Talk:Palestinian Arabic/Archive 1

Palestine
If I understand correctly, Palestine is not Israel, it is territory that consists of the West Bank and the Gaza strip. Well, i'm trying to learn Palestinian Arabic.

and Arabic in general.

Gringo300 11:52, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Please review Palestine (region). Tom e rtalk  19:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm now under the impression that Jordan was also a part of what was called Palestine, but I'm not exactly sure. I've countless times read/heard that Palestine was partitioned into a Jewish state and an Arab state. Gringo300 (talk) 19:51, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone recently added "most Jordanians" to the list of speakers. Is this really right? It is sometimes said that, in Jordan, native Jordanians are now outnumbered by expatriate West Bank Palestinians, which would make this true in a sense; but I understood that the speech of native Jordanians was closer to Saudi/Bedouin. Can someone with the necessary knowledge please clarify? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 10:41, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Palestinian Arabic different from Israeli Arabic?
Someone used the term "Israeli Arabic" in an article, and wikilinked it. It was a redlink, so I made it into a redirect to Palestinian Arabic. Is there a significant difference between the Arabic spoken inside the green line as opposed to in Yesh"a? Also, some time ago, I was given to understand that Israeli-Arab schoolchildren are taught Arabic but written in Hebrew letters.  I don't remember where I heard it, but it wasn't in the context of Jewish children learning Judæo-Arabic.  Anyone else heard of this, and if so, does anyone have a citable source for it, and is it a sufficiently widespread phenom for it to warrant inclusion in this article?  Tom e rtalk  20:20, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I haven't heard anything about teaching Arabic in Hebrew letters (that actually sounds pretty weird). As for the original question whether there is a significant difference between dialects, there are clear differences in dialects across Palestine/Israel but this is rather irrelevant to the green line and more to do with the geographic origin of the speaker. For example, an Arab from Haifa or Akko may have a slight slant to their accent that resembles a Lebanese accent. An Arab from Jerusalem, Ramallah, or Jaffa, would probably share similar accents if the speakers are from the same social class (like London English, different social classes or urban vs rural people have slightly differing accents). Speakers from Gaza may have a tinge of Egyptian slant to their accents. Bedouin Arabs, being descended from original Arab tribes, have their own accents. Then of course there are the Nablus and Hebron areas, where natives of these towns have rather distinct accents that are different from any of their surroundings (and as one can imagine, makes great fodder for stereotype-derived jokes about them - but that's for another article - after having a few beers first). Ramallite (talk) 23:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I would suggest removal of the segment of this article which claims that Israeli Arab schoolchildren (who are Palestinian, by the way) are taught Arabic written in Hebrew letters. It is true that Israelis sometimes transliterate Arabic with Hebrew letters, but any sensible person will realize that the children referenced actually speak Arabic. Readers may not know that the educational system separates Arabic speakers, that is Arab Christian and Muslim students from Israeli Jewish students. Among the frustrations of Wikipedia are such presentations of questions/opinions in what ought to be factual articles.

