Talk:Panic attack/Archive 3

"Feedback" edit
Unkle25 had recently put in the following section which I have rendered into italics to separate if from the preceding extant sentences:
 * Sufferers of panic attacks report a sense of dying, "going crazy", and/ or experiencing a heart attack, feeling faint, nauseous, or losing control of themselves. These feelings generally provoke a strong urge to escape or flee the place where the attack began (a consequence of the sympathetic "fight or flight" response). When a person notices an internal sensation, their sympathetic nervous system (SNS) activates, creating more sensations and more SNS arousal. This causes a positive feedback loop that sometimes culminates in a panic attack. This is analogous to holding a microphone next to a loudspeaker. An initial signal is picked up by the microphone, amplified by the system, coming out the loudspeaker with more intensity, getting further amplified by the system.

This was then undone by DashaKat with the comment "The info in this controibution is incorrect". I think what Unkle25 was trying to say is dealt with later in under the section Trigger but is specific to hyperventilation:
 * Hyperventilation alone can bring about some of the symptoms of a panic attack. However, the person experiencing the panic attack often does not realize this and sees these symptoms as further evidence of how serious their condition is. An ensuing positive feedback loop of adrenaline release fuels worsening physical symptoms and psychological distress.

The problem with this is that it makes it seem that this positive feedback loop only occurs with hyperventilation while it can occur as a result of palpitations, dizziness etc. This is the merit of Unkle25's edit in that it makes a more general point even if the microphone example of positive feedback is unnecessary to make that point.

However, there is a more significant problem with this article. It has a "patchwork quilt" feel about it as if it has been edited by many people with little points put here and there and there is no overall coherence. --CloudSurfer 15:30, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Let me see if I can find some citations on the feedback mechanism. MegaHasher 23:56, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * My "citations" are from speaking with patients. Clinical experience is unfortunately not enough here. --CloudSurfer 18:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the citation MegaHasher! I have moved your entry up to replace the first mention of positive feedback. --CloudSurfer 03:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Edits/ Article Re-write etc.
While I appreciate Dashakat's efforts at improving the article on Panic Attacks I must note that she is not the only authority on the subject. It is silly, authoritarian and reprehensible to systematically undo my contributions on the subject- because you have incorrectly assumed I have an agenda etc.. Indeed, you have improved the overall organization of the article however you have taken out many good parts that should have stayed. Accordingly, I have re-added my sections you took out. The "loudspeaker analogy", as MegaHasher noted, is valid and important moreover your definition of a panic attack at the start of the article was insufficient. Accordingly, I added back that part as well. Wikipedia benefits from "peer contributions" not everyone's contributions going through a filter controlled and designated by one person. I have no agenda, as you alluded to- my only goal is to contribute to the article and help improve it. I must remark at Lesaint's post that seemingly motivated this completely unwarranted re-write as copied below;

This article sounds vehement, or large portions do at least, as if it was written by a panic-attack sufferer on a mission.

''The entire sentences in bold are unsophisticated and unnecessary. "First time panic attacks are usually one of the worst experiences of a person's life" and so on sounds like hyperbole, which undermines the article's authority. Whether it's exaggeration or not, the whole thing would benefit from some more subdued writing (and a bunch of research''

While I agree the article could benefit from sourcing and references I can tell you as someone who has done signifcant research in the area, any of the article claims can easily be verified as accurate and valid. Moreover, panic attacks are some of the worst experiences of a person's life- just ask someone who has ever experienced one.Unkle25 10:51, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * While your contributions are both appreciated and welcome, the article, prior to its recent revision, did have both a patchwork feel, as well as relying heavily on editorializing and adjectives suggesting a less an objective editorial intent.


 * Further, the introduction of an article is intended to provide a demonstrable identification and definition of the topic at hand. The information your provided was relevent, but out of place.  If it was removed to tighten up the articles presentation, but not moved dto another place where it might be more appropriate, the by all means, re-introduce it... in the appropriate section.


