Talk:Pannonian Basin/Archive 1

Pannonian, the Hungarian collocation Kárpát-medence (Carpathian Basin) is the exact equivalent for the collocation Pannonian Plain, therefore these two articles should be merged. The Hungarian name is also used in older Slovak texts as the old name for the Pannonian Plain. Maybe you are confused by the fact that it is called "plain" in English while it is a basin in all the other languages, but that's just a tradition. Juro 20:49, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * In my old geography book for secondary school Pannonian Basin (Panonski basen) is described as area that include Pannonian Plain (Panonska nizija), but also some hills and mountains that are not technically part of the Pannonian Plain. Therefore, the terms are not same. PANONIAN   (talk)  21:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I see the problem now. You have a term for the plain parts only in ex-Yugoslavia. That is OK, but the Pannonian Plain article in this encyclopaedia is about the geomorphological unit that includes the (small) mountains in it; and that is called Kárpát-medence in Hungarian, Panónska panva in West Slavic and Pannonisches Becken in German (there are no other names for it, there is definitely no "Panónska nížina" in Slovak for example). So, what we should do is move the Pannonian Plain article to the technically more correct name Pannonian Basin (even google confirms that) and then you can write there is a special name for the plain parts in the south. By the way, I am quite sure that Panonska nizija is the South Slavic equivalent for Great Alföld, because I have a geology book that specifically deals with these naming issues and it says for Great Alföld that it is called Podunavska nizija or simply Panonski basen - so I think Panonska nizija could be pretty much the correct name. But you should know this better. Juro 23:58, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure are you correct here - I will make some research and then some things would be perhaps more clear. Basically, we have to find exact definition of the terms:
 * What is Pannonian plain (Panonska nizija)?
 * What is Pannonian Basin (Carpathian Basin, Kárpát-medence)?
 * What is Great Alföld?

When we find exact definitions, then we can say do we speak about 3 different regions or about 2 (i.e. if Pannonian plain is same as Great Alföld or as Pannonian Basin).

So, let first find some sources and then we will analyze them:
 * http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/austria/locations/p/3.html - This site for example mention both names, Panonska Nizina (which would be Slovak name, I believe), and Panonski Basen.
 * http://www.geofys.uu.se/eprobe/Projects/pancardi/Fig2_5.gif This map for example show Pannonian and Transylvanian basins.
 * http://www.geofys.uu.se/eprobe/Projects/pancardi/Fig2_9.gif
 * http://www.geofys.uu.se/eprobe/Projects/pancardi/Fig2_1.gif
 * http://www.geofys.uu.se/eprobe/Projects/pancardi/Fig2_8.gif

I will continue research latter, but you can also present what your sources say about this. PANONIAN  (talk)  09:31, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, let not to complicate this too much: we can be pretty sure that terms Pannonian Basin and Pannonian Plain are not same, so the only question is whether term Pannonian Plain is same as term Great Alföld/Great Hungarian Plain. Therefore, we should find sources with exact definitions of Pannonian Plain and Great Alföld/Great Hungarian Plain to compare them. If sources show that they are same, then we would have to rewritte and rename all those articles. So, do you have any sources with those definitions? PANONIAN   (talk)  11:05, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I found this:
 * http://www.expeditionplus.com/2005/09/physical_geography_of_europe_f.html Quote: "of the great Hungarian Plain (also known as the Pannonian plain)",
 * and this: http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/hmcb/hmcb06.htm Quote: "southern part of the Great Hungarian Plain, referred to as Pannonian Plain in Yugoslavia"

So, these sites claim that Pannonian Plain is indeed same as Great Hungarian Plain. Now, I believe we should do the following:
 * 1. Rename article "Pannonian Plain" to "Pannonian Basin" and rewritte its content.
 * 2. Merge article "Carpathian Basin" with article "Pannonian Basin".
 * 3. Rename article "Great Hungarian Plain" to "Pannonian Plain" and rewrite its content.

