Talk:Pan-aryanism

The article appears to be a copy+paste of propaganda and biased. --Mysidia (talk) 14:12, 4 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I've gone over it and reduced it to something coherent. Conscious, as long as we have no category "racist shit", politics should do.--Stephan Schulz 14:02, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Lawyer...
I took out the following for now: "Pan-Aryan National Front was founded in 2004 by former New Yorker lawyer who was kicked out from his workplace because of corruption-scandal." In addition to the somewhat ungrammatical and unencyclopedic language, I think we need a source if we want to put it in. Also, we should be able to put a name to the lawyer. --Stephan Schulz 22:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Comment

 * Moved from the article:

This is not correct. Few if any Pan Aryans are White Supremacists, practically all are White separatists. Central to Pan Aryanism is the preservation of physical racial identity. Sice all culture is ulktimately believed to derive from physical racial identity, there can be no question of favoring culture over race. Consequently, since White Supremacism is simply seen as a form of racial integration with White domination, while what is popularly known as "Multuiculturalism" is racial integration with Whites as "Subs", both forms of racial integration must at some point result in physical racial amalgamation, and hence the total annihilation of the racial identity whose preservation is sought. Hence, virtually all Pan Aryans favor White separatism, which involves Whites totally controlling and residing in more or less all White homelands. These homelands are considered co-extensive with what is termed 'Aryanistan", or all areas that Whites are either aboriginal to, or have settled in and developed polities with White majorities Moderate Pan Aryans confine the definition of "Aryanistan" to those lands presently overwhelmingly Whites, while Radical Pan Aryans extend it to any land that has ever in historical times had a White majority, either of a aboriginal nature or by colonization Nonetheless, even most radicals are willing to try to attain these goals by peaceful means, but do advocate forceable repatriation if such means prove to fail, as they almost certainly would for the most radical goals. Still ,even most radicals realize that their most ambitious goals are extremely long term, possibly taking centuries to fully realize. In any case it should not be imagined that "Aryanistan" is meant to be an actuual superstate embracing all Whites, rather it is a moral ethereal and spiritual concept, which while commanding the allegiance of all Whites would tolerate and even encourage the existence of sepeerate but strongly allied nations for the various White nationalities in the Old World, though most New World White nations would, like America, be large states that would serve as "White melting pots", where Whites from all over the world would gather and unite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.131.213.79 (talk • contribs)

Redirect to Aryan race
User:Darkskin has redirected this article to Aryan race. This article covers an racialist ideology, sure, but it is not only "belief in the Aryan race" or "believe in the superiority of the Aryan race". Pan-aryanism is a distinct ideology, even if only a lousy website documents it - being an ideology is easy, you don't need more than a few (preferably irrational) opinions. So WP:V is not a problem. We could make an argument that it is not notable, but Google gives us about 3500 hits, and it's not as if this stub hurts anybody. So I reverted it back. --Stephan Schulz 21:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but Pan-Aryanism has redirected to Aryan race for a long time now. "Pan-Aryanism" does not meet the criteria of WP:V as you claim. If you like or support this forum and want to create an article for it, then do so at Pan-Aryan National Front (web forum) or something like that. I'm sure no one will mind. But there is no verifiable ideology called "Pan-Aryanism", the closet parallel to which would be Pan-Iranism. But the use of the the term "Aryan" in this context is referring to the so-called Nordic Aryan master race, which is an entirely different issue. In the end, it's just a website with no clear ideological foundation, and which came about due to a dispute with Stormfront. Darkskin 22:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Umm..it has redirected to Aryan race for a grand total of 55 minutes!
 * (Ok, I've now noticed that your term is capitalized differently and refers to a different article. Sorry about the mixup!--Stephan Schulz 10:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC))
 * That's not "a long time" in my book, especially compared to the 9 month it has not been redirected. While I cannot recommend it if you have a weak stomach, the ideology is described here. They use yet another redefinition of the term "Aryan" that essentially boils down to "everybody who is not Jewish and kinda looks white", and they want to unite these people. It is stupid, it is intellectually worthless, but it is an ideology, and one that is different from other "Aryan race" theories. And before you claim that I have any sympathy with the ideology or the people behind it, you should check the history of the page. --Stephan Schulz 23:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * You clearly support this site (or maybe you are pro-Stormfront and want to ridicule these idiots). PANF only gets 515 Google hits, contrary to your earlier statement. It is not notable. Take your Nazism somewhere else. Darkskin 00:26, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem with redirecting to Aryan race, is that there is no mention of Pan Aryanism (let alone PANF). Having a separate article on Pan Aryanism is more appropriate because PANF is the only one who supports this ideology. As for Pan-Aryanism, I've just made it redirect to this article. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 04:58, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * PANF is a stupid forum, not a "group"! LOL Darkskin 14:25, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