 * Finally, I'm a male. --DashaKat 18:59, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You might want to look at the manual of style on the issue of emphasis. "Italics are used sparingly to emphasize words in sentences (bolding is normally not used at all for this purpose). Generally, the more highlighting in an article, the less the effect of each instance." --CloudSurfer 19:11, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I have just rewritten the article down to the lists. There are comments still in the text. Please read them before you do an reverts or rewrites. I moved triggers to after the description and kept each separate. There are still some statements in the text I am not happy are accurate but lets get some citations and see what we find. DSM-IV is not mentioned in the first part and yet it should be. This is a work in progress. --CloudSurfer 03:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Treatment during the attack
I remember during one of my classes at school, the teacher mentioned something about breathing exercises to help calm someone experiencing a panic attack and eventually help end it sooner. If there are methods to reduce an attack while it is happening, I think they should be in the article. I don't have any resources on this, but hopefully someone else does. Some guy 21:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

There are many breathing exercises that can help alleviate panic symptoms. Particularly since numerous panic symptoms are related to hyperventilation. These would include: diaphragmatic breathing, and also breathing directly into a paper bag to help reduce the loss of carbon dioxide present during hyperventilation. I beleive there is a mention of this in the article but it sounds like a useful section to add.Unkle25 07:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Recent Changes/ Additions
I wish to thank DashaKat for all his hard work thus far. The article is starting to improve dramatically. I also wish to thank Cloud Surfer for his efforts thus far. I think there is a strong and dedicated set of eyes on this article intending to improve it.

I have added various citations in the article that I could matach directly with academic and reliable sources. However, I am not familiar with using a Reference Lists in terms of the programming and interface. Consequently, you will see in the reference section that my references don't match the format of the other ones. If anyone is good with code and referencing please feel free to fix them.

Based on SomeGuy posted above I have added a section on Coping With Panic Attacks. In it, I have included a variety of references. I look forward ot other users expanding and further developing this section as it is not yet as comprehensive as I want it to be. That's all for now... Take Care Guys Unkle25 08:10, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

More Additions and Changes
I began re-organizing and adding to the Trigger/Cause section. I took my information from a leading sources and research on the subject and accordingly it has been referenced. I think this section is now more comprehensive and better organized. However, I look forward to your commentary and potential improvements. Bye for now! Unkle25 08:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Latest Changes
I re-worked the starting definition of a panic attack as referenced in the DSM-IV. I think it now reads more accurately. I also added significant content to the Trigger/Causes section which I think are important. These are all referenced by (Bourne 2005). I am hoping others can add to this section as I think it has some potential to become very descriptive and detailed. I am hopeful I am not monopolizing the article too much and that my contributions thus far are valid and improving. I look forward to everyone else's contributions. Unkle25 11:51, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I cleaned up the references in the first paragraph...sort of. Kindly use the proper mechanism for presenting citations.  Further, I removed the Wilson reference and replaced it with Fact, as there is no Wilson reference in the article.


 * Finally, I removed the "Coping" section altogether. It creates a huge liability issue to present alleged remedies, including recommendations for the use of controlled substances, prescription or not, in a public forum. --DashaKat 17:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Dashakat. Thanks for cleaning up the references. I am still not familiar with how to do citations in Wikipedia. Hopefully, I will figure it out soon. However, there is a "Wilson" reference, I beleive it is reference number 5. I agree regarding the coping section, good call on that, it was inappropriate. Unkle25 23:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * No worries. The reference thing is a bit opaque.  It took me quite a while to figure out, and I've even got some programming chops.


 * Sorry about the Wilson reference, I didn't see it. I don't know if you fixed it, but I'm not going to unless you ask me to...it'll give you a chance to figure out how to do the reference thing!


 * Hint: The Wiki-infrastructure does the rest.  Best...--DashaKat 11:22, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well done all. There is still a lot to be done. One issue is the use of "you" and "your" in the article. In some ways it is written as if it is directed at panic attach sufferers and written by members of a self-help group rather than academics. The following shows a number of problems.

