Talk:Pangram/Archive 1

Protection needed?
Does this page need to be protected anymore? TMC1221 00:59, Nov 8, 2003 (UTC)

Not all letters (sort of)
Actually, all given Pangrams only contain a mixture of small and large letters, but never the whole of them. A (English alphabet) typist will never be able to precisely give his statement to a font as long as he isn't presented a Pangram containing at least 2*26 = 52 letters, 26 small ones and 26 large ones.

Maybe there is a good Pangram that really contains all small and big letters? Thanks, --Abdull 16:11, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No "f"
"Jackdaws love my big sphinx of quartz" does not contain an f. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.186.229.36 (talk) 04:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Um, yes it does. Look again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.23.129.201 (talk) 03:11, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * No, it doesn't. It also doesn't contain y. or ƿ. or v, c, e, x, r, s, z, ø, m, b, n, j, w, æ, u, f, g, ʦ, k, l, h, t, i, a, q, d, or o. 125.236.180.94 (talk) 14:11, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * What about "of" for the f? --DThomsen8 (talk) 00:12, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 125.236.180.94, are you being serious? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.82.141.241 (talk) 00:32, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Too long!
I don't see the point of including looong pangrams. Why are extremely long pangrams (greater than fifty letters) included?

Therefore, I have move the following (all >50, except the palindrome) from the article page to this page:


 * Forsaking monastic tradition, twelve jovial friars gave up their vocation for a questionable existence on the flying trapeze. (106 letters)


 * No kidding -- Lorenzo called off his trip to visit Mexico City just because they told him the conquistadores were extinct. (99 letters)


 * Jelly-like above the high wire, six quaking pachyderms kept the climax of the extravaganza in a dazzling state of flux. (96 letters)


 * Ebenezer unexpectedly bagged two tranquil aardvarks with his jiffy vacuum cleaner. (71 letters)


 * Six javelins thrown by the quick savages whizzed forty paces beyond the mark. (64 letters)


 * The explorer was frozen in his big kayak just after making queer discoveries. (64 letters)


 * The July sun caused a fragment of black pine wax to ooze on the velvet quilt. (61 letters)


 * The public was amazed to view the quickness and dexterity of the juggler. (60 letters)


 * While Suez sailors wax parquet decks, Afghan jews vomit jauntily abaft. (59 letters)


 * We quickly seized the black axle and just saved it from going past him. (57 letters)


 * Six big juicy steaks sizzled in a pan as five workmen left the quarry. (56 letters)


 * While making deep excavations we found some quaint bronze jewelry. (56 letters)


 * Jaded zombies acted quaintly but kept driving their oxen forward. (55 letters)


 * A mad boxer shot a quick, gloved jab to the jaw of his dizzy opponent. (54 letters)


 * The job requires extra pluck and zeal from every young wage earner. (54 letters)


 * A quart jar of oil mixed with zinc oxide makes a very bright paint. (53 letters)


 * Whenever the black fox jumped the squirrel gazed suspiciously. (53 letters)


 * We promptly judged antique ivory buckles for the next prize. (50 letters)


 * I kind of disagree. I think that a longer pangram that makes sense is just as notable as the super-short pangrams that are kind of confusing. For example, "Brick quiz whangs jumpy veldt fox" sounds really awkward, but in most of the above pangrams the individual words actually relate to each other. --PseudoChron 04:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * 1) * An inspired calligrapher can create pages of beauty using stick ink, quill, brush, pick-axe, buzz saw, or even strawberry jam.
 * 2) * A popular belief is that fornication would be a quick fix for some overzealously judicious governments.
 * 3) * About sixty codfish eggs will make a quarter pound of very fizzy jelly.
 * 4) * A mad boxer shot a quick, gloved jab to the jaw of his dizzy opponent.
 * 5) * Alfredo just must  bring very exciting news to the plaza quickly.
 * 6) * Back in my quaint garden jaunty zinnias vie with flaunting phlox.
 * 7) * Astronaut Quincy B. Zack defies gravity with six jet fuel pumps.