The topic is supposed to be the Palestinian dialect of Arabic. Yet the discussion morphs into details of the way that Israeli Hebrew speakers learn Arabic as a second language. Bear in mind, they may learn fusHa and also some Palestinian dialect. Also, yes, there should be a better understanding of the differences between Arabic as spoken in Gaza and the Egyptian dialect - there are similarities and distinctions.
 * Yes, I'm a bit puzzled by the teaching Arabic in Hebrew letters. As Ramallite said, there are geographical differences throughout historic Palestine in spoken dialects. Gazans sound a little Egyptian, Beitjalis sound weird in a cool sort of way and Akkawis sound just weird (to me). And this doesn't in any way correspond to the green line. However, I remember reading (years ago) about the Arabic of Israeli Arabs being marked by use of Hebrew words and phrases (essentially as code-switching or ad hoc borrowings); I may be able to dig up the book I read that in but more likely not, I'll see. Israeli Arabic does also sound a bit ambiguous, as it could refer to the Arabic spoken by Palestinian citizens of Israel, or that spoken by Israelis from Arab countries, or both together (not that, as far as I know, they really have anything in common). Of course, the learnt Arabic used by some Israelis can be quite distinctive as well especially in accent (Israelis seem to have a big problem with haa (7) in particular - I wonder does this also apply to israelis of sephardic origin?). Palmiro | Talk 21:41, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, for example the Hebrew word 'b'seder' (okay) is common usage now among Arabic speakers, and more so are words like machsoum (checkpoint) and ramzon (traffic light). Hebrew speakers have also picked up a lot of Arabic words, like sababa (cool as in dude) and most swear words. Ashkenazim have a difficult time pronouncing the Arabic/Hebrew ع/ע, which they pronounce 'a' instead of the more guttural sound for 'ayn', as well the 'haa' (ح/ח) which they pronounce 'kh'. So 7umos becomes choumos, etc. I have heard some Sephardic speakers who do pronounce the original sounds of these letters though. Ramallite (talk) 23:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I have no difficulty with either ע or ח but I know a lot of ppl do. Unless the difficulty Ashkenazim have pronouncing these 2 sounds has in some way influenced Arabic as spoken by Israeli Arabs, however, I don't think it's particularly relevant.  What I'd like to see is if we can't find someone more familiar with linguistics that we could consult to help us out w/ a genuine study on the subject, so that we can sort this out, and perhaps make Israeli Arabic a subsection of this article, if not an independent article of its own.  I'd suggest User:Mustafaa, but he seems to be on indefinite hiatus.  Any other ideas?  Tom e rtalk  08:03, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Not in school where they are taught writen arabic but almost all classes for spoken arabic are taught uisng Hebrew letters. Very simple if you think about it. There is an agreed upon "ta'atik" Zeq 08:53, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Zeq, understand that this reply isn't a response to your recent unjustified, unfounded and unsourced antagonism against me, but do you have any citable sources to back this position? Thanks.  Tom e rtalk  09:49, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about ? where did I antagonized you. ? Are you taking personaly any vote any subject ? if so you should not be editing Wikipdeia. Zeq 10:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am taking your vote against me on RfA personally, especially because it wasn't supported by anything I view as a substantive rationale for opposition to my ability to perform the duties of adminship properly. Tom e rtalk  10:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

As for sources: Go to any book store. ask for a "Hebrew to spoken arabic" dictionary. There are plenty such books. I am really surprised that on such a lame subject (I was really trying to help you) you are attacking me with such an attitude. BTW, do people that know you know what you are doing here ? Zeq 10:20, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 * It's amazing you should be surprised at my taking offense. It's also amazing that you should regard my protest against your position as an "attack" against you, especially in the light of the nature of your attacks against me.  I'm here to improve article content, you seem to be here to improve article compliance with your viewpoint.  Tom e rtalk  10:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I just found out that confused you with another user with similar user name who is in Israel . I should not have voted against you. So I apologize if that my vote has offended you. Zeq 10:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh, what comfort. I hope you'll understand the lack of comfort I take in this confession.  Perhaps in the future you'll actually study what you're talking about before you engage in virulent lashon hara against other users.  I can forgive you for being ignorant, but I can only barely begin to forgive you for speaking lashon hara against me as though your position were actually somehow well-studied.  I give you mechila for your opposition to my candidacy, but you seriously need to be more careful about the stances you take wrt your fellow editors.  Tom e rtalk  10:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Returning to the substantive point, colloquial or dialect Arabic is often written in the characters of another alphabet when presented for the use of speakers of another language, either for the good reason that that makes it a lot easier for them to learn it, or on the basis of the ludicrously inaccurate contention that the Arabic alphabet can´t represent it accurately. You can see this with French or English language grammars of various Arabic dialects as well as with dictionaries. However, colloquial Arabic, in my experience, is always written in Arabic letters when written by Arabs for Arabs. A look at the cartoons in any Arabic newspaper - which almost always use dialect in the dialogue boxes - will confirm this. I would be suprised if this was different in Israel. Palmiro | Talk 04:15, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 * At the risk of going increasingly off-topic, I should qualify my last comment that this doesn't apply when dealing with media that don't accept or correctly deal with Arabic input, leading to the frequent use of Roman characters in text messages, internet chat etc, adapted by the use of numbers to represent letters that don't exist in the Roman alphabet (7 for haa and 3 for `ain being the most common). This is somtimes still used where the technology has developed to accept Arabic input. But I don't think Palestine on either side of the green line is any more or less marked by this phenomenon than elsewhere. Palmiro | Talk 15:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

In Arabic-language Israeli schools children are taught to write Arabic in the Arabic alphabet. In Hebrew-language Israeli schools, children are taught literary Arabic in the Arabic alphabet, but are usually spoken Arabic in a diacritically augmented Hebrew alphabet. From the middle ages up till modern times, Jews employed the Hebrew alphabet to record most of the languages they spoke, be it Spanish, German, French, Italian, Aramaic, Arabic or Persian. Al-ustaaz.

