Talk:Palm Island, Queensland/Archive 2

Australian Collaboration of the Fortnight to do list
Some suggestions to get this collaboration started: please feel free to edit, add or remove items from this list as you feel is appropriate. Thanks, WikiTownsvillian 13:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) restructure article (although the article's primary problem is lack of content)
 * 2) recruit member(s) from Wikiproject Australian law to help expand "Manburra People v GBRMPA", "Zen Pearls Pty Ltd" and "Aboriginals Protection and Restrictions of the Sale of Opium Act 1897". (request has been made at wikiproject, "law=yes" has been added to above)Garrie 02:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) significantly expand "2004 riot and death-in-custody controversy" based on primary documents available online and media reports.
 * 4) change Administration to Governance and go into all the commentary that has been made about the future of Palm Island and how to resolve current issues deriving from historical events (ie. local Federal Member has controversially stated that the whole island should be shut down and the residents compulsorily moved to the mainland)
 * 5) recruit member(s) from WikiProject Australian history who may have good resources to go into the extremely rich history of Palm Island.
 * 6) I don't know much about it but I think Palm have had some recognition at a national level for their boxing and football teams, maybe that can be explored.
 * 7) Add a section about the Alcohol Management Plan that came into force on the island late 2006 restricting legal purchasing of alcohol to light beer.(done Garrie 02:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC))
 * 8) create section about the Hospital and the churches as requested by Stevebit above.
 * 9) ceation of stubs for St. Michael's School, Palm Island and Bwgcolman Community School, Palm Island and a new Education section on the main article.
 * 10) I was requested directly at my talk page to have a close look at referencing so here goes.Garrie 22:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 11) Health Issues: The report "Palm Island: Future Directions—Resource Officer Report" is mentioned in Hansard here but the text of the report is not included. A link to the actual report, or a citation to the report (title we have, but we need author, publisher, date, etc) is needed or the comparison to third world conditions should be re-cited or removed. Garrie 22:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

There was a report to the Queensland Parliament in April 2006 that may be useful if we can track it down.--Mattinbgn 22:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi GarrieIrons and Mattinbgn, I think I found that resource you were chasing and have also found a couple of other links while I was searching for it. WikiTownsvillian

reference material

 * Qld ATSIP Department (no longer in existence) -- Palm Island: Future Directions - Resource Officer Report Last updated: 17 October 2005
 * Qld Dept. of Communities Community Spirit: Sixth Edition 2006 (Winter) - A new path for Palm Island
 * Qld Dept. of Communities Safe Haven info
 * COMMUNITY JUSTICE IN INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES IN QUEENSLAND: PROSPECTS FOR KEEPING YOUNG PEOPLE OUT OF DETENTION This report "examines the establishment and operation of the pioneering Aboriginal community justice initiatives at Palm Island and Kowanyama in Queensland" printed 1998
 * Coroner's report
 * Agreement between Cth and State Govs

Info Box
Is it appropriate to add the Template:Infobox Australian Place info box to this article? Is Palm Island one town or are there a number of discrete geographical communities on the island?--Mattinbgn 01:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There is both Palm Island Shire Council (see this map and Palm Island. This article is about Palm Island only. Seems to me the settlement is a relatively small part of the island, but the entire island isn't very big anyway.Garrie 03:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I have added the town info box to the article which needs fleshing out. If the town and island are synonymous, then the box seems appropriate.--Mattinbgn 03:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Alcohol
Not sure if this belongs under Health, where it is now, or a Law and order section. I feel it is notable, most communities in Australia don't have any form of restriction on Alcohol (the fact that it is common in indiginous communities is quite notable and worth highlighting).Garrie 03:33, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