Do you agree with this? PANONIAN  (talk)  11:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not have much time right now (I recommend you to use google book search for this, I remember having found there a professional encyclopaedia for these "units" months ago: Encyclopedia of European and Asian Regional Geology), but I definitely think that we should not move Great Hungarian Plain to Pannonian Plain for an ENGLISH text, because I am quite sure that Pannonian Plain (Pannonische Tiefebene in German) is also used for western Slovakia and that is Little Alfold. Personally, I think it is the same only in Serbian/Croatian texts. Also, Britannica uses Great Alfold. The problem with your quotes is that as far as I remember, the part of the Pannonian Basin situated in ex-Yugoslavia is only the Great Hungarian Plain, therefore it is very easy to confuse those two terms for the territory of ex-Yugoslavia, i.e. the Pannonian Plain is always the Great Hungarian Plain there (if we ignore the hills). I would keep the name Great Hungarian Plain and make a disambiguation for Pannonian Plain, which would say something like Pannonian Plain = a) plane parts of the Basin or loosely = Pannonian Basin b) esp. in ex-Yugoslavia: Great Hungarian Plain only. The rest you have changed seems to be OK. Juro 15:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Eh, we are at the beginning again: so now you saying that Pannonian Plain is not same as Great Hungarian Plain. If that is the case, we should have articles about both plains. So, what is definition of Pannonian Plain then? It include Great Hungarian Plain + (what exactly)? PANONIAN   (talk)  16:05, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No, what I am saying that (1) Panonska nizija/nizina (which CAN be translated to English "Pannonian Plain") is the traditional SERBIAN, but not ENGLISH or other name for the lowland part of the Pannonian Basin, i.e. of the Great Hungarian Plain, in Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia (2) and that Pannonian Plain is an imprecise English traditional name for the Pannonian Basin. Therefore I suggest to create a disambiguation page. If you want a definition, there is a precise definition for the Pannonian BASIN (of course different from book to book in details), because that is the professional term. In general, you cannot just literally translate these things, they are a question of tradition and usage to a large extent (especially if they are big and lie in several countries). And this is especially difficult for English, which is a very chaotic language. I have found the book in book search now, it is the Encyclopedia of European and Asian Regional Geology. The book is divided by countries, but you will find "Pannonian Plain" only one single time there with reference to Serbia (unfortunately without explanation), they use Pannonian Basin/Depression and Great Hungarian Plain in other places, so that is just like I have proposed it above. Juro 16:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S.: And to increase the confusion :): see Juro 16:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Unclear
While I'm not attacking the text (haven't had time to read it), a map of the area would be very helpful. Larklight 09:40, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Hungarian POV?
Especially the part about how Hungarians call the territory between Carpathians and Transylvania. That's irrelevant, this is the English Wikipedia, Hungary doesn't even have those territories anymore so it's pretty irrelevant how they call them, it's like Turkey naming part of Greek territory. That's highly offensive, using imperial names for territories that are no longer under the occupation of that country. To understand this concept think about Hungarian city names presented in Wikipedia with Turkish or Austrian names when there's a Hungarian and most importantly an English name for them (if the English name is derived from a foreign name is more tricky, but this is not the case here).

Also, even if we assumed this refers to Hungarian territory, it would still be an unwarranted presentation because Wikipedia doesn't present things from the POV of the subject, basically it's irrelevant how Hungarians call the territory, that shouldn't be presented from the Hungarian POV, it should be presented using English names and from the English geographic literature POV -- which to my knowledge doesn't include Transylvania into the Pannonian Basin. 70.108.110.55 (talk) 23:18, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The Carpathian Basin is used in English. Read the references.Baxter9 (talk)
 * I'm specifically talking about this part: "In Hungarian geographical literature various subdivisions of the Carpathian Mountains (Inner Western Carpathians, Inner Eastern Carpathians, Southern Carpathians, Western Carpathians and Transylvanian Plateau)" I don't find very important how Hungarians call territories that are not even part of Hungary. 70.108.110.55 (talk) 04:18, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Great Hungarian Plain: In Hungarian, the plane is known as Alföld, in Slovak as Veľká dunajská kotlina, in Romanian as Câmpia Tisei or Câmpia de Vest, in Croatian as Panonska nizina, and in Ukrainian as Тисо-Дунайська низовина.I don't find very important how non Hungarians call territories that are not even part of their country. Also: The Balkan region (Thrace) is called Rumelia in Turkish. Why is it mentioned in English wiki? The Dardanelles are called in Turkish: Çanakkale Boğazı in Greek: Δαρδανέλλια, Dardanellia. Why is it mentioned in English wiki?Carpathian Mountains: Czech, Polish:Karpaty;Russian: Карпаты (Karpaty);German:Karpaten; Serbian: Karpati. Why are these are mentioned in English wiki?Baxter9 (talk)
 * Why do you ask that, is that a good example of English Wiki practice? I doubt you can justify the content in one Wiki page with the content in another Wiki page, should we take each example and explain why it doesn't fit this situation. Let me take the  Romanian: Câmpia Tisei or Câmpia de Vest I don't think it should be mentioned in an article about Hungary. It's irrelevant how Romanians call the Hungarian plain, it's irrelevant in English Wiki, it's irrelevant in general, the only place it should be mentioned it's Romanian Wiki. As for Carpathians if we really want to use local names we could mention them I guess, however we don't/shouldn't mention Turkish name although at some point Turks were ruling the area not we should mention the Russian name... and so on. In this case it's only an irredentist reason to mention how Hungarian name territories that are not even part of Hungary (this in an English Wikipedia, in Hungarian Wiki it's of course normal to use Hungarian names)  98.118.94.77 (talk) 05:42, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

are you retarded???
There is no such thing as a "Carpathian basin" only Carpathian mountain range,its got none of the geological or "Artistic" attributes to make it a basin+the lower lands are on the eastern side of the Carpathians(Moldova and Wallachia regions of Romania actually forming a structural basin),you really suck at geography.