Talk:Paper/Archive 1

Wood-pulp Revolution
The revolution from linen & rag to wood-pulp was caused by a chemical process (whose name I am forgetting). Without it, woodpuplp was un-economical base to make paper from (I'm told there was a way to make paper by stripping bark from young saplings... but that's not economical). -- ~ender 2005-07-13 11:05:MST

Disambiguation page?
I noticed this is a disambiguation page, but I can't see any good reason for that. Have I misunderstood the use of that tag, or should it be removed from this page? Whitepaw 21:28, 2005 May 1 (UTC)
 * There was this notice by the tag: "There should be a page disambiguating Paper (the matterial) and Paper (scientific publication)". Certainly; however, this page does not fulfill that function, and is therefore not a disambig page.  I'd definately suggest that it be turned into one, though, and will try to do it when I get the time. - Haunti 10:40, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Another amusing observation
The article states that the manufacturing process has 4 steps, but there are only 3 headings listed underneath? Was a step forgotten or did the contributor just forget how to count :P Specialbrad 18:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Has been fixed recently.

Funny they talk about creating the raw pulp, but not about laying the paper - or creating the 'web'?

Which type of
paper is used for making photos?

Pece Kocovski 11:03, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

photographic paper ?

Photographic paper is made from a rag paper which is free from ligin and ph netural, (Silversafe) most high grade paper is machine mould made (not continuios web) with raw cotton linters in high grade gelatine size.

Enjoying Paper?
"This man is enjoying the many benefits of paper in a safe, healthy way."

This line is completely irrelevant to the article, as is the picture. Wikipedia's job is not to show how paper is enjoyed, but what paper is and what its function is. I am going to remove it once more -- those who want to keep it, please state why here. I find the picture and caption irrelevant, almost hilariously so. Alexander VII 14:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Sources of the article
Does anyone know of the sources of the article? There are links, but no references. If someone could add references, that wood be great. Bcem2 23:32, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Something about thickness
What is paper ? A 3D object. We have length, width, weight ... we want more. They say in

Bulk or Caliper : The thickness of a single sheet of paper, expressed in points. A point equals 1/1000 inch.

Blanks : Heavyweight boards ranging from 15 to 48 points in thickness, both coated and uncoated. Primarily used for package printing, point-of-purchase displays, poster cards, etc.

To evaluate, Google sez "(15/1 000) inch = 0.381 millimeters". But ... the article is made in such a way that I do not see where to add such info. Any ideas ? Thanks. --DLL 17:55, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

You can include it under "Preparation of the fibers", in 1.1. The section discusses both the preparation and the end result. If you want to talk about it, you can contact me at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dutchvanilla Dutchvanilla 23:36, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Paper is discussed by the people who use it. A printer will talk about points, subdivisions of printing type. A merchant will talk about ream caliper, the space it will take up in storage. A trditional bookbinder will not mention the thickness, as good paper is a amorphous web of fibres which has internal air pockets, the colour of the paper is detirmined by these pockets. the binder will press the paper for 3 months in folded sections, prior to sweing, and 2 months after sewing to compress the text block, only then will he measure the paper thickness, before he sets the spine in glue - and covers it with a binding.

Contradiction
The caption under the image in "Four great inventions of ancient china" says that Cai Lun is the inventor of paper, while the article "paper" says that this is unlikely, as there is evidence that paper existed several hundered years before Cai Lun was born. In addition, the article "paper" states that the word paper comes from the ancient egyptian "papyrus," and the article "cyperus papyrus" says that this is probably a fok etemology. 208.58.170.134 14:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately contradiction is between articles is pretty common here. I've fixed the Four greatest article's caption to say "widely regarded". The root of the word I have no idea about. Megapixie 17:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Paper may not have been invented by T'Cai Lun, he was the court official who told the emperor about its invention, and thus the man cited with its invention in History 105BCE. Our word for this material is actually tissue, or bark paper. Modern 'Paper' is more like the Arabic invention, inspired by Chinese paper, and comes from the fact that the Greek speaking scholars who first saw a sheet of paper mistook the product to be a new type of Papyrus, (which is in fact a laminate of reed stems, hammered together). Dave Calladine