 * I'll not enter into this debate just yet, but in deference, I'm putting some long ones here . . . I'm adding the short ones I found to the main page. Allow me to cast my lot with PseudoChron, however. "Junky qoph flags vext crwd zimb" and "Bcfhjmpqvxyz isn't a kluge word" just don't do it for me. Sorry . . . Sehr Gut 16:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with PseudoChron, mostly because really short ones usually don't make sense. As long as it makes sense, it's fine for me, but if it's too long, it also makes it stale.  For example, if your sentence has a thousand letters, that doesn't sound so amazing anymore.  The best pangram that I have seen so far, both short and makes sense, is The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.


 * —— [[User:The Unknown Hitchhiker|

T h e U n k n o w n H i t c h h i k e r ]] 14:13, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The Finnish pangram is wrong
The translation of törkylempijävongahdus should be "Filth-lover's howl". 128.214.205.5 13:20, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Here is an amaxing Pangram Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz, isnt it amazing

True Self-referencing Pangram
This pangram lists four a's, one b, one c, two d's, twenty-nine e's, eight f's, three g's, five h's, eleven i's, one j, one k, three l's, two m's, twenty-two n's, fifteen o's, two p's, one q, seven r's, twenty-six s's, nineteen t's, four u's, five v's, nine w's, two x's, four y's, and one z. Fëaluinix 08:47, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Miniature zebras
The EPSON FX-850/1050 user's manual uses the following sentences to show different fonts.
 * We've just seen your excellent ad for miniature zebras in a recent back issue of Trader's Times . What is the price schedule for quantities over one gross?

&#x2013; b_jonas 13:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Only letters with diacritical marks
In the section with "only letters with diacritical marks" there are one Swedish and one Norwegian example, both of which contain no diacritical marks. In the Norwegian language, æ, ø, and å are considered separate characters in the alphabet, and are not other characters marked with diacritical marks. The same goes for the Swedish language regarding å, ä, and ö. For more on this, see Diacritic, Norwegian language, or Swedish language. I have removed the Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish entries, since they are simply erroneous. Kjosmoen 00:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Graffiti?
Is it just me, or is there some real rubbish in the Perfect Pangrams section? Doesn't make any sense to me anyway. EDITED TO ADD: Ah I see now. The indents are translations. I think they really should be more clearly indicated as such.


 * The indents are consistent with the foreign language section, so whatever is done for one should be done for the other. I don't know if there is a standard Wiki way of indicating translations. Canon 23:34, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I made the same mistake at first. Perhaps italicizing the translations would help? --PseudoChron 04:06, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Palindromic pangram
Unless most people blatantly disagree, I urge you not to revert the previous edit of this page. The palindromic pangram, though perhaps a palindrome and a pangram, is not a collection of sentences, but word salad, and isn't really worth mentioning.

''- * Oh, wet Alex, a jar, a fag! Up, disk, curve by! Man Oz, Iraq, Arizona, my Bev? Ruck's id-pug, a far Ajax, elate? Who? (77 letters) (also a palindrome)''

Ok, this is a struggle, but I'll try to interpret it: "Hey Alex - you're wet by the way - there's a jar and a fag. Hey, frisbee, get up and fly past in a curve. Hey my Beverley, get troops into Australia, Iraq and Arizona. ?????????? Who?". Can't make much sense of "Ruck's id-pug". Stevage 16:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Adding examples in Ukrainian
The pangrams listed lacks Ukrainian, I've added a couple, both in all letters from Ukrainian alphabet. --Jz99 11:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Self-enumerating pangrams
Why was the entire Self-enumerating pangrams section deleted (by someone at 24.6.163.95)? If there are no objections, I would like to reinstate it. -- Spire42 06:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

______________

More links and information about Sallowsgrams:

http://stason.org/TULARC/self-growth/puzzles/265-language-english-self-ref-self-ref-letters-p.html