History
Currently the History section is almost cut-and-paste from the Auslii website reference. So it's "correct as cited" but a copyvio.Garrie 23:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Aerial photos & maps
Does anyone know how to drive the links in this section? If you go to the links as they are, you are zoomed in too far to see anything meaningful. eg - the msn page all that was visible was the text Aboriginal land, which made it seem that there was no coverage - but if you zoom out then you can see that there is coverage, just not to that scale at the coordinates the link is for (if the coordinates are a bit to the NW then it'd be better).Garrie 01:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC) In fact - cancel that - basically every map needs to pan one screen to the West to be useful. Existing scale is OK, but the co-ordinates are for the centre of the island and the community is on the Western coast (ie the coast closest to Queensland, I guess because it's not open to the "open sea".)Garrie 01:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I've changed coords to dm and adjusted them nearer to town and to 1/20000 scale (street directory). You can change the scale if you prefer.  You can adjust coords manually (1 extra minute means roughly 1.5 km east or south and you can use decimal minutes.--Grahamec 11:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Info from newspapers
I think i'm putting the facts as reported in the cited newspaper articles accurately, but if anyone has any questions I'd be happy to post full quotes from articles into the talk section here. And if you would like to propose a significant format change please post it here first so that i can check it still reflects the facts stated in the article. WikiTownsvillian 13:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC).


 * I've fixed the citations into a standard format. Note for future ref - linking to subscriber-only services is actively discouraged, especially at FA-level. I have access to Factiva and a few other newstext type services so am happy to assist also Orderinchaos78 15:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Some maps
Hello, I made some maps using NASA WorldWind. Feel free to edit them and upload improvements over the top (at Commons - your account there has to be > 4 days old), or else drop a note on my talk page. They can probably be used for the other islands in the Palm Island group too. cheers, pfctdayelise (talk) 12:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi pfctdayelise, are you intending to leave it as one image for the main article? if so maybe we should take away the Aerial photos & maps header and put the map near the top somewhere, thoughts? WikiTownsvillian 12:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi all, can someone fix the edit that I just made so that the next header (references) starts after the images. Thanks and sorry I haven't been able to figure out how to do it myself. WikiTownsvillian 06:25, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you Grahamec! WikiTownsvillian 09:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I know that every image in Wikipedia is click to zoom, however I would support leaving (click to zoom) on that one image because the writing is not legible when it is a thumb, "click to zoom" is simple and brings attention to the fact that this image is supposed to be seen at full size. Thoughts? WikiTownsvillian 08:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd say no, it just struck me as a little odd. Most maps are illegible throughout WP so it's almost natively understood that thumbs have larger pictures behind.  That said I'm not getting into a 3RR violation if you put it back!--Steve (Slf67)talk 08:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Street Report and trial of Hurley
I would consider the most recent edit by JaKittoe to be extremely POV, particularly as it is not referenced, but am happy to consider others' opinion on this matter. WikiTownsvillian 23:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed - the basic principle is that we should tell the facts and let the reader decide. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball was a major problem with the manslaughter section. It wasn't even legally sound and was poorly sourced, so I removed it. Orderinchaos78 15:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Environmental cleanup
I'm not clear how the photo of grass trees shows a problem to be resolved.--Grahamec 14:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's there to show that the local environment over a longer time has had this style of vegetation. It fits well in the Natural environment section whcih is better named than Environmental clean-up.Garrie 04:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I took the grass trees photo as an example of the contrast to the environment. The grass trees are scattered over a lot of the island and are estimated at several hundreds of years old, --Phenss 10:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

2004 riot and death-in-custody controversy
Does this section deserve an article in its own right? While the death in custody and subsequent controversy certainly requires a paragraph summary in this article, the heavy emphasis on this section risks unbalancing the rest of the article. IMO, this article should focus more on Palm Island the place. Thoughts?--Mattinbgn 02:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, I hope these new articles (like Palm Island Aboriginal Shire Council and Bwgcolman) are included in the ACOTF stats though :) WikiTownsvillian 03:01, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Do we have a consensus on this and if so, what do you think would be a suitable title for the new article. 2004 Palm Island disturbances is one that comes to mind for me.--Mattinbgn 23:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That or 2004 Palm Island death in custody which is the common theme to both the riot and the subsequent controversies with the reviews and court action. WikiTownsvillian 00:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * That sounds fine, and we should redirect the other name and any others to that article. When do you think it would be appropriate to move it.--Mattinbgn/talk 01:00, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I think WikiTownsvillian's suggestion of name is good - it's a very specific incident with its own dynamics. I also agree the ACOTF focus should extend to the new article as well as this one. Orderinchaos78 01:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Created the new article with a cut and paste from here. Needs better categorisation for a start and the Palm Island article needs a summary written and a referral to the main article.--Mattinbgn/talk 04:39, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I have attempted to summarise this section, but think it could be cut further. I think the key points are 1. There was a death in custody; 2. There was a riot; 3. A report was commissioned (the key point for this article as it likely to have a significant effect on Palm if implemented) and 4. the legal matters relating to the death are continuing.  All the detail should in the specific 2004 Palm Island death in custody article.--Mattinbgn/talk 20:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