Standard Paper Sizes
I think it would be informative to have a section about the standard sizes that paper is available in and history about why different sizes are used for different purposes and in different areas (why do Americans use 8 1/2x 11 as standard paper size while Europeans use a different size? why is 'legal paper' longer?) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.15.115.165 (talk • contribs) 17:17, 25 September 2006.
 * Quite so. The article you probably want is at paper size, which is linked from the 'see also' section here. Unfortunately the answers to your questions on why certain paper sizes exist are not very specific. -- Solipsist 17:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Paper Weight
What is paper weight? I have seen that it is measured in lb. Can someone clear this up for me?

gsm = Grams per Square Metre is standard in Europe. US may still use lb. Johnbod 03:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually there's loads on this above Johnbod 03:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Final Section: effect on environment
Can someone figure out how to delete that obnoxiously-written section at the end? I can't find where to change it, and it obviously does not belong in a wikipedia article. Thanks. 8.11.254.162 15:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC) Olivia

What is the price of paper?
I'm interested in the price of paper, say in dollars per 8 by 11 sheet, or dollars per square meter or something. I've been looking but can't find it. Fresheneesz 19:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I found the price of paper at OfficeMax to be about 1 cent per sheet. Fresheneesz 20:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

cheapest is .5 cents per page

most expensive is 1.3 cents per page Maverick423 22:16, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Ordinary Sheet of Paper
The most ordinary sheet of paper in the US in 2000 measures 8.5x11 inches, is sold in reams of 500 sheets, in cases of 10 reams, 20 lb weight, which equals 5 pounds per ream, 50 pounds for the case (net). Made from 100% clear-cut virgin Amazon rain forest, sold in office supply stores for about $25/case, so about half-cent per sheet.

The article should give this kind of basic real-world info. What is the equivalent for Europe? What is the most common sheet of paper for various countries?-69.87.200.211 12:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Take a look at the Paper size and Paper density articles.
 * --Anss123 13:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Durability of different types of Paper
Maybe something should be said about the durability of different types of paper. The paper used in money, for example, is durable thru several machine washings, whereas regular paper is not. This is (I believe) due to the fact that it is made from linen and other long-fibre materials, versus the short fibre wood pulp. But I could be wrong. -- ~ender 2005-02-27 10:06:MST — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.110.171.226 (talk) 16:43, 27 February 2005 (UTC)
 * It would also like to see something on durability, and the process breakdown of the fibers. E.g., would an expert contribute something about UV exposure turning cellulose to glucose?  --Theodore Kloba 14:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Paper, the type developed by Tai C' Lun was made from the bast fibers found in the bark of trees like the mulberry - exported to Japan, and still used in traditional paper, and from grass's. these fibers were not avliable in the far western provinces of China, the region where the army defeated in 751, at the battle of Talas was recruited. Thus the Arab army captured papermakers who had developed the traditional technique to be used with recycled materials, like clothes.

Papermaking started in Samarkand, and a shortage of water enabled the arabs to adapt the chinese method further, producing a thicker sheet of paper that was sun dried, and burnished with gum arabic to reduce its bulk. Unlike Chinese paper, and Papyrus, it could be written on both sides. The Technology was transfered to Baghdad, and Damascus, where it was sold to the Christians as Charta Damascura. The Early western europeans thought it was another form of Papyrus, and so called it Paper by mistake. The crusades distroyed the centre of production, and it was moved to Iran and Morish spain, where the first European papermill was constructed (Xiavia 1120). Rags, were used to make the fibres and bones the glue to seal them, as the europeans were not used to vegtable gums like the Arabs were.

