Talk:Pap of Armenia

Article's Tone Needs Reworking
The tone of this article needs to be significantly reworked on. Of course history is not entirely objective, but this article gives off a very pro-Roman and pro-Church vibe ("Pap proved a dissolute and unworthy ruler" St. Nerses I article), painting Pap as an 'evil' figure rather than recognizing him as an almost tragic figure, victim of his own great ambitions and designs.

In order to understand Pap's actions one must take into account the backdrop under which he was operating and in order to do this one needs to have a grasp of the social, cultural, religious, and political life of the Armenian kingdom at that point.

For instance, his poisoning of the Catholicos was motivated by more than merely 'evilness'. The Armenian Apostolic Church at that point in Armenia's history played a major and sometimes unwilling and obstructive role in the development of Armenia's politics and military. Firstly, they played a much more influential political role than suggested in these articles, in manipulating and orchestrating Armenia's political positions in regards to their neighbors, and, secondly, such large numbers of army-age men were being drafted into the monasteries that, in addition to already paying costly tributes to its powerful neighboring kingdoms, Armenia's war-capable demographic was being depleted at a severe cost (one which threatened Armenia's independence).

Well, this is what happens when you have one person write all the Armenian history articles on here. If I do get the time I will try to commit myself to contributing on many of these articles which are in dire shape, but nonetheless at least they are here and my thanks to everyone who has contributed time to these articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.166.238.146 (talk) 11:37, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Age
In the article of his mother Pharantzem is written that he is born in 360 (what seems reasonable). So in 370 he was only ten years old en gives him little power. (Peluba (talk) 08:07, 3 March 2021 (UTC))

Primary source
Hello. I think we should be careful with using P'awstos Buzand / Faustus of Byzantium, as he is a primary source (WP:PST, WP:PRIMARY). For example, M. L. Chaumont does not support the statement that Mushegh reconquered lost territory from Albania as mentioned in the article ("Meanwhile, sparapet Mushegh restored Armenia's former borders, brutally punishing the provinces that had revolted against the Arsacid monarchy, forcing the pro-Persian nakharars to submit to royal authority, and retaking territories from neighboring Albania and Iberia.")

Here is what Chaumont says in his Iranica article ;

"The more or less self-interested loyalty of the Albanians explains why the Sasanians helped them to seize from the Armenians the provinces (or districts) of Uti (with the towns of Xałxał and Pʿartaw), Šakašēn, Kołṭʿ, Gardman, and Arcʿax (Pʿawstos Biwzand, History 5.12, 13, in Langlois, Collection I, p. 288; idem, Armenian Geography, tr. A. Soukry, Venice, 1881, p. 39; cf. Markwart, Ērānšahr, p. 118; H. S. Anassian, “Mise au point relative à l’Albanie caucasienne,” Revue des études arméniennes 6, 1969, pp. 306ff.). These territories were to remain in the possession of Albania; a reconquest by Mušeł (cf. Pʿawstos, ibid.) was unlikely." HistoryofIran (talk) 00:58, 6 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I added a note to that effect in the body w/ reference to Manandyan, and changed the wording in the lead to refer only to the reconquest of "some former terrritories". Revolution Saga (talk) 02:39, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Noice. And great work on the article btw, Wiki articles related to the Late Antiquity/Middle Ages Armenia really need some love. You should deffo nominate this to GA when you are done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:39, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Revolution Saga (talk) 21:50, 6 August 2022 (UTC)