Thank you for setting the record straight ya ustaaz. As someone who taught in both Jewish and (Bedouin) Arab schools in Israel, let me confirm that Arabic is most certainly NOT taught in Arabic schools with Hebrew letters. The use of Hebrew letters to teach colloquial Arabic is, incidentally, encouraged by Arabs who teach the colloquial Arabic. Like most Arabs, they view the colloquial as a corruption of the literary Arabic and regard the writing of colloquial Arabic using Arabic letters as detrimental to the acquisition of "proper" Arabic.--Kishkushim 20:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Samaria
Is the use of the term 'samaria' as an alternative for 'West Bank' really appropriate in an article on Palestinian Arabic? Luqman لقمان
 * I believe Samaria is the general historic name for the region, which only gained a political tone in the last 40 or so years. Moreover, I don't think that Arabic has a notable and all-encompassing term for the region. Cheers,  Tewfik Talk 18:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * But do Arabs actually refer to the area as 'Samaria?' According to the Wikipedia Samaria article "سامريّون Sāmariyyūn" is "...commonly called in Arabic جبال نابلس Jibal Nablus" and "Samaria is used by people who want to emphasize Israel's and the Jewish people's relationship with the land." However relevant that emphasis may be in an article dealing with Israeli or Jewish topics, it seems to me that it would be most appropriate to use the arabic term for the area in an article dealing with the dialect of arabic
 * spoken there. I suggest that the alternative be changed to Jibal Nablus. --لقمانLuqman 02:18, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

That refers to the area around Nablus specifically, while Samaria (I think) has a wider meaning. Cheers,  Tewfik Talk 19:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

-mā prefix
If it's a prefix, shouldn't it be mā-? Cbdorsett 13:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

You know know what, come to think of it, both a preceding hyphen and a following hyphen are incorrect. The mā is used before the verb, but it is not a word that is typically conjoined in literary Arabic. So what I've done is to simply put it in quotation marks. Let me know what you think... --Kishkushim 20:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the best thing is to give actual examples showing the difference between Bedouin Arabic and the general levantine pronunciation. "mā ba'rif" vs. "mā ba'rifsh." In Standard Arabic, of course, "mā" is a separate particle, so it's not an affix at all. However, when you write "dialects," sometimes the absolute rules bend, since there are no generally accepted rules of spelling. And since alif is a non-connecting letter, you can't really tell if it's intended to be adjoined to the following word. Latin letters make it a bit easier. We might easily find examples as I have written them above, but what about the second person? Should it be "mābta'rifsh" or "mā bta'rifsh"? Cbdorsett 06:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I edited the article and changed prefix to particle as per your recommendation. Thanks. For the second person, the Bedouin in the Negev would indeed tend to use "mā bta'rif", as in "inte mā bta'rif 'ibrāni zayyna". --Kishkushim 19:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Beseder
The modern Hebrew expression "beseder" is not influenced by Palestinian Arabic or at least this is widely doubted. Indeed, "beseder" rather seems to be a litteral translation of the German "in Ordnung", which is frequently used and has the same meaning. (You know how many of those who learned Ivrit had German as mother tongue and how few knew just a single word of Arabic.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.52.173.41 (talk) 11:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

I'm Palestinian, but i never heard "Beseder" in the Palestinian dialect, neither "Mazgan": they are much more hebrew words and nearly no one uses them in everyday use. Shamenet is a brand of high-fat sour cream, but does not replace the sour cream, which is always called "Laban". Pelefon is also the name of the first mobile company in israel, and the word got its way to describe any cellular/mobile phone

Is it really pronounced 'Pelephone' and not 'Belephone?' In my smallest experience, Palestinians have a very hard time making the P sound and will substitute the B. ALso regarding B'seder - Ivrit was derived from German and French. Not the words, which are from classical Hebrew or Arabic roots, but the "logic" of the language. Not being a linguist, I don't know the name for this, but, for example if a Potato is called an Earth Apple in French or German, chances are it will be called on in Ivrit. 82.81.104.93 21:47, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Beseder is actually not a German word. It's a word derived from the Hebrew word SEDER, which is the meal that people set for holidays. It’s a Hebrew expression that has no connection to German or Yiddish. I just want to clarify this in case someone reads this and believes what you have to say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aviramelior (talk • contribs) 13:12, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Of course it's not a German word, and it is derived from SEDER, but the origin of that word is not the passover meal - it's the other way around. "Seder" means "order", so bseder means "in order", as "all is in order." Regarding the meals - the passover seder has a very specific order of rituals, hence - seder. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.138.81.98 (talk) 18:28, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) The article did not say that Hebrew "beseder" was influenced by Palestinian Arabic, but rather the opposite: Israeli Arabs, speaking Arabic, borrowed this term from Hebrew.
 * 2) The word is Hebrew, "in order", as the last contributor said. But its use may be regarded as a calque on German "alles in Ordnung" or its Yiddish equivalent: it does not occur with that meaning in older Hebrew literature. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 08:57, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Difference between Arabic in the West Bank and Gaza

