Talk:Pallacanestro Treviso

This is unreadable. Sounds like a Babelfish translation

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Confusion between Pallacanestro Treviso and Universo Treviso Basket
It's ridiculous that this has lasted so long. Besides the sources that I linked on the Pallacanestro Treviso page, I have found this statement from the Italian Basketball Federation who organises the championship, you can't get more official than that: see here (starts at DELIBERA N.4/2012). I don't know how google translates it so I'll give you a quick rundown:
 * Confusion between two distinct clubs, Universo Treviso Basket (official website) and Pallacanestro Treviso (official website). --IM-yb (talk) 16:46, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Hello, Bluesangrel bodly and wrongly moved the article Pallacanestro Treviso to Universo Treviso Basket and edited the article accordingly to present the second club as a continuation of the first.
 * As that is not the case (they are separate entities that are still both in activity) I moved the page back to its original article, as most of the article referred to that club, deleting the rest.
 * However there is now no history for that page (apart from the changes I've made) as it has stayed on the Universo Treviso Basket page, as the changes made after a point all pertained to cited club (Universo) the history is split, the part which would have to be moved to *:Pallacanestro Treviso is everything BEFORE:
 * [] --ArmstrongJulian (talk) 16:53, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * That edit was made by 'Chris the speller' at 04:48, 7 March 2014. The history across that supposed divide point is continuous: see this diff Currently there is no history at page Universo Treviso Basket, and all the history is at Pallacanestro Treviso. I am not a football fan. I know nothing about Italian football, and I cannot see which edits after 04:48, 7 March 2014 are about club Pallacanestro Treviso and which are about club Universo Treviso Basket. Best to edit page Pallacanestro Treviso to make it correct for club Pallacanestro Treviso, and start a new page at Universo Treviso Basket describing club Universo Treviso Basket. Universo Treviso Basket says "In the summer of 2012, the club [presumably Pallacanestro Treviso] in its then current state was dissolved due to financial debts. A club called Treviso Basket was then formed under new ownership and retained the club's rights." But you wrote that club Pallacanestro Treviso still exists and is active alongside club Universo Treviso Basket. Please what is the current situation? If Universo Treviso Basket was formed from all or most of the same men as were in Pallacanestro Treviso, then there is some reason to say that Universo Treviso Basket is a continuation of Pallacanestro Treviso under another name. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:41, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The club retained all of the rights of the original club. So it is the same club, just with a different name. It is like how if an NBA team changes owners and changes it's name, but it is still the same team. There is really no need to change the article, since it is still the same club, having retained the rights of the original club. It simply became a new club, the same way that an NBA team like the Minneapolis Lakers became a new club when it became the LA Lakers, or Philadelphia Warriors became a new club when it became the San Francisco Warriors. Only in this case, the club did not even move. Unless you want to make a new article because the club ended completely like how the Seattle Supersonics ended when they became the Thunder, because the Thunder retained their rights, but chose not to use them. But this club retains the rights and chooses to use them. So it's not the same thing. A club merging into another club, by retaining its rights, should not mean the original club ceased to exist. Not when that new club is actually using the original club's rights just to exist. It's just adding more needless articles to constantly make a new entry for every a time a team in Europe merges with the rights of the same team. Rather than simply acknowledge the name change and history change in the history and name section of the club. If we want to change to a new article every time a new ownership gets a team's rights, then there will be dozens of new entries for teams in Europe, and probably just in Italy alone. It's really not logical.Bluesangrel (talk) 19:21, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Currently Universo Treviso Basket redirects to Pallacanestro Treviso, which still seems to say that the club is still called Pallacanestro Treviso. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:25, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Just to make it 100% clear Pallacanestro Treviso (commonly called Benetton Basket) did not have debts whatsoever, the owner Benetton simply decided (in advance) to withdraw from professional basketball. However it still exists as a youth club and rightly claims the titles and history won by the professional side in the past (see the official website). Universo Basket Treviso is not a continuation of the club, what it did try to do in 2012 was to buy the sporting license (titolo sportivo) of Benetton Basket to play in the first division, this is allowed to happen in Italy but is different from an NBA franchise relocating. In effect the club that buys the license has the right to play in the division that the selling club was playing in, that does not mean in also inherits the latter's trophies and history, that can sometimes happpen but always after a bankruptcy/auction of those (which again, wasn't the case here). So both clubs coexist, I created the redirect at Universo Treviso Basket (whose website states it creation and history from 2012) to avoid a blank page or a deletion discussion for the time being. The notablity of the new side is unclear, it's now in the second division but has never been in the first division and generated next to no english press in its short existence. Bluesangrel made the edit in good faith but without sources for the statement (original research), if he or another wants to expand/create the Universo Basket Treviso article separately then the history could be used, in effect anything after his first edit on the now Pallacanestro Treviso article pertains to this new club.