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/books/hofstadter-GEB-FAQ/ (under "pangrams")

http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/tanaka/GEB/pangram.txt -- randomized Robisonizing (by Letaw)

http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/tanaka/GEB/ self-doc pangrams (Sallowsgram in Jp) (in Chinese) (in Turkish) (in German) (in Danish)

I've never edited a Wikipedia entry, so maybe someone can add the above info. (HeHann (talk) 22:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC))

Pangrams from restricted sets
In my opinion, this section does not belong here. In the beginning of the article it says "A pangram [...] is a sentence which uses every letter of the alphabet at least once." "CO, DY, EI, JQ, LG, MU, NA, RK, SH, TP, VF, XB, ZW" is hardly a sentence. --Darkday 13:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * There is no bright line test for when a related topic is too remotely related to be included in a Wikipedia article. The world seems to be evenly divided between "splitters" who prefer many small tightly related articles and "groupers" who prefer longer loosely related articles.  Pragmatists such as myself take no sides in this debate, as long as information is not discarded.  I'll repeat the Wikipedia credo: if you want something done, do it yourself.  In this case, if you think this information should be in a separate article, make it so. Canon 14:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Removing the pangrams that aren't
There was no y in this nearly-pangram, so I removed it
 * Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow. (29 letters)


 * There appears to be a y after the m in "my." Canon 23:30, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The is is no "F"... unless "ph" counts as an "F" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.150.128.93 (talk) 12:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * How about the "f" in "of"? --Darkday (talk) 01:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Bobby Lapointe
What reference indicates that Bobby Lapointe created this pangram? Canon 19:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hitchhiker's Guide pangram

 * "Zilf'd byshr Tanmwp, Vocx Jecklqug. (from the Hitchhiker's Guide)"

Where in the Hitchhiker's Guide does this appear? I don't remember it.--4.236.12.9 23:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Portuguese pangram

 * In the Portuguese section, I changed back “Brazilian Portuguese” to “Portuguese” since the policy in Wikipedia is to consider all the versions of Portuguese spoken in 8 different countries as the same language.
 * If the sentence “Um pequeno jabuti xereta viu dez cegonhas felizes.” seems odd to a speaker of Portuguese from Portugal, it's not because the word “jabuti” does not exist in Portuguese vocabulary, it's because the little animal (jabuti) is native to South America, and not Europe.
 * Besides, when I made up the sentence “Luís argüia à Júlia que «brações, fé, chá, óxido, pôr, zângão» eram palavras do português.”, the first version was “Luís diz à Júlia que «ânimo, brações, fé, chá, óxido, pôr» são palavras do português.”. But someone pointed me out that that sentence was not a perfect pangram for Brazilian Portuguese since it lacked the letter “ü”. So, I changed the sentence to fit both European and Brazilian Portuguese (non-brazilian Portuguese speakers can always write the same sentence with “u” instead of “ü”).

C. A. Duarte 82.154.222.44 13:19, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Translations
Despite what Rednaxela's imagination led him to believe, crapaüter does not mean doing the nasty; rather, it is an alternative (phonetical) spelling of crapahuter, which is French military jargon for walking in rough terrain (trekking, yomping, tabbing). Perhaps some of the other translations need attention from native speakers as well? DES 15:20, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

French non-pangram
Le cœur déçu mais l'âme plutôt naïve, Louÿs rêva de crapaüter en canoë au delà des îles, près du mälström où brûlent les novæ.