 * It seems natural that there should be one, yet it isn't mentioned in the article? Funkynusayri (talk) 06:36, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * In Gaza it is Outer Southern Levantine Arabic, which is a different dialect than Palestinian Arabic spoken in the West Bank.GreyShark (dibra) 18:22, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Differences between Palestinian and other forms of Levantinian Arabic
I'm not quite sure that PA is more different from other varitions of LA than both dialects of Iraqi Arabic, say Baghdadi and Tigris, are different from each other. I think that all of this article is realy pseudo academic -there is no realy such thing as Palestinian dialect. The uniqueness of PA arabic is not enough notable to regard it even as a distinguish dialect. There is a series of articles here with one goal to create the false impression that Palestinians are well distinguished ethnic group within the Arab nations while many Palestinians are not Arabs at all and if there is a Palestiniane nation than it start formed no earlier than 100-150 years ago.


 * The point is that Levantine Arabic is a continuum, but there are slight differences between North Syrian, South Syrian, Lebanese and Israeli/Palestinian speech, as one would expect, and further local divisions even within Palestinian. This is worthy of study, and has been studied by Israeli Jewish academics: it does not imply any political stance. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 08:59, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Palestinian Arabic, though it is part of the Levantine dialect continuum, does display features unique to it such as the use of eshi for "thing" (as opposed to shey or hâga,) use of eysh for "what" (as opposed to shu or ey) and several other features mentioned in the article. In fact, in certain ways, PA differs from the surrounding Arabic varieties far more than American English does from British English.


 * Moreover, the distinctiveness of a particular form of a language does not necessarily have anything to do with its speakers' political or cultural affiliation. Otherwise Bavarians (who speak a form of German which many other Germans find unintelligible) would constitute a separate nation from Germany.Szfski (talk) 23:58, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[[file:Yellowbadge logo.svg|100px|right|link=Antisemitism]]

The only agenda I see here is that of a scum Jew trying to deny and suppress Palestinian identity. Guinsberg (talk) 08:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Did this person seriously just write "scum Jew"? Seriously? Dan ☺ 12:24, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Palestinian Aramaic
For the anonymous vandal, the Aramaic varieties spoken in ancient and medieval Palestine were called "Palestinian" Jewish Aramaic and "Palestinian" Christian Aramaic, not "Judeo". All the linguistic sources agree on this. Stop removing "Palestinian" from those names. --Taivo (talk) 13:03, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Edits by anon
A string of edits, all reverted, first by and now by  have been close to vandalism. I think it is fairly clear that the IP is the same as the user, though I am unsure what to do about it. The IP has been blocked twice, first for 3 days and then for a week, but persists, in multiple articles, making the same exact nonsense edit over and over. These edits all should and are being reverted, but does anybody have a suggestion on what to do about such persistence?  nableezy  - 07:52, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I asked that the page receive protection against anon IPs, but my request was rejected because the level of vandalism didn't rise to some mysterious level of annoyance. --Taivo (talk) 14:57, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Since we've got a second anon IP vandalizing now, I've requested page protection again. --Taivo (talk) 23:34, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Dialect vs Accent
When speaking of differing dialects I think it's important to distinguish between dialect and accent. While these distinctions aren't always neat and exact, generally, two speakers of a language have a different accent if they pronounce (some of) the same words differently. Different dialects involve the general use of different words, phrases, and constructs but normally people who speak different dialects of the same language can understand one another well (though, in some cases, Arabic maybe one of those exceptions, but some may argue that 'Arabic' should be broken up into different languages). People who speak different languages normally can not understand one another well or at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.109.144.159 (talk) 02:52, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

"Palestinian Arabic contain features that appear to resemble their classical Hebrew counterparts"
in the article apeared this following statement: "This scenario may also be consistent with the fact that the rural dialects of Palestinian Arabic contain features that appear to resemble their classical Hebrew counterparts."

the obvious question that comes up from this claim is according to what it was decided that it was influenced by classical Hebrew centuries ago and not by Modern Hebrew in the last century, which seems much more likely, if it was influenced by hebrew at all? since there is no source for this statment I deleted it for now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.11.193 (talk) 00:04, 26 May 2013 (UTC)