(Reset indent). Darkskin: --Stephan Schulz 06:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I did not claim that "PANF" gets 3500 hits, buth that "Pan-aryanism", the title of this article gets "about 3500 hits". In fact, I get about 3650 hits for this term.
 * The fact that you cannot make up your mind about wether I support PANF or wether I support Stormfront (when the two apparently are at loggerheads) should tell you something abou the likelyhood of your claim. Anyways, I consider either version as a violation of WP:NPA.
 * But indeed, I think that exposing these people in a neutral manner will lead to ridicule. I consider this is a good thing.


 * If you really feel strongly about this, you should not have a problem finding a verifiable resource that discusses this so-called "Pan-Aryanism". Newspaper articles, something from TIME magazine, Newsweek, a book by Hitler on the virtues of "Pan-Aryanism" or whatever. I think you'd have better luck with Pan-Europeanism. But for "Pan-Aryanism" you have to meet the criteria of WP:V, which you and your comrades have not yet achieved. Darkskin 14:25, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I would very much appreciate it if you would stick to WP:AGF and especially WP:NPA and drop your insinuations ("your Nazism", "comrades"...) and so on. To make the point clear: I don't have any Nazi sympathies, I'm not a racist, and I have neither connections nor sympathy for either Stormfront or the PANF. I've been dealing with Nazi assholes online since time immemorial and don't appreciate being insulted by you (or anybody).
 * As for your request: Pan-aryanism is mentioned e.g. in Kathleen Blee: "Inside Organized Racism: Women in the Hate Movement", in Colin Flint (ed.): "Spaces of Hate: Geographies of Discrimination and Intolerance in the U.S.A", in William Pfaff: "The Wrath of Nations: Civilization and the Fury of Nationalism", it's a topic in the HON 302A Contemporary Fundamentalism seminar of SUNY Plattsburgh, and in Richard M. Dorson, "The Eclipse of Solar Mythology", Journal of American Folklore Vol. 68, No. 27 (1955). It is a notable term and concept. Now, you might have a point (although you did not make it) in the fact that the PANF is not representative for the ideology, and that the article is unbalanced. But the solution is to improve Wikipedias article, not to effectively delete it. If you want it deleted, put it up for WP:AFD, don't just redirect it. --Stephan Schulz 21:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you kidding me?! That's two - read that, 2! - articles I would have to put up for deletion! Since you claim to be very anti-Nazi and have been around for awhile, maybe you could do the honours? Darkskin 23:02, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * And it should be deleted. For Gods sake its a forum! You have a goddamn Wikipedia article about a stupid Nazi forum that just got setup last year! I mean really, do you realize how silly this is? If this is possible then I can create a dozen lame websites and create Wikipedia articles for them. You know what they call this shit? Spam! Darkskin 23:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Darkskin is a Dravidic Supremacist whoes only reason for really wanting the article deleted is his disdain of Pan Aryanism as an ideaology. His use of infantile terms such as "stupid Nazi Forum" srves as proof, especially since most PANF members are not even National Socialists. His automatic equation of all racially conscious Whites with "Nazis" shows how little he knows. His reasons for deleting PANF violate your neutrality policy. The "whose White" debate is a long standing one in White Nationalism, and the position represented by PANF on it in many ways (save for the obvious disdain for Slavs) mirrors that of the Waffen SS which organized "Aryan" formations as far afield as North India, Bosnia, Spain, etc. This does not however mean that most PANF members are NS, merely that PANF's position on "Aryan unity" has historical antecedents. Most PANFers are in fact conservatives, liberetarians, etc who support representative government but are simply racists, much like the Whites in Southern Africa or the Old South in the US, though there are National Socialist members. In fact the historical antecdents of this ideaology can be found as far back as the empire of Alexander the Great which persued an intentional policy of cultural and subracial fusion of Hellenic nad West Asian Caucasians The actual number of hits on Google varies from anywhere from several thousand and up, not some such non-sensical figure as "38", and is growing by the day THe fact that Wikipedia has catalougued a new faction of WN at its genisis is exactly why Wikipedia is here. Not to "fight racism" or promote it, but simply to compile knowledge and let the reader draw their own conclusions-Diabloblanco


