Talk:Panzer

Untitled
Isn’t the ‘whole books have been written’ an exaggeration? Reference should be provided, if not.
 * This is called a hyperbole. Should I state: "Literally every nut and bolt of the Tiger has been documented" I speak the truth, but I don't mean each nut has it own book. :o)--MWAK 20:35, 4 April 2005 (UTC)


 * Is panzer only used in context with 2WW? In germany all heavy amored vehicles (mostly caterpillars) are called Panzer. Panzerkampfwagen is a term only for 2WW-vehicles.


 * This isn't strictly true.--MWAK 20:35, 4 April 2005 (UTC)

"self-propelled artillery piece" would translate into german as "Artillerie auf Selbstfahrlafette" while the term "Sonderkraftfahrzeug" (Special-purpose vehicle), or SdKfz for short, meant the identification tag for the vehicle-classes themselves. So SdKfz 181 is the ID for a Tiger I and SdKfz 182 is the ID for a Tiger II, SdKfz 250/XX indicated vehicles classified as light apcs, SdKfz 161/XX the various Panzer IV variants. If it was used by the german armed forces and was able to move on its own, it was a special-purpose vehicle and given a SdKfz ID.

So to make a long story short: the correct description of a ... say Panzer IV, F2 variant would be: SdKfz 161/1 Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf F2.

sources: and lots of books about aforementioned nuts.


 * Things are a bit more complex; the Sonderkraftfahrzeug designation would be used in a certain administrative context, e.g. when dealing with industry and of course spare parts supply. Not in a tactical context though. So such a description would be not so much more correct as more complete.

--MWAK 16:05, 7 July 2005 (UTC)

Relevance of a link
There's a link on the main article to panzer-drink.com, and I really don't see it's relevance to Panzer the armoured vehicle.


 * There was a mention of the vodka brand in the artile that was removed. I added it back. It's not important, but giving it a single line at the bottom doesn't hurt. I have no opnion on the link. If someone wants to remove it I won't complain. I imagine there are other external links we can provide that deal with the real subject of the article. -R. fiend 17:45, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

It just smacks of unnecessary commercialisation that's all. I think some links to notable authorities on panzer armoured vehicles would be a much more relevant substitute.

Panzerkampfwagen or Panzer Kampfwagen
I've seen the term written as two words Panzer Kampfwagen, and I notice that the abbreviation is often capitalized PzKpfw. Is one more correct, or has the usage changed? —Michael Z. 2005-12-12 00:58 Z 


 * @ Michael Z.

I am not aware that Panzerkampfwagen is a two-word term in German, because it actually would mean two different things not combined: a tank and an armed vehicle. As single term the meaning is tank or armoured vehicle.

The abbreviation PzKpfw as well as SdKfz is quite correct though as the german military is best known for a funny thing called "AKüFi" in short (one of the very few traditions adopted by the Bundeswehr from pre-1945 military tradition by the way ;-)) - I think it is for more easy reading compared to Pzkpfw. Written out it would be "PanzerKampfwagen" without space between but with a capital in the word; that is not approved in German.


 * Before the war it was not unusual to use a hyphen: Panzer-Kampfwagen. You can still see this in the titles of the famous Spielberger-series--MWAK 11:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * @ IP & MWAK

Today in Germany Panzer is a term covering all heavy armoured wheeled combat vehicles (like Spähpanzer "Luchs", Transportpanzer "Fuchs") and not necessarily heavy armoured caterpillars (like Kampfpanzer "Leopard", Brückenlegepanzer "Biber" and lightweight tanks "Wiesel" or M 113). It is quite evident that another tradition of the Wehrmacht kept is the nomination of tanks with animal names: main battle tanks are called by large cats of prey, wheeled vehicles and other caterpillar tanks by smaller mammals. The term Panzerkampfwagen is out of use. Peter W., Germany -- 194.231.228.118 12:26, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, today the common word for tank is (Kampf)panzer. But the change was a slow process, so it is not strictly true that no postwar tanks were ever referred to as Panzerkampfwagen.--MWAK 11:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

If you saw 'Panzer Kampfwagen' written in two words you just found a victim of a new raging pestilence in written German. In the course of the last three or so years, more and more Germans tend to divide words, that has been written together in one word for ages. It's known as 'Deppenleerzeichen' (idiot's space character). I say the ones to blame are the pupils of nowadays, who never in their life read a book, nor show any interest in learning. THIS WILL BRING THE WORLD TO AN END AND WE ALL GONNA DIE IN A FIRE! Nah, just kidding, I just hate this Deppenleerzeichen so much. --217.17.197.166 08:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It's happening in Dutch too. I blame using a key board (keyboard? key-board?). When typing very quickly the brain just can't cope and the very words disintegrate.--MWAK 07:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Introduction

 * ''A panzer is a tank, usually a Second World War German model. The term is rarely, if ever, used outside this context. Panzer also describes armoured forces, as in "panzer division".