First there ws a shortge of fresh glue (bones) so allum was added to the size to stop it rotting in warm weather. This introduced chemicals into the rag paper. Then the Dutch invented machines (Hollanders) to make the rag pulp in one day, as opposed to the 6 months required by the traditional rotting (retting) nd stamping method. The trditionl wooden stampers put in the odd oak fiber into the paper which would discoulour with time. Hollanders used iron combs, so rust spots appear around the 1750's. Also the rags were not heted up in a decomposition process, so specks of mould,(foxing) appear too. The rapid process also produces more damaged fibres, so the strnght of the paper is reduced marginally.

Then a shortage in rags led to specilist papers in the 18 century, Sailors uniforms were reduced down to blue sugar paper. ropes to brown wrapping paper. Soldiers uniforms to official recipts - hence English goverment recipts were pink, and French pale blue. Finally they looked at other fibres, and wood was discovered. Woodfibres however have a network polymer called lignin, which is reactive with UV light, and asorbs sulphur from the atmosphere. This turns the paper yellow when exposed to sunlight. Modern paper is treated by adding chalk to counter the acidic sulphur, and is bleached as well. But the chalk makes the fibers less durable. Chemicl (retting) process are used to prepare the fibres as well, which helps somewhat, but the pulp is still inferior to bank note paper, made from pure turkish linen.

David Calladine, Paper Conservator — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.77.26 (talk) 12:32, 5 July 2007 (UTC( (UTC)

Paper and cultural advancement
From the article:

Some historians speculate that paper was the key element in global cultural advancement. According to this theory, Chinese culture was less developed than the West's in ancient times because bamboo (although abundance of materials is generally the primary reason for the use of bamboo as opposed to scientific prowess) was a clumsier writing material than papyrus; Chinese culture advanced during the Han Dynasty and preceding centuries due to the invention of paper; and Europe advanced during the Renaissance due to the introduction of paper and the printing press.

Does anyone know where I could read more about this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.238.98.112 (talk) 15:55, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I m sorry, but archilogical evidence suggests that China was in fact more advnced in many areas. As were many of the Pagan cultures outside of Rome, which is the dominant culture in Western europe. So if great chunks of the globe were in fact more advanced than (Rome) Western Europe, it is history which is at fault, in that it is written by the victor, and Rome, as it continued by the Western Church, held back European development for over 500 years by some very niffty editing of the facts. Its the Arab development of Papermaking that saved this information for us Europeans to re-discover. Unlike Papyrus, early paper can be written on both sides and does not fall into little squares with age. Its not paper, but what you do with it.

Paper is a Chinese invention, however it can be argued that it held back thier development somewhat, because it is so smooth to write on, the Chinese system of writing was frozen in a very early form. Thus the Chinese with all thier technological advancements could not easily share and develop those ideas.

Writing is developed by the material that the information is written upon. Cuniform was triangular and angular because that is what is easier to read on wet clay. But cuniform is heavy and was restricted to the royal archives, so the Hittites and Messopotainas who used it never advanced above the competition.

Likewise, Egyptian was developed on soft sandstone and linen sheets, thus pictures were never shortened to make them easier to write. Egypt was fast in setting up taxes and a military system, but was held back because the new papyrus writing material was exclusivly retained for the rich to guide them through the afterlife, stored in scrolls too heavy for ordinary folks to hold. Egypt stood still whilst Greece, Carthage and Rome flourished. Religion was associated with the writing, thus it was not developed further.

Greek is written left to right because the first pens would blot on the papyrus if they were forced over the rough surface the opposite direction. But they had an additional problem, they had to carve into hard marble, so adapted thier aphabet into a much simplier form. The Greeks got Papyrus very late in thier history, thus has a simplified alphbet, and used it to spread thier knowlege in libraries and museums.

The Chinese developed from similar pictures to the Egyptians, but had been forced to make scratches on (Oracle) bone as they did not have a smooth surface. Of course, Chinese pictures were developed into characters, but an early development of silk then paper held back Chinese development in the modern age, as the charichters are harder to print. The writing system never developed. The royal and religious texts were formed, and science was stuck with a rigid writing form.

