Talk:Palestine (region)/Archive 1

Talk:Palestine Archive 1
This page is for personal opinions or experiences on the issue of Palestine. Rationale: /Talk really should be for discussion about how to improve the page, which a lot of the below does not really fit under. On the other hand, a lot of the material below is interesting and relevant, and so should be kept somewhere. Furthermore, stuff on /Talk tends to get cleaned out every now and then, so it doesn't become too cluttered; this page should be more permanent. -

1998 marks the 50th anniversary of the Nakba (cataclysm). In human terms, that year saw the mass deportation of a million Palestinians from their cities and villages, massacres of civilians, and the razing to the ground of hundreds of Palestinian villages. In commemoration of these capital events in Palestine history, the Khalil Sakakini Cultural Center brings you this visual tribute:

http://www.alnakba.org/

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As a Jew it greatly shames me to see the evils perpetrated by Israel in the name of Judaism. However, I derive some consolation in knowing that one day the Palestinians will have a national museum - let's call it An Nakba - which will commemorate their suffering at the hands of the Jews, just as the Israelis have Yad Vashem and other museums to commemorate the Jews' suffering in the Holocaust. Foreign dignatories visiting the Middle East will, as is usual, be taken to Yad Vashem for wreath-laying ceremonies and to be told that we must all ensure that such evils never happen again. And then these same foreign dignatories will leave Israel on their way to what will then be Palestine to be escorted around the An Nakba museum where they will see photographs and newspaper cuttings by people people like Fisk (Independent), Hass/Levy (Ha'aretz) and Goldenberg (Guardian) and no doubt they will wonder at how the world leaders and the Israeli public were happy to let it all to ha! ppen, especially given such full and wide media coverage of events. And, remembering their recent visit to Yad Vashem a couple of days earlier, they will probably despair at the failure of man to learn from history.

Martin Rubenstein

martinrubenstein@hotmail.com Manchester, UK - Saturday, April 14, 2001 at 14:44:47 (IDT) -

It is with great pain that we continue to see violence in the Holy Land. Hear is my story if you are interested: I am a Palestinian, who was born in Jerusalem in 1963, my family left for Canada after the 1967 (Six-Day War) conflict. I have been here in Canada since I was 4 & half years old (thank you Canada for providing sanctuary).

I present a different view (Canadian/Christian Arab). I am saddened & angry that this is happening in the Holy Land. I suggest that a UN peacekeeping force be sent down immediately, to restore law & order. Then a full inquiry begun. The next phase should be full implementation of the various UN Resolutions (with free elections for all Palestinians worldwide afterwards, administered by the UN), I know I did not get to vote last time. At least that way we could have a chance to affect the extremist Palestinian groups opposed to peace. Surely this cannot be seen as Israel bashing. Following these steps might start the slow steps to peace. Remember that the main problem is the Arabs view Israeli Defense Forces as an occupying power, maybe UN peacekeepers can be more effective and humane.

For what it is worth I really do not hate Jews or any other group of people, but I really loath Zionism and what it has done to separate generations of families like my own all over the world (I have family in every part of the world except the Far East). We Palestinians bleed like anyone else, have feelings like anyone else, and demand our rights like anyone else. There must be a better way to deal with mob violence than shooting and killing. If the Israelis could embrace Palestinians they would find loyal, helpful allies and no one could threaten them again.

I pray for the Peace Now movement, and hope to one day to show my children the land of my birth that I cannot live in now.

I did not ask to become a refugee, I have not seen some family members for over twenty years, they are now scared to death in their homes from extremists on both sides (like prisoners, is that not a shame).

People that blindly support Israel & her policies, should, perhaps ask people like me what they mean in reality. Please help, promote peace!

BTW: In my immediate family we have refugees from each stage of the ALNAKBA 1948 (my parents), 1967 (my sister & myself), and after 1967 (my brother who was born in Oct. 1967, he came to Canada when he was one and a half months old). There is not many Uncles & Aunts left alive, & my Grandparents all have died without ever seeing their homeland again. For my Grandparents & Parents, it was twice in a lifetime that they lost everything.

Joseph E. Saad (Proud Canadian, Palestinian refugee)

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================================================================================ To the person who wrote this, please, if you want to comment on my views, or my intentions, or my statements, please, do it out side of my letters / comments, do not insert statemnts in my letter / comments that may make it unclear, or misleading, I think that is unfair. If you have questions ask, & I will answer, with respect and civility, if you are rude and insulting I will ignmore you & edit out offending things in my statements. now I will answer your original comments.

Joseph October 3, 2001 --
 * Garbage. Recent polls from Palestinian groups show that a full 50% of the Palestinians support the absolute destruction of the Israel, and the expulsion of most Jews. This is reproted in Palestinian newspapers. If you support this position, admit it. If you reject it, admit it.  But do not mislead people by claiming that Palestianins want peace.  You obviously speak for a minority, and represent no one but yourself.

Answer: Who conducted these polls, what parts of the population were asked?? The large silent majority of Palestinians live outside the territories. We are silenced & kept out, the ones that you see are for the most part the most vulnerable, who have not had chances for a proper education, or have not known anything other than military occupation. I think that blanket statements that all persons of a certain group follow the dictates of a visible minority is wrong, dangerous, and borders on racism. For example no one asked me, my family, or others I know are Palestinian.

Joseph Oct-2001


 * How can you be a refugee if you have a country? You are making up your own definition of the word that even the UN rejects. By your definition, almost all Jews in the USA are refugees from European countries. Believe what you like, but don't rewrite the dictionary.