"Boilerplate" text
I have removed the following text from Self governance: The Palm Island Community Council became the Palm Island Aboriginal Shire Council in... under... Act (Qld). Like the other Aboriginal Shire Councils that were created, this Act gave the Council full status as a Local Government on a par with other Councils in Queensland. If someone can provide the year, legislation and a source, then it should be returned. This type of text belongs in a talk page not on an article, which should read as though it was finished. Garrie 04:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Mind you - much of this information appears later in the Governance section.Garrie 04:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * ...ok I just feel silly now. My bad! WikiTownsvillian 05:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Environment
Are the brumbies seen as...
 * a resource
 * a pest
 * a tourist attraction
 * a commodity
 * a feral nuscience
 * an environmental risk

The very passing reference to them in the Natural environment section leaves things very murky. With this information we know there are horses there but not that they are introduced. We don't however know anything about what wildlife naturally occurs on Palm Island - are there any kangaroos? emus? cassowaries? snakes?

Considering the weasel-words in Overview - The Island is often termed a classic "tropical paradise" given its natural endowments... the article doesn't really explain why one would think it is a tropical paradise. The closest thing to climatic coverage the article provides is a mention that tropical cyclones are a problem!Garrie 05:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, the only problem is finding sources for Palm related facts (that are not controversial). Is there any way to find out if anyone like Australian Geographic have done any reports about Palm Island? WikiTownsvillian 05:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Off the top of my head, I believe there was a minor incident involving the RSPCA and alleged mistreatment of the horses. I will have a look for a source.--Mattinbgn/talk 05:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Google search sheds some light on the horses.--Mattinbgn/talk 05:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Legal cases
I can't find any evidence for the existence of Manburra (sic) People v GBRMPA, as distinct from The Manbarra People and Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority and Anor, so I have deleted it.--Grahamec 02:51, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Since there only seems to be one significant legal case would it be better for the main title to be "The Manbarra People and..."? It just doesn't look good to have a section entirely consisting of a single sub-section. WikiTownsvillian 04:06, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Done, but I've simplified name of case, partly because I don't know what "Anor" means.--Grahamec 04:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Grahame, you cant alter a legal case name just because you dont know what anor means,  "and others". That is like changing the spelling of an english word to make it easier and expecting it to be inserted in a dictionary. It was a famous case btw --Phenss 10:29, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Overview
I think the the overview section can be moved to the introduction part of the article. A well written article introduction should give an overview as a matter of course without the need for a separate section.--Mattinbgn/talk 05:05, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I also think the Overview section should be gotten rid of but it might be messy with the info box and TOC taking up so much space. WikiTownsvillian 09:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You beat me to it! I hope you don't mind but I had another go at it.--Mattinbgn/talk 11:05, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't mind at all, I like the reorganising of the text, but I think the TOC should be placed back to where it was so there isn't a giant open space to the left of the info box on some screens, it looks fine on firefox widescreen, but when I view it on a normal sized screen with IE the contents box goes down to below the jetty pic and above the "People" heading (leaving another big blank space to the right of the TOC. your thoughts? WikiTownsvillian 11:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I am viewing it on a widescreen using FireFox so it is hard for me to tell.:-) Personally, I am a big fan of having the TOC in a standard place and allowing readers to hide it if they wish.  I also think there is some scope to combine some of the short sections to reduce the size of the TOC.  Perhaps move it back until there is an opportunity to do some weeding.--Mattinbgn/talk 11:41, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I've moved the jetty picture lower, which looks better on my MIE screen.--Grahamec 11:48, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * that does look better on both screens although i think it looks even better when
 * is placed below the first para and above where overview used to start, it leaves less blank space and also provides a small break between the very technical first para and the more descriptive/flowery last two thirds of the intro while not actually dividing it into a separate section like it was before. I'm very easy though as it looks fine as is, let me know if you'd be ok with me moving it up as I've said above, otherwise I'll just leave it.
 * is placed below the first para and above where overview used to start, it leaves less blank space and also provides a small break between the very technical first para and the more descriptive/flowery last two thirds of the intro while not actually dividing it into a separate section like it was before. I'm very easy though as it looks fine as is, let me know if you'd be ok with me moving it up as I've said above, otherwise I'll just leave it.
 * is placed below the first para and above where overview used to start, it leaves less blank space and also provides a small break between the very technical first para and the more descriptive/flowery last two thirds of the intro while not actually dividing it into a separate section like it was before. I'm very easy though as it looks fine as is, let me know if you'd be ok with me moving it up as I've said above, otherwise I'll just leave it.