The development of the Arabic 22 letter alphabet developed out of a shortage of writing materials - is written right to left because they first wrote on linen sheets. Its the natrual way to write, as you can see the margin, and adjust your letters to look neater. However Fate held back the Great Arabic empires. Arabic vowels added as dots, proved so hard to add to typecast lead letters, that printing never took off despite the technology hitting Ciaro in 1300, because they had a good writing surface they had flourished, but an unfortunate link of thie alphbet to the holy texts meant that they were ultimatley held back in the industurial era.

The chinese invented printing 700 years before Gutenberg, however, because Gutenberg was using Roman (Latin) letters, developed from Greek - for carving onto hard marble surfaces, he had only to mke 26 letters for his moveabal type. The Chinese still use 900 symbols. China is only just entering the industurial age with the development of the computer, like the Middle East.

In the West however, the roman text was not linked to religion, it was a pagan invention, and thus it was not sacred and could be adapted, changed and modified. Paper was a cheap material that allowed printing to spread knowlege and that is what caused global advancement.

David Calladine, Paper Conservator. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.77.26 (talk) 13:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

What about Mesoamerica?
I noticed that this article is very Eastern Hemisphere. What about adding a section on Mesoamerican paper-making? There's a Wikipedia article available on amate (amatl) paper, made from fig tree bark... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.55.45.78 (talk) 23:46, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

1. most societies, including the Saxons in England wrote on tree barks 2. most early writing materials do not survive into archeology 3. the conquest of America was aCCOMPANIED BY THE BURNING ON ALL HERITICAL material, which included many books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.77.26 (talk) 14:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Papermaking
The article on papermaking is only on the history of papermaking and gives a very brief description about how to make a sheet of paper by hand. There is no point directing anyone to that article for a description of the modern papermaking process. This article does a much better job, although it does need some additional information, for example about beating the pulp to free the fibers before laying down the sheet. Beating is acknowledged as the most important step in papermaking, yet is not even mentioned in the article.Silverchemist 04:35, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Amusing observation
Is it just me, or is the image of 'piece of paper' a candidate for the blandest, most inane and yet subtly hillarious image on all of wikipedia?
 * I resemble that remark, I'm the one who put it up here! After all, if we're going to have an article about something, shouldn't we include a picture?  Paul Robinson 23:30, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not just you. Subtly hilarious is right, but what else you gonna do? It's paper! 132.234.251.211 03:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

So A picture of...Paper? Girlvader21 6:55, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * What about a photo with several types of paper: newsprint, rag, photographic, colored, handmade, Japanese? I'd do it, lol, but I'm averse to paper cuts from fellow Wikis. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 09:54, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Paper Weight
The weight of paper, 20lbs, 24lbs, 68lbs, etc could be discussed. Or is that in another article? 20-24lbs is generally printing paper, 68lbs is cover stock, and 110+lbs is card stock. The story of that weight is- when paper is produced, it is all made into a standard size sheet, no matter what the thickness, and then cut. A full uncut sheet (I'm not sure of the size) will weigh 24lbs, 68lbs, etc.

At least, this is what a sales person from Hammermill told me when Hammermill switched machines and tried to change the weights of their papers, creating mass confusion. Can any one refute or confirm this? I think it would be cool to have in the article, but I don't have any sources.

Would you mind to let me konw how to change lbs to gsm? Newone 10:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm going to add it, sources or no - it's important and should be included.128.122.193.222 13:57, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I added a paraphrased explanation from an official Hammermill publication. By-the-way, paper is NOT all made all into the same basic uncut sizes, so any further mods might want to avoid implying that's the case. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 10:15, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Paper Weight Demystified
Paper weight is an easy to understand formula when using metric measure. In metric measure all paper weight is based on how many grams per square meter per single sheet of paper or G/M2. So you might see a weight the likes of 100 G/M2 or 90 G/M2. All paper grades are measured in this same manner in metric paper measure.

On the other hand paper weight in imperial measure which is used primarily in North America is slightly confusing. All imperial paper weights are measured depending on the most popular end use of a particular grade. So you might have a text paper, cover paper, bond paper or writing paper to name a few of the more common paper basis weight categories. Each of these paper grades has its own “basis size” and then is measured by weighing 500 sheets of each basis size. As an example a text paper is based on the basis size 25 x 38 x 500 sheets = X lbs. and is referred to as an X lb. text paper.