"The term..." can be misunderstood because it is not just WWII, a quick Google on [Panzer NATO] or [Panzer Leopard] show that the term is still used:
 * about 84,600 English pages for NATO Panzer
 * about 71,800 English pages for Leopard Panzer

Taking a look at one of those pages http://www.arrc.nato.int/divisions/7gediv.htm (A NATO site URL), I think sums up the usage of the word Panzer in English. It is normally used to describe the formation in which tanks reside, but the tank itself, if described usually remains "main battle tank" or something similar. A Google search on "King Tiger Panzer" and "King Tiger Tank" indicates that this is true:
 * about 21 English pages for "King Tiger Panzer"
 * about 27,800 English pages for "King Tiger Tank"

It is also often used as a collective noun for tanks as in "Rommel launched his panzers". A Google returns "about 98,800 English pages for panzers Rommel". In this context it may also be used to describe an unidentified tank, as in "The rocket firing Typhoon destroyed a panzer ..." but a Google of "a Panzer" and "the panzer" both return less than a dozen pages.

So I think it would be a good idea to rewrite the first paragraph to reflect this. --Philip Baird Shearer 08:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Why is google searches used as a result of a naming system. just because it has more serches deosnt mean its coorect. liek searches often repat and display things that have notign that has to do with the artical. im just wondering why this is used a offical profe (Esskater11 23:50, 26 April 2007 (UTC))

'Panzer' is also a term used in European industrial machinery manufacture. 'Panzer Grade' or 'PG' is a coarse screw thread commonly used in offshore EX zone electrical installations and heavy industry. The thread was designed around WW2? to be used on the Panzer tanks and is still used extensively today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theraphosa Blondi (talk • contribs) 12:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Polish origin
I removed the speculation about the Polish origin of the word Panzer, which was definitively unfounded. Panzer is derived from Old French panciere, which istself is based on the Latin word pantex. Polish had no influence on this whatsoever. No doubt about it.

- You need to read this, then (which is not my entry): Towarysz Pancerny The words Pan Czerny mean Black Knight and these are the same as the German Schwarzenritter whence Tolkien's Black Riders are derived. As the article shows, it derives from the Old Polish word Pancerz meaning Chainmail. From there, I guess, one would need to know how old the word is relative to the French Pancier and whether there are any obvious prior linguistic derivations to settle the argument. I fancy the heraldic Panther of the Imperial Austrian Duchy of Styria (anciently, pre-Charlemagne, ethnically Slovene) might also come into play.

210.50.72.46 11:34, 29 October 2006 (UTC) Ian Ison


 * For what it's worth, the Online Etymolgical Dictionary gives the pantex- panciere- route. Also, panzer is used in other conexts, such as panzerschiff (armored ship}- the Deutschland class cruiser. As 210.50.72.46 says, Getrman for Black Night is Schwarzenritter. I can't imagine a connection there.   Cheers, :) Dlohcierekim  21:34, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Other Uses
I added the line about Civ III, forgot to log in before doing so. Just FYI. Cheers.--Mike 06:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Misleading Mistranslation
The article states that the "Panzer" as a noun means "tank". This is one use of the word (and it's an informal contraction in this use). It more usually means "armor". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.210.140 (talk) 21:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Removed "Other Uses"
It was either spam, trivia, or irrelevant uses of similar, but unrelated, words. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.210.140 (talk) 21:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

clearly inferior
I changed this to read "were in some respects inferior to some of their French and Soviet counterparts". It's true that the Russian tanks had more armour and a stronger cannon but they had no radio communications as did the tanks from Germany. More armour leads to more weight which hinders accleration and probably also top speed. Moreover the Russian cannons were considerably shorter than those from Germany and hence were deadlier in close combat but less accurate. In comparison to the German ones. Use at long ranges was futile. The serious inferiority of the German tanks was their numbers. In battle the Russiana outnumbered them at least by 10 to 1. Only coordinated tactics led to a defeat of the Russians in isolated combat.

AdrianAbel (talk) 12:50, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Panzerkampfwagen literal translation.
"The dated German term is Panzerkampfwagen, ‘tank’ or literally ‘armoured combat vehicle’"

Surly the literal translation of Panzerkampfwagen is "armoured chariot".

The German that would produce the literal translation of ‘armoured combat vehicle’ would be PanzerKampffahrzeug. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.182.117.127 (talk) 21:11, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * References, please. Or a novel translation for "Volkswagen": what you like more: "people's cart" or "people's risk". And 'Hochzeit' must be 'Up time'. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:08, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Cut the subject in two, translate both parts, merge them again = expect a way-off translation. --Denniss (talk) 01:02, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Loanword, not italicised
Per MOS:FOREIGNITALIC, Panzer is a loanword - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/panzer - so I have removed the italicised title. ( Hohum  @ ) 15:52, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Pointless article
Maybe we should move Panzer (disambiguation) here? There's no point in the article as it is. Volunteer1234 (talk) 12:08, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Seconded. I requested the move in Talk:Panzer (disambiguation). Staszek Lem (talk) 16:56, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Panzer (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 17:17, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Renamed Panzer tank
I'm boldly renaming this "Panzer tank" as I mentioned in the discussion, and redirecting again. I hope we can now move the disambig to Panzer without much opposition. Volunteer1234 (talk) 22:10, 17 May 2019 (UTC)


 * The consensus so far is that Panzer is a primary topic, regardless of whether it's redirected or not. Please don't move or redirect pages while discussions are ongoing. - BilCat (talk) 22:37, 17 May 2019 (UTC)