Studies of identical twins, who have exactly the same genetic make-up, demonstrate the odds of developing an anxiety disorder is 31 to 88 percent- depending on the study you analyze. Having the same genetic make-up of someone who has panic attacks makes it twice as likely that you will have panic attacks. Also childhood circumstances (your parents communicate an overly cautious view of the world) and cummulative stress over time have been found to be causes (Bourne 2005).


 * This would be better worded as:

Various twin studies where one identical twin has an anxiety disorder have reported an incidence ranging from 31 to 88 percent of the other twin also having an anxiety disorder diagnosis. Environmental factors such as an overly cautious view of the world expressed by parents and cumulative stress over time have been found to be causes (Bourne 2005).

The link now goes to twin studies which allows the person to learn more about them and the reasoning behind any conclusions. I have deleted the redundant and over simplifying sentence: "Having the same genetic make-up of someone who has panic attacks makes it twice as likely that you will have panic attacks." I haven't read the Bourne reference so I am not sure that what I have written above is backed up by the reference. However, what I am trying to point out is style. --CloudSurfer 18:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Everyone... I took Cloudsurfer's advice and worded the twin study stuff as he suggested- I agree it had too much of a self-help feeling before. I think the article is really coming along nicely. Thanks to everyone for their time and contributions. Unkle25 10:16, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Updates
Hi Everyone... We had some updates from anonymous users recently- some of which I feel are valid, some of which I feel are not. I cleaned up some of the contributions. I think, as many contributors have alluded to, this article runs the risk of becoming overly "self-help" and less academic. I however will argue that we need to strike a balance between the incredible suffering those who are afflicted with panic attacks experience (hence emotion and self-help) and detached, stoic academic research. In other words I think the article can benefit from both angles. I would like to applaud the anonymous editor's contributions to the Agoraphobia section. In my opinion this section has drastically improved particularly with clarity and correcting common misconceptions about Agoraphobia. In any event, it is fun to watch this article evolve, certainly for the better. I look forward to working on it in the future. Unkle25 05:53, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi all. Good work. I don't know if any of you have read WP:MEDMOS but if not, it would be helpful. I understand your desire to help those with panic attacks but remember that there are lots of self-help places on the web. Some selections from MedMOS are:
 * Signs of writing for (other) patients:
 * You use the word "you" when describing those who have a medical condition.
 * You give practical advice, particularly for when medical help should be sought or is required.
 * I am busy over at Dissociative identity disorder at present but I vow to return to help.--CloudSurfer 08:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There are NIMH contents that one can use in Wikipedia without copyright issues. Maintaining good citations is important to keep materials from morphing beyond recognition by later edits. MegaHasher 08:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Merger proposal
Any feedbacks on the merger proposal to merge into panic disorder? If you follow to that article, a lot of the materials on panic disorder is very similar to panic attack. MegaHasher 08:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The discussion on the merger can be found here. Absentis 15:21, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, so far the feedbacks are to keep them as two separate articles. MegaHasher 16:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

STUDENT mnemonic
This mnemonic is the dumbest thing I have ever seen. I think it qualifies as original research, because if someone actually remembers that or felt the need to copy it from another source, they need to take a good hard look at what they're doing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.251.88.4 (talk) 19:14, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Changes October 5th 2007
I moved the reference to the recent study that indciated panic attacks increase heart attack/stroke risk to a more suitable location. I am familiar with the study (and it is important) but it certainly does not belong at the start of the article. I also cleaned up a few more sections and made some minor edits here and there. The Causes/Triggers section I think is starting to look very comprehensive with a lot of new additions. Great work all around! Unkle25 06:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

More additions Dec. 31st 2007
Hi everyone... I did some additions to the article over the last few days. I am striving to make the article more comprehensive and more current. I hope my changes were useful. I provided as many references as possible. Happy New Year!

Unkle25 (talk) 10:33, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Picture
I don't know why the picture was removed. I think it is a nice addition to the article. I think it should stay...

Unkle25 (talk) 11:43, 8 January 2008 (UTC)