 * I would suggest the correct term is PANsy, with pluaral PANsies. But seriously: I don't care for any supremacist. This is an encyclopedia and it's purpose is to document all human knowledge. Even knowledge about idiots. --Stephan Schulz 09:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow, so Diabloblanco (White devil) actually decides to come on Wikipedia and attempt to promote his racist forum. Isn't that a violation of policy? Since there is not much information here and probably not enough to sustain an entire article, I'm going to suggest a merge with Aryan race, since this "idea" obviously relates to the more pertinent information in that article. What do you have against the Dravidian peoples, "White devil"? And I am not a supremacist. I am a Buddhist. Not a very good one, but I'm only human. Darkskin 03:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I had no idea this article existed, but have seen the merger suggestion at Aryan race. To me this article seems rather too stubby to deserve independent existence since its content can usefully be added to the neo-Nazi section of the Aryan race article. The alternative would be to expand this article and to add a sentence or two at "Aryan race" with a link over to here. Paul B 10:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

BTW, this article had been deleted once before: Articles for deletion/Pan Aryanism - obviously without the dash in the middle. The comments there are enlightening as to why this article is pointless. Darkskin 04:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed. And they do seem to fit the article before my first edit to it. What I find enlightening is that Diaboloblanco seems to out himself there...and that he himself seems to have no idea that this is a old term.--Stephan Schulz 07:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Frankly, I find his self-styled "ideology" as well as his apparent dedication to it to be far too bizarre for a sane description in any human (and possibly even non-human) language. How does this merger process work? Can anyone do it, or is it specifically in the realm of the administrators? Darkskin 05:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Technically, everyone can do it. See WP:MM. Given that this page just has survived an AfD (although not with huge enthusiasm by large crowds ;-), I would suggest to list it at WP:PM for discussion. --Stephan Schulz 07:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

well
it sounds like schulz is the real nazi :)

69.125.63.57 02:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It does? Hmmm...--Stephan Schulz 07:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Darkskin
You are human, but a very flawed one indeed.

69.125.63.57 01:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Aren't we all. Darkskin 05:45, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Another splinter site?
After exploring the PANF site a bit more, I came across this wonderfully ridiculous artifact: http://ianf.hyperboards.com. Iranian Nazis! ROFL Now I've seen everything. Darkskin 07:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * What's surprising about that? Where do you think the word Aryan came from? See Iran naming dispute. Paul B 02:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * As you should very well know, Nazism was an explicitly German phenomenon. Iranian Nazism is just as bizarre as Polish or Russian or Italian Nazism, especially when taking into consideration the Nordic theory. Darkskin 07:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, Nazism started in Germany, but there is a depressing amount of copying going on around the world. But that's beside the point. Not all racist or nationalist ideologies are Nazism. "Aryan" does mean "Nordic" only for a few people. If you look at 1920th pulp fiction, "Aryan" is often more or less equivalent with "Anglo-Saxon". Some Racists nowaday take it to mean "everybody non-jewish who looks like me, i.e. blends in nicely with the white population in the US". And in older science texts, it typically refers to the Indo-Iranian people, many of which are indeed Iranians.--Stephan Schulz 07:35, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Darkskin, keep in mind that this is not a discussion board. Things discussed here in the talk page must be about what's written in the article, not about some other website or what you, I or anybody else thinks of PANF (or Pan Aryanism). Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 04:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I know the basic rules and etiquette of Wikipedia quite well, thank you. I don't know if you're reading the same discussion as I am, but it appears to be very relevant from where I'm standing. And I was asked a question, and I have responded, which is the polite thing to do. Darkskin 07:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

It appears that the PANF site is down, perhaps indefinitely. Darkskin 09:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I have redirected, since the debate seemed to have ended. I still find Iranian Nazis no more surprising than Nazis anywhere, less so given the obvious link of Aryanism. Paul B 16:37, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

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Pan-Aryanism is now being discussed by scholars as an aspect of the work of Bannon and the new White Supremacist movements. It is behind a number of recent mass shootings. I would like to re-open this discussion.Chip.berlet (talk) 07:44, 16 August 2019 (UTC)