 * Also I think the Jetty pic should be moved down to "Facilities" as it has no real connection with "people". WikiTownsvillian 12:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That looks fine to me.--Grahamec 12:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Sub articles
The following articles have been created in conjunction with this article, please help expand them :)


 * Bwgcolman people
 * Palm Island Aboriginal Shire Council
 * 2004 Palm Island death in custody
 * Manbarra people WikiTownsvillian 10:13, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

Delete Aboriginal Protection and Restrictions of the Sale of Opium Act 1897?
While this is significant to Indigenous history generally I don't think it has much relevance to Palm Island specifically, it seems that Palm Island was a bit of a special case which went against the norms of indigenous treatment (ie even worse than the rest of Queensland) and that is covered in other sections of the history section. The wording of the section also concerns me as it reads more as a social commentary than NPOV.

Maybe to provide context for the Palm Island History section a paragraph or two could be added about 20th Century history of indigenous people in Queensland generally... WikiTownsvillian 02:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the following:

===Aboriginal Protection and Restrictions of the Sale of Opium Act 1897===

As a result of dispersal, malnutrition, opium and diseases, it was widely believed in Queensland that Aborigines were members of a 'dying race'. Pressure from some quarters of the community saw the Queensland government commission Archibald Meston to look at the plight of these dispossessed people. He made a number of recommendations, and some of these became the basis of the Aboriginal Protection and restriction of the sale of opium act 1897. The creators of this Act saw it as a solution to a short term problem, but the administrators of the legislation had a different idea, and from the beginning used it as a device for social engineering and control. It became the instrument with which Aboriginal people could be stripped of the most basic human rights. The Act was the first measure of separate legal control over the Aboriginal people and as Reynolds has pointed out it 'was far more restrictive than any [contemporary] legislation operating in New South Wales or Victoria, and implemented a system of tight controls and closed reserves.' Administrators were able to gain control of Aboriginal affairs through the extensive use of Regulations which could be made lawful simply through proclamation by the Governor-in-Council. In this manner, decision-making passed from politicians to the public servants. The welfare of Aborigines was, after all, only one small part of a busy member's portfolio. But not only did public servants have responsibility for a huge amount of delegated legislation, individual protectors had extensive autonomy in administering the Act and Regulations.

if anyone feels it should be put back into the article please talk about it in this section first. Thanks, WikiTownsvillian 11:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

the 1879 Act was so important in the history of the Aboriginal Protection era. I think it should be expanded on not merely deleted. Perhaps some experts may need to comment? --Phenss 10:32, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Phenss, I agree fully, however it is not really information specific to Palm Island, the content has been moved to Aboriginal Protection and restriction of the sale of opium act 1897 and I hope it is expanded upon, particularly by experts. Thanks, WikiTownsvillian 11:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

message moved from WikiProject Townsville
not sure if this is the forum so excuse me if not but can someone look for more information from the Palm Island link on the following:
 * the Aboriginal Protection and restriction of the sale of opium act 1897.
 * the flying boats image was removed?? intergral part of Palm Island history http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/airfields/palmislandnavalairstation.htm
 * The Palm Island Community Justice Group
 * Solomon Dam-  major Palm Island day photos would be nice
 * Cylindrospermopsis raciborskii, can't find a lint to this anywhere --Phenss 11:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I cannot find in the history of this article an image of the WWII flying boats, it would be a good addition if we can find it. WikiTownsvillian 05:57, 7 April 2007 (UTC)