Here’s the confusing part. You can have two sheets of the same paper and weigh each of the sheets based on different basis sizes and you will have two different paper weights for the same sheet of paper. Because of this peculiar situation you must always know which basis size is being referenced. When a paper is referred to as an 80 lb. without the basis qualifier, text, cover, etc. you cannot be sure what weight of paper is being referenced. It could be a text basis or a cover basis or any basis of the many basis sizes commonly used in North American paper measure. Therefore, to be clear and accurate when you are describing a paper’s weight you must always identify the paper you are describing by calling it X lb. text, X lb. cover, X lb bond, X lb. writing or the same with any of the other basis size categories when X indicates the paper’s weight.


 * Good Lord, what a mess. Yet another reason we should all switch over to the metric system. [sigh]   —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.6.66.193 (talk • contribs) 21:30, January 17, 2007  (UTC)


 * Metric conversion, yes, but it won't help, here. This issue arises because manufacturers apply a weight to paper when it's in any number of basic forms which end customers do not see and are unaware of. There's no explanation how what they are seeing has been cut down -- or from what basic size it's been cut down. What would help is if manufacturers adopted something more intuitive -- such as the weight of 1 square inch of 500 sheets. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 10:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I have some paper weight charts and paper weight calculators which are very helpful. However this link is to a commercial site with helpful and very accurate information. If any Wiki's are offended please find replacement information prior to removing these helpful links to paper weight calculations and paper weight calculators.


 * Thanks for the info — I was wondering about the mysterious subject of paper weights myself. Maybe if you have time [regretfully, I don't], you'd like to add your insight into the article itself? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.6.66.193 (talk • contribs) 21:30, January 17, 2007  (UTC)

I think you problem is that you are trying to describe paper in terms of North America, the last place on earth where it was historically manufactured in the traditional manner.

Paper was made in a mould, the paper was formed on a wire support, which would show up in the finished sheet as a (watermark) light pattern. the thickness of the paper was detirmed by the depth of the frame which was used to hold the paper pulp over the support, whilst the water was pulled through by suction. The dimensions of the frame were historically give names, and the papermakers mate, the coucher (layer) would lay these in a pile of 480 (English) or 500 (French) sheets with felt seperators in between. This pile was then pressed to remove the excess water, and hung over raop for 6 months to dry. that pile was called a ream, and paper was sold by the ream, expressed by its weight.

Paper was made locally to where it was used, so standard sized sheets (with local variation) were made for particular jobs. The royal, used by government in England used to have the royal crown and arms on it, until Oliver Cromwell decided to remove them in the English Cival War (1640). When asked what to replace them with, he suggested a clowns hat, and thus a Fools cap (foolscap) watermark and paper size was established. As printing improved, so the demand for larger sheets of paper was created. Imperial was superceeded by Elephant, and Double imperial, until the invention of the papermaking machine created a continous roll of paper.

Modern paper is sold by a German system, where two sheets of A4 paper plced side by side will equal one sheet of A3. the weight is expressed as its Gramms per Square Meter, but there was an Imperil system in oz per square Inch. However it arrived too late, and the German system of A sizes was more easier to understand.

Dave Calladine, Paper Conservator.