Though it is beautiful and poetic, this does not contain the letter 'z', which is part of the French alphabet, and so I will remove it. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 10:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Censoring Pangrams
What is the basis for allowable pangrams? Why is "Tax whore's cute quim loved bags of monkey jizz" considered vandalism? When the clearly nonsensical, bad english "Brick quiz whangs jumpy veldt fox." is allowed? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.236.216.23 (talk) 15:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC).
 * The basis (in the case of your example) is WP:PROFANITY--CIreland 15:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * ... and it lacked the letter ''"p"'. ---Sluzzelin talk  15:37, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair point. But it's much better than a lot of the other examples.
 * While testing the limits of civility is a common indulgence of adolescence, perhaps an encyclopedia is a poor place for such activity. Canon 14:34, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

United States Representatives' initials
This section seems to contradict itself. It gives the reason you need to use former members as there is no Q, then it says to limit it to one former representative you need to use Don Young. It seems from the text here that Jack Quinn is necessary for Q and Dan Young is necessary to make it a perfect pangram. I am going to change it to reflect this.--Shadowdrak 06:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Portuguese pangram
Desde quando "blitz" é uma palavra portuguesa ?! / Since when is "blitz" a Portuguese word ?! Frederico Manuel Basílio 213.58.152.212 17:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

In view of the fact that, not surprisingly, no answer as been provided, I will be removing the corresponding "pangram" in a near future when I implement an improving to the article that I am preparing. -- Frederico Manuel Basílio 213.58.152.212 16:46, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Merge
I am in support of the merger. >-{ Brandonrush }-<

I also think the merger makes sense. Canon 01:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but the entry "The quick brown fox ..." should be maintained and linked to "pangram", librerista, 7 August 2007


 * There is enough substantial material in "the quick brown fox..." to warrant a separate article. 208.203.4.140 (talk) 18:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The quick brown fox has enough usage outside being a pangram, that I think it should remain its own article. The Equilibrium (talk) 05:48, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't believe in merging the two articles, first mostly because The quick brown fox pangram is pretty famous and well-known in around the english world, and there is enough information about it to make it its own article.


 * —— [[User:The Unknown Hitchhiker|

T h e U n k n o w n H i t c h h i k e r ]] 14:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Odd example
Listed as an example of a perfect pangram in the article:

Quack: "XL VD zit grew of nymph's BJ" (A false doctor attributes large genital wart to oral sex performed by a nymph.)

Admittedly, I laughed. But, does such a contrived and unnecessarily offensive example belong in Wikipedia only for the sake of thoroughness? Removed. Please give an argument for its staying if you put it back. James Lednik 03:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Two arguments:
 * 1) By their very nature, all pangrams are conrived
 * 2) Issues pertaining to human sexuality, including oral sex and venereal disease are certainly covered by Wikepedia. Most people whose POV is based on reason generally would not consider sexual themes to be ipso fact offensive; on the other hand I acknowledge that most religious fundamentalists would. In fact most religious fundamentalists would be deeply offended of Wikipedia in general :) Rastapopoulos 09:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Perfect pangram - Cwm fjordbank glyphs vext quiz?
Found at http://www.funtrivia.com/askft/Question35564.html. It supposedly means that an expert is puzzled by strange symbols in a hollow next to a fjord. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KosherJava (talk • contribs) 23:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Greek non-Pangram
Regarding the greek “pangram”:

Γαζίες καὶ μυρτιὲς δὲν θὰ βρῶ πιὰ στὸ χρυσαφὶ ξέφωτο

This lacks eta, lambda, nu, and psi. Since it's also the only pangram in this list which lacks a final period, I can't help but wonder if whoever added it perhaps left off a few words. Unfortunately, I don’t speak Greek, so I can't suggest a continuation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.129.108 (talk) 16:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Phonetic pangram?
Is there a name for an English sentence, which when written in IPA, use all the phonemes found in English? Phonetic pangram? Are there any examples of English phonetic pangrams?

i.e. it should use both voiced and unvoiced "th" sounds (as in "thy" and "thigh"). It can be an alphabetic (normal) pangram too, but this isn't required. And it may require a particular regional spoken dialect to get all sounds. —Pengo 00:08, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

hijinx
The short english pangram example uses the uncommon spelling/variant of the word "hijinks". To remedy this, I suggest we change the sentence from: "Quick hijinx swiftly revamped gazebo" to "Hi, quickly revamp jinxed swift gazebo" It is shorter by one letter and doesn't resort to very obscure spellings — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.66.129.231 (talk) 07:30, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Culling examples
There used to be way way way too many examples of pangrams in various languages in this article, especially given their place in the lede section. I expect it's the usual phenomenon that examples or translations in different languages grow like weeds once one of them is introduced, 'cause everyone can add their own. Given that we have a dedicated second article, List of pangrams, for such things, I've moved the examples there and purged from this article all the ones except those referred to later, removed the list structure, and put a prominent link to List of pangrams in. Hopefully that'll keep things in check. 4pq1injbok (talk) 17:22, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Examples of Pangrams
Formerly there were many pangrams in different languages included in this article which were purged by in February 2014 on the grounds that the list of examples was too big and there was, at that time, a separate List of pangrams article (since deleted by ). I think it would be useful to have such a list in this article again - but (to keep things from getting out of hand) with the conditions that this list should be limited to one example per language, and that each example must have a properly referenced source. Perhaps the best known pangram in each language that makes sense would be appropriate for such a list? Cfynn (talk) 11:23, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't have strong opinions, except that expansion of lists over time seems to be a law of nature, so someone would need to patrol the list and maintain whatever conditions were imposed on it, which I don't wanna, myself.
 * If you'd asked me to come up with conditions I might've suggested restricting to pangrams that have had some (sourceable) use, like the Russian В чащах юга жил бы цитрус? Да, но фальшивый экземпляр! which they used for telegraph testing, or the Javanese hana caraka, data sawala, padha jayanya, maga bathanga which has become their principal alphabet order. 4pq1injbok (talk) 14:21, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that Cfynn has it just right. I found the several lists of pangrams quite useful before they were deleted.  I vote for restoring at least some of these pangrams with the restraints stated by Cfynn.--Foobarnix (talk) 23:59, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * PLEASE bring back the list of pangrams. I found it really useful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.78.164.90 (talk) 13:23, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Agreed, the list(s) should come back. Or, at least, more examples than now given.
 * Here's one: "The five boxing wizards jump quickly." (Used by ScholarOne to demo available fonts.)
 * —DIV (137.111.13.4 (talk) 00:48, 7 August 2015 (UTC))

Perfect Pangram
Would it be better to use an example like "Mr Jock, TV quiz PhD, bags few lynx" for the perfect anagram rather than the mouthful that is "Cwm fjord bank glyphs vext quiz"?

PinothyJ (talk) 02:26, 10 October 2016 (UTC)…
 * It does seem to be perfect; never seen that one before. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 10:58, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I have added it, with the proviso that it includes abbreviations (TV, PhD), which disqualifies it in some eyes. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 16:14, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Victor jagt zwölf Boxkämpfer quer über den großen Sylter Deich
What does that mean in English? Something about "Victor hunts twelve large animals"? Anonymuss User (talk) 14:07, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Jackdaws love my big sphinx of quartz
This sentence has 32 letters, and is used by some operating systems to demonstrate fonts, much like the more well-known "Quick brown fox" one. 75.112.52.7 (talk) 17:05, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

errors
It's interesting how often people edit this article by removing one of the pangrams saying that it doesn't have some particular letter when it does have that letter. (It just happened again this morning.) It says something about humans' inability to concentrate, or something like that. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 10:56, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Perfect pangram? (with one abbreviation)
Quartz glyph: vend jocks, fix BMW

This means that there is a glyph on quartz (in some location), and advertises that it can sell jocks and fix BMW's. I think that this uses far less abbreviations than the Mr Jock example and is much less confusing than the fjord one. (11Z2) (talk) 16:44, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