 * Sorry for the rambling explanation, I hope its clear enough. --ArmstrongJulian (talk) 12:26, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * It seems that someone who knows more than me about the situation, should put in page Universo Treviso Basket a description of Universo Treviso Basket's current situation. I see no need for page moving or history-splitting Anthony Appleyard (talk) 12:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * In a nutshell there are different and coexisting clubs, hence they can not be on the same article which was the case when the page was originally moved. I reverted the move, put the sources to explain but that leaves the new page blank. The history AFTER this diff only concerns the new (Universo Treviso Basket) article.--ArmstrongJulian (talk) 12:38, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The current version of Pallacanestro Treviso says "In February 2011, the Benetton family announced they would be withdrawing their support for professional basketball, effectively calling time on Treviso's top flight status if no other backer could be found". That was over 4 years ago; what has happened since? Has a new backer for Pallacanestro Treviso been found? Or what has happened? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:25, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * There seems to be plenty information (in Italian, if you can work Google Translater) in it:Pallacanestro Treviso and it:Universo Treviso Basket. Google Translater translates it:Universo Treviso Basket as "''Following the withdrawal of Basketball Treviso from Serie A due to the abandonment by the Benetton family, under the initiative of Riccardo Pittis, Claudio Coldebella and other ex-players of Treviso is constituted the Consortium Universe Treviso, with the ' intention of giving continuity to a historical society. After some significant defections, he left the idea of ​​a popular shareholding on the model of other companies (football) English and Spanish. Raising money is left from the base of fans through the Facebook page Treviso "I am here" [1], a campaign that has seen the creation of the world of video in which former players, coaches, managers, friends and fans They expressed their solidarity to the project. The company was officially founded July 4, 2012 with the name of Treviso Basketball 2012 srl, with the intent to acquire the sports law by Verde Sport (company of the Benetton family who contests, however, such a handover). The new company introduced its composition, with the four members of the team, Stefano Bands, Stefano Bottari, Mark and Matthew Fabbrini and Gianantonio Tramet and the Universe Treviso Consortium, composed of companies of local entrepreneurs, represented by Riccardo Pittis guarantor. The President of the newborn association is Paul Vazzoler. The Federation Council, heard the report of Comtec and professional leagues recognized, however, he gave a negative opinion for admission to the professional league of the company 2012-2013 Serie A Basketball Treviso spa. The Treviso Basketball starts well from the lower divisions, noting the youth by Verde Sport, with the Under-19 promoted to the first team. Sponsored by the group De 'Longhi, the company starts from basketball season, serving as an element of continuity to carry on the tradition of Basketball Treviso. The team retains much of the fans previously belonging to the Benetton basketball, scoring repeatedly sold out (over 1000 people) to plant the "Natatorio". The activity retention of Treviso basketball is realized with the use in official competitions of some basketball players of the past of Treviso (Iacopini, Minto, Pittis, Nicevic, etc.). In its first year after the re-establishment, May 30, 2013, the Company won the Championship promotion, beating in the final play-off double the POL San Giorgio Quinto [2]. At the end of the season the team is entered as a wild card to the National Division B, fourth level of the Italian league. [3] The De 'Longhi close the regular season in 4th place in the group, but is eliminated immediately in the first round at the hands of the APU Udine. On 30 June 2014, the Company organized a press conference that defines the future of Treviso Basketball for the 2014-2015 season: Treviso militerà in Series A2 Silver (after an agreement with the BNB Torrevento Corato) with the change of name in Treviso Basketball Universe. In April 2014, after winning the championship of A2 silver is promoted for the 2015-2016 season in the championship of A2 Gold.''". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:41, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, I am just going by the fact that the club Treviso was an actual club "Pallacanestro Treviso", and Benneton had nothing to do with it, other than they were the family that owned the club. They stopped owning the club and refused to pay something for it, I can't remember what it was now, it was either the register of the club, taxes, or something, and thus the club had to be sent to lower divisions by law. Benneton has no relation other than it was a sponsor, because they owned a business being called Benneton Group, and as the family owned the club, they called it "Benneton Treviso" for marketing reasons. But the club itself was Pallacanestro Treviso, or Basket Treviso, which existed before they even owned the club. See, they bought the rights to the previous club, and changed the name of it, simply because they were the new owners. Then they simply said they did not want to own the club anymore and they relinquished the rights of the club, Treviso Basket, or Pallacanestro Treviso in Italian, to a new group of owners. The new owners then changed to a new name. The club went down into a lower division simply because the previous owners, the Benneton family had stopped payments that they were required to do on the team, and under Italian law the team's are automatically sent down to the lower divisions. However, it is still the same club. As far as their being a youth section for Pallacanestro Treviso separately, that's a totally different issue and irrelevant, as many clubs have completely separate and non connected youth amateur sections that are not connected to a professional club. It's actually very common. So, OK, now we have two separate articles for what is actually the same club. I have no problem with it, if they want to divide it up that way I guess, but at least in the articles, make a note that it actually is a continuation of the same club, and not make it like it is a separate club. Because even if they are claiming it is a different club, it actually is not. Let's say if the club's owners are claiming it is a different club, which, as the owners, they could claim whatever they wanted - it still is the same club. So it should still be at least acknowledged.Bluesangrel (talk) 17:20, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * If so, then a history-split of page Pallacanestro Treviso is not needed, and anyway is impossible because in page Pallacanestro Treviso text about Pallacanestro Treviso and text about Universo Treviso Basket is so well mixed that no history-splitting can separate them; page Universo Treviso Basket has one edit, which is a redirect. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:04, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * -both Treviso Basket s.r.l. (Universo Basket Treviso) and Pallacanestro Benetton Treviso s.p.a. asked for admission in the 2012-13 Serie A, with Benetton making their request on 31.05.2012 before withdrawing it on 05.07.2012.
 * -Treviso Basket asked to take over Benetton Treviso's sporting title (that gives them the right to play in Serie A, nothing else)
 * -Benetton Treviso is still affiliated to the federation, is registered for the youth championship and continues its sporting activity ("continuando a svolgere attività sportiva")
 * -Treviso Basket is a days-old society
 * -The federation decided to study the request of Treviso Basket as a new affiliation ("nuova affiliazione").

Bluesangrel, you were completely wrong, you had no sources for your claims and really the wikipedia policy that lets unsourced claims can be inserted so easily is flawed, but that's another story. To return to the subject, here's a rundown of the problems the move created:
 * -Quite a few links that should lead to Pallacanestro Treviso have been rerouted to Universo Basket Treviso
 * -There's a redirect from Universo Basket Treviso to Pallacanestro Treviso (which I had to do to avoid a blank page and the above cited links being voided).
 * -The history is split between what concerns Pallacanestro Treviso and what concerns Universo Treviso Basket, again the split starts from Bluesangrel first edit
 * As for the solution I'm not sure, it's clearly easier to create a mess than to clean it, if a search and replace function exists than all links to Universo Basket Treviso should be replaced by Pallacanestro Treviso. Otherwise it should be a manual edit which I don't particularly want to do. For now we have to leave the redirect but it's an untruth, if Basket Treviso becomes notable enough to warrant its own article (it might already) then all the links would have to be changed and the redirect deleted as they are different clubs. --ArmstrongJulian (talk) 23:54, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The problem with this is I am being accused of some sort of bad editing when I did no bad editing. And I said I had no problem with the article being split. All I am saying is that it is a continuation of the original club in a different form and just arguing that helps nothing. This keeps being explained but arguing about it does not help. I say it again, I have no problem with dividing the article. But I don't like being accused of bad edits when it is a continuation of the original club in a new form. Treviso Basket, the club being talked abut now, is just the name of the old club in a new continuation. Not the same as the old club. Because the the Universo club got the original rights of that club. This is actually very common. Clubs just purchase those rights from each other when they have some sort of legal failure or they don't pay taxes or whatever. But it isn't a bad or wrong edit, to put that in the original article that this happened as history of the club at some point. So please stop with the accusations. I am done discussing this now, because I don't like how the tone of this is going.Bluesangrel (talk) 13:31, 1 July 2015 (UTC)