Answer: For your information here is the dictionary meaning of a refugee, there are no time limits or restrictions on being one BTW-

(From previous discussion) Yes yes I have had this argument before, no I am a refugee, I came here as one, because my family earned a Canadian citizenship, does not make me less one in any way shape or form, my Canadian passport even says born in Palestinian (refugee). this is actually what happenned to me & my family:

Oxford Dictionary of Current English (1998):

Refugee: person taking refuge, esp. in a foreign country, from war, persecution, or natural disaster.

Just because I lived in Canada since I was four and a half years old, does not lessen the fact that I have no homeland, anymore that existed before the 1967 war. Thank God for Canada. Joseph (Proud Canadian, Palestinian Refugee)


 * Neither did over 600,000 Jews. But Jews accepted Jewish refugees and helped each other.  Don't blame the Jews for the fact that Arabs all over the middle east imprisioned Palestinians and treated them like animals.

Look I am not going to get in to a he said she said thing, I am sure I can find lots of controversy, if I wanted. The fact remains now that Palestinians have no homeland, the Jewish people do. TRue the Arab countries mercilessly used and abused them, and true even maybe they did some things to be reviled against, but remember, also so did the Stern and Irgun gang. No one is innocent in this, that is for sure. Also Jewish people were actively courted out of these countries, which they had lived in with no problems for centuries.

Joseph October 2001

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-- RK's comments on Arab alliance with Hitler, and apology for Jewish terrorism:
 * As a result, Arab governments in the surround areas became increasingly opposed to further Jewish emigration to Palestine. The Palestinian religious leadership aligned itself with Adolph Hitler, and pledged to help in the campaign to exterminate the Jews. The British government wavered frequently, at one moment supported the Palestinians and at the next moment supporting the Jews. No matter which position the British adopted, they experienced armed opposition from either side. The Palestinians would frequently riot or massacre Jewish communities. To a smaller extent, some Jewish terrorist groups launched attacks against the British. However, the Jewish attacks were only launched against military targets and soliders - never againt civilians. The Jewish groups telephoned the British in advance when they planned to bomb a building, so that the British would have time to evacuate their people.

Nowhere in here is an "apology" for Jewish terrorism. It just is a comparison with Palestinian terrorism. Palestinians target civilians and use bombs to blow-up shopping malls. The small number of Jewish groups who engaged in terrorism, in contrast, telephoned in advance and only struck military targets. Those who do not see a moral difference are themselves simply advocating the indiscriminate murder of Jews, something that many on this forum evidently have no problem with.
 * You are apologising for Jewish terrorism -- you are saying it is somehow morally different from Palestinian terrorism. Terrorism is wrong, no matter who does it, Arab or Jew. They only attacked military targets? I may be mistaken, but wasn't the King David Hotel headquarters of the civilian British administration? And what about the assasination of Count Folke Bernadotte by the Stern gang? Bernadotte was a civilian. And, if only attacking military targets makes Jewish terrorism okay, I suppose when Palestinians kill Israeli soldiers there is nothing wrong with that?
 * Finally, who here has advocated the indiscriminate murder of Jews? No one to my knowledge here has been advocating the indiscriminate murder of anybody. -- Simon J Kissane

- Evaluation from a Palestinian perspective, which someone removed from main article:

Evaluation
From a Palestinian perspective

Remember that before the beginning of the 1948 war, the Zionists had already captured the Arab quarters of west Jerusalem and Jaffa and destroyed dozens of Arab villages; as well as the Deir Yassin massacre. The Zionists really started it -- it was not the Arabs who had the weapons & the training, it was the Zionists, with the Irgun & Stern gangs. Remember if Israel suffers from terrorism now, it is because she herself was founded on terror & injustice.

Also how could they be asked to sacrifice their homeland for a people who wanted to make Israel, as Chaim Weizmann said: ...finally establish such a society in Palestine that Palestine shall be as Jewish as England is English, or America is American.

There was no room there for the Palestinians, Israel from the start never wanted Peace, but pieces of the land, till it was all theirs.

It is often stated that if the Palestinians had accepted partition, they wouldn't have lost even more of their territory in the war. Eamon De Valera, president of Ireland, saw clearly that this was impossible. To one visitor who had solicited his support for partition he replied: I read the Old Testament many years ago. I am afraid I have forgotten many things I read; but one passage I recall clearly. It is the story of Solomon's judgement of the two women who desired the same baby. I remember how when Solomon ruled that the baby be divided the real mother screamed, "No! No! Give the baby to the other woman!" That is my answer to partition. The rightful owners of a country will never agree to partition.

The dispute over who gets sovereignty in Palestine will not be resolved easily.


 * Israel's claims to the West Bank, Gaza, etc. (the "occupied territories") has been rejected by the UN and the major nations.


 * The Arab people known as "Palestinians" consider themselves at war to regain the occupied territories and are willing to use terrorism.


 * When Israel retaliates for Palestinian terrorism, Palestinians and their supporters describe Israeli retalition in aggressive terms like "attack", "incursion" and so on. Thus, any Israeli counterattack for Palestinian aggression is deemed a fresh provocation


 * Further terrorism by Palestinians is justified as retaliation for the Israeli "aggression", and the cycle continues.

I conclude that while neither side budges from its position, peace is impossible without one side conquering the other outright.

--Ed Poor

- - Talk continues at: Archive 2