"jumped"
Many people misquote "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" as "the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog," and since "jumps" contains its only 's,' the misquotation ends up being incorrect. Should we mention this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:85:C200:A200:2C28:AC1D:1B1:1AE7 (talk) 22:38, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Phonetic pangram
Editor User:Md84419 has added four pangrams that claim to use all the phonemes of English. Since this topic is much more obscure than letters in the alphabet, it needs a reference and some context - e.g., how many phonemes does English have? American vs. British vs. others? How common are such pangrams? - DavidWBrooks (talk) 11:53, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Still no reference two weeks later. A quick google search finds lots of blog posts but no serious source that these sentences do what is claimed. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 12:11, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The general topic of phonemes is well covered in this Wikipedia article . Wikipedia (and Wiktionary) itself uses the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) to indicate the phonetic pronunciation of words, as do most of the popular Engish dictionaries . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Md84419 (talk • contribs) 11:36, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Most phonology textbooks and sources claim that US-English is comprised of 44 phonemes and British English is also comprised of 44 phonemes. The /x/ phoneme from loch, Bach which is used in some Scottish-, Welsh- and foreign-origin words is sometimes included, creating 45.
 * The phoneme pangrams not part of English culture in the same way that "The quick brown fox..." is, but they are taught in school phonetics lessons and are well-known in the linguistics community. A quick google search reveals almost 10,000 hits for the "With tenure..." pangram, almost 8,000 for "...Eurasian footwear..." and just over 8,000 for "The beige hue...".  The pangrams can be found in literature including and are part of the Read Write Inc. programme published by Oxford Univeristy Press and taught in the majority of UK schools.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Md84419 (talk • contribs) 10:14, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I can accept that those three have some evidence to back them up. However, the last is, by definition, not a pangram as it is two sentences. A cursory search for "That quick beige fox jumped in the air over" yielded less than 200 results. This example should be removed.--Itspatri (talk) 16:51, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

No "z"
Lee Sallows' quote under self-enumerating pangram lacks a "z". It's cool, but it's not a pangram. That isn't made clear and is a bit misleading. JustSomeKid

There is a Z, at the end, when the sentence claims that it has one Z. 50.232.137.26 (talk) 16:45, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Pangram
This is a new pangram.The sentence is gramatically correct.And the sentence makes sense. "Quick frowzy vamps jog the blind ox." ' frowzy' means badly dressed. 'vamps' means flirty women. 'jog' is a transitive verb meaning to push slightly with the hand. Thanks

Best Regards, SUNGELEE PARAMAH. Sungelee paramah (talk) 04:04, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

"Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow."
It's an interesting psychological experiment that a few times over the years, people have removed "Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow." saying that it doesn't have an "f" - just happened again. They blip right over the the word "of". I'm sure linguistics and/or psychology people have an explanation. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 11:38, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Phonetic Pangrams are not accurate
The phonetic pangrams given are not pangrams. e.g. the first and third example do not include the /ai/ phoneme ('PRICE' words). Are there some better examples that actually include all phonemes?
 * I have removed this section. Do not readd without proper citations for each.--Khajidha (talk) 16:15, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Pangram that is the definition of a pangram
The following is a pangrammatic definition of a pangram:

A pangram is quickly jotted text with every letter of the alphabet squeezed into it.

Brandenads (talk) 04:13, 16 September 2022 (UTC)


 * It seems like this is one that you came up with, so I don't think it passes WP:OR. Edderiofer (talk) 10:08, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I did make up that pangram. I wanted to see if editors would appreciate it, but since I made it up, it appears to be against the original research policy and I will not try to tie it into the article.

Pangram source citations
I added source citations to the pangram examples mentioned in the article. I made sure the references were 1.) To notable books by respected authors/publishers that provide a discussion on the subject of pangrams that is much more indepth and comprehensive than a small intro paragraph and long list of random pangrams, or 2.) Historical references, that shed some light on the age, usage, and/or authorship of the pangram. Since there are hundreds of pangrams in circulation, I think these citations can keep the list of pangrams more "valuable" and in control of the length of the list. Brandenads (talk) 07:53, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Big bird's English pangram
Big Bird pronounces the English alphabet as if it were a word. Though unofficial, I believe it is perfect pangram, in the sense that it would be if it were a word. As is already well explained, one cannot get perfect pangrams in English without bending the rules. Moreover, I think it helps the reader understand the preceding topic of perfect pangrams in Javanese, which I was unaware of until I read the article. I scratched my head for a while and then understood that the verb "order" meant "arrange in order, in the way Big Bird tried to do with the English alphabet.CharlesHBennett (talk) 11:28, 24 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Though unofficial, I believe it is perfect pangram, in the sense that it would be if it were a word.
 * But "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz" isn't a word, so this isn't a pangram. The fact that Big Bird attempted to pronounce it as a word isn't notable enough to be included.
 * I scratched my head for a while and then understood that the verb "order" meant "arrange in order, in the way Big Bird tried to do with the English alphabet.
 * Then the previous sentence should be edited for clarity, instead of adding a clearly-debatable entry to the article that doesn't actually clarify the wording. Edderiofer (talk) 15:40, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

As you say it is debatable, so let us debate it. I think more readers are familiar with Big Bird than perfect pangrams or Javanese script, and that my version therefore improves the article by using an example many people are familiar with to explain something that they are unfamiliar with but would be interested to know, namely that there are some languages in which sequences like abcd...yz are used as a name for the alphabet or syllabary. If I have not persuaded you, let us solicit additional opinions. CharlesHBennett (talk) 02:12, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't think you've actually understood what a perfect pangram is. I can't speak for Javanese, but Iroha consists of coherent sentences that make actual sense. Pronouncing "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz" as if it were a word isn't even a pangram because it doesn't mean anything. "Mr. Jock, TV quiz PhD, bags few lynx" is said to be a perfect pangram in English, and it at least makes sense.
 * "order its letters in sequence" is not at all "in the way Big Bird tried to do with the English alphabet". Dictionaries don't start with A and end with Z because Big Bird said "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz". Nardog (talk) 03:00, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Is there a technical term for a conventional ordering of an alphabet versus the alphabet viewed as an unordered set? The imbalance between consonants and vowels in the English alphabet makes it hard for a perfect pangram to make sense much less for it to be poetic as the Iroha is. That makes me wonder if there are any abjads with meaningful or poetic pangrams, or pangrams used to conventionally order them. CharlesHBennett (talk) 12:25, 30 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't think so, so let me coin one: "Vocabularic Order" versus "Phonetic Order". (Vocabularic because the letters were originally ordered in the way they are because, as in Greek and Phoenician, each letter was actually a different word; Latin just later shortened it. Zed, though, is the last remaining one – it was originally zeta in Greek, itself originally zayin in Phoenician, which means sword in English.) RichardMcKee (talk) 02:05, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Mr. Jock, TV quiz PhD, bags few lynx.
Mr. Jock, TV quiz PhD, bags few lynx. 49.196.34.227 (talk) 21:50, 24 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes, this one is mentioned in Pangram. Belbury (talk) 08:04, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

External site with the deleted list of pangrams
Wikipedia used to have an article listing pangrams in many languages that I used to find very useful (entitled: List of pangrams), which was deleted in part due to many of the programs being original. I have been alerted of the list having been saved in this blog entry (archive.org link). Ser be etre shi (talk) 14:38, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Portuguese and k, w, and y
Since the adoption of the Portuguese Language Orthographic Agreement of 1990, the letters k, y, and w are considered part of the Portuguese alphabet (at least for "official language" purposes). In that case, is the remark about the use of loan words for Portuguese pangrams still correct? 174.112.98.128 (talk) 22:49, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

German error for letter Y
It says "The letter y is limited to loanwords and proper names like Sylt." but this isn't true. There are German words that contain the letter y but aren't loanwords or proper names like, Physik, Psychologie, Synchron, or Rhythmus to list a few. 141.72.157.109 (talk) 10:04, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Refer to a methodical search for all perfect pangrams.
Methodical (programmatic) Search for all English perfect pangrams. Boldklub-PJs (talk) 22:13, 6 January 2024 (UTC)