Talk:Papa bar Aggai

Use of Wigram
A lot of this article derives from Wigram, who relied heavily on the recently-published Chronicle of Erbil. The Chronicle of Erbil, allegedly by Mshiha-zkha, is a deeply contested text; either a 1902 forgery by Alphonse Mingana or, at best, an unreliable sixth-century history that rewrote the early history of the Church of the East to backdate the creation of the institution of the patriarchate and the foundation of the diocese of Erbil. The tradition of Papa's appeal to the West was forged by the Nestorian patriarch Joseph in the sixth century (Bar Hebraeus and others).

The term 'catholicus' only emerged in the second half of the fifth century, and is anachronistic for Papa. Papa was merely bishop of Seleucia-Ctesiphon, and at best primus inter pares. At the synod of Isaac in 410 the bishop of Seleucia-Ctesiphon was called the 'grand metropolitan'.

I'll try to do some work on this article when I have time.

Djwilms (talk) 07:18, 5 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, please do. I tried to emphasize that Papa was bishop of Seleucia-Ctesiphon, and that his notability is in starting a line of bishops that was later recognized as the heads of the church. I also tried to attribute the story of his consecration directly to "Mshiha-zca" (rather than just saying categorically that he was consecrated by two visiting bishops.)--Cúchullain t/ c 13:23, 5 March 2010 (UTC)


 * That's right. I've just checked what I've said about Papa in my forthcoming book, and this is the gist of it:


 * Papa was recognised not as a patriarch, nor even as an archbishop, but merely as the leading bishop of the Persian church. It could scarcely be otherwise, as the church in the Roman empire was not yet organised into the five classic patriarchates that existed in Justinian’s day.  Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch only became patriarchates in 381 and Jerusalem had to wait until 451 for recognition.  Nevertheless, the synod of 315 marked a decisive step forward in the self-definition of the Church of the East.  The bishop of Seleucia-Ctesiphon was henceforth recognised by most Persian bishops as the head of their church.


 * (I'll keep my account of the dramatic confrontation between Papa and his rebellious bishops to myself for the time being. You can read it when the book comes out next April!)


 * I deal with the invention of the early history of the Church of the East in considerable detail in my book. It occurs to me that our main onslaught on the cherished fictional traditions of the Church of the East is probably best deferred till next year.  When I eventually change the title of this article to Papa (bishop of Seleucia-Ctesiphon), it would be useful to be able to quote myself as an authority ...


 * Djwilms (talk) 02:06, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Still trying to flog your "forthcoming book"? "It would be useful to be able to quote myself as an authority" - Wikipedia perversions descend to new depths! Seriously, nobody should feel a wish to directly quote themselves on Wikipedia -apart from all the the obvious dangers, if something they have written is really required to be quoted to prove a claim, some other source would have also mentioned it. Meowy  02:56, 8 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Nice to hear from you again, Meowy. You must try not to get yourself blocked quite so often.  Wikipedia needs your particular brand of mindless nationalism.  Inspired by your example, I'm thinking of starting an article on the Battle of Hastings and calling it 'Saxon Genocide'.


 * By the way, I did enjoy your comments on the Anglican church just before you were blocked by Gareth Hughes. I wrote to him some time ago to try to enlist his support for getting Assyrian Genocide deleted or retitled, and he seemed to think that Europeans should pussyfoot around the Armenian massacres, because he knows an Assyrian whose grandmother was killed by the Kurds in 1915.  I thought of retorting that 60,000 Englishmen fell on the first day of the Somme in 1916.  Does that mean we shouldn't attempt to discover the objective truth about the battle?


 * Djwilms (talk) 08:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * My opinion is that you don't get objective truth from always thinking there are two sides to everything, any more than you get it from Anglicans who (as an easy way of not having to take a stance on anything) decide to have no opinion on anything. But you also rarely get objective truth from a book by an author who comes over as someone who wants to take an extreme or irregular outlook on his subject. On the Battle of Hastings - though the wikifags who wrote that article seem to think the only important aftermaths were a rather long tapestry and a few French loanwords, its aftermath (not the actual battle) could indeed be characterised as genocidal in nature, something which I remember "1066: The Battle for Middle Earth" (with some dramatic license) captured well. Meowy 13:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Enough. This conversation has stopped having anything to do with improving the article. Time to shut it down and get back on track.--Cúchullain t/ c 15:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Spoilsport. But thanks for retitling this article.  Slowly but surely, the truth will prevail.  Pity that 'Did You Know?' got it completely wrong, but there we are.
 * Djwilms (talk) 01:19, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Off-topic, but interesting. And harmless on an obscure talk page with but a single section on it. But I'll stop. Meowy 22:01, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Requested move dated 18 July 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved. RM opened by a sock. I'm going to boldly call my proposal uncontroversial. Srnec (talk) 00:31, 20 July 2022 (UTC) Papa (bishop) → Papa of Seleucia-Ctesiphon – Per notability. Papa Bar Aggai, or Papa, is the first historically attested bishop of Seleucia-Ctesiphon. It is unnecessary to provide a disambiguation here. Logosx127 (talk) 03:17, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment the Bishop of Rome also has the title Il Papa, so this current pagename definitely confusing -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 20:44, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Move to Papa bar Aggai per WP:NATURALDIS and GEDSH. Srnec (talk) 20:52, 18 July 2022 (UTC)