Paper Technology Centre
I removed this - "In 2006, the world's first "Paper Technology Centre" was opened in Heidenheim, Germany, the headquarters of the Voith paper machine company, at the cost of 75 million euros" The reasons:
 * It is not the first. Nearly every major paper maker, and supplier to the paper, industry has a technology centre. And many, many of these were established before 2006.
 * The removed claim is simple publicity for one company.
 * The external link which was supposed to give supporting evidence to the claim does not even mention the centre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.217.219 (talk) 19:55, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Moved
Moved this paragraph to the papyrus & parchment section: "In America, archaeological evidence indicates that a similar parchment material was invented by the Mayans no later than the 5th century AD. Called amatl, it was in widespread use among Mesoamerican cultures until the Spanish conquest." Added this summary sentence: 'The parchment is created by boiling and pounding the inner bark of trees, until the material becomes suitable for art and writing.' Reasons being the Mayan parchment resembled papyrus of the ancient Egyptians, and wouldn't be 'paper' as in being made of the finely ground pulp and plant fibers. Intranetusa (talk) 04:29, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Re: Opaqueness of Paper?
Very heavy book paper (like what's used in textbooks) generally has a mineral coating on each side applied after the paper was originally dried.'''Exactly what that coating is made of is usually a closely-guarded trade secret, but basic constituents are usually some kind of clay or opaque mineral or mixture thereof (kaolin or ground calcium carbonate are often used and sometimes titanium dioxide and most recently hollow latex particles), a plasticizer (often latex) and rheology adjustment chemicals (so that the coating can be run at high speed on the machinery). The make-up is adjusted depending on what pronate and chemicals such as fluorescent whitening agents are also added to improve the optical properties before the coating.

Coating weights can often make up a substantial amount of the paper weight.

Potassium sulfide is water soluble and generally wouldn't stay with paper as it was formed. So no matter the optical properties, probably wouldn't make an economically feasible opacifier.

David Abrecht: B.Sc. - Paper Science and Engineering - 2007, NC State University Raleigh, NC, USA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.215.8.239 (talk) 00:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Mulberry Paper
Paper made from mulberry trees was created in Korea, not in Japan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.36.193.198 (talk) 19:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Wrong, Bhuddish monks from India took the idea of the leaf book and Bhuddism into China in Muthabah script on Palm leaves. Then they trained Chinese monks to spread the stutra, and some took Bhuddish ideas on Chinese mulberry paper written in Chinese charachters into Korea. The chinese liked the indian leaf books, so they copied them in paper and silk, creating the concentina book.

These trained Korean Monks, who took the Indian ideas about Bhuddism on Chinese paper, in Korean variations of the chinese concentina books written in Chinese charachters into Japan. The Japanes thanked the Monks by Inventing Printing, and sending back that idea via Korea to China. The Koreans also invented movable type, but the new alphabaet of 98 charachters proved two expensive to manufacture, so It never took off. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.77.26 (talk) 15:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Disagree According to Joseph Needham "Science & Civilization in China" it was China who came up with printing first. But do the impractically of movible type for the Chinese character system it was discontinue and single wood block printing which can be easily carved for characters was used more readily.

The concept of books in China came from slivers of bamboo tied together to form a page.

Bill-

Tuesday, March 11, 2008 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.201.225 (talk) 00:57, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Reflectivity
What is the range of reflectivity (reflectance) of ordinary white paper? What other tech parameters are used in the trade? This article needs a lot of improvement!-69.87.200.211 12:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

THEY USED LEAVES!!!!! LOL OR THEIR HANDS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.111.7 (talk) 17:10, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Opaqueness of Paper?
Does anyone know what the additive is that makes bookpaper so heavy? Someone told me it was Potassium sulfide, to make it opaque. Is it?165.123.133.200 (talk) 14:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Some types of paper are "heavy" (dense) because they contain inorganic fillers like calcium carbonate, titanium dioxide or clay to increase the opacity. Potassium sulfide would be dissolve in water and not be retained in the paper. Silverchemist (talk) 17:44, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Invisible Paper?
Maybe I'm missing something, but the only Google results I can find for Gaskell Industries are circular references back to this article. I believe the line about invisible paper should be removed.--209.147.158.112 (talk) 13:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. The statement is unsourced and seems to be a joke. Kafka Liz (talk) 13:57, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Papier is Dutch too
At the bottom of the page there is: Papier, disambiguation page, paper in French or German

But papier is Dutch too. I need 2 more edits before I can edit it myself though. Villadelfia (talk) 00:32, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

What is papier? Ypu can delete this but answer my question —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bennerh (talk • contribs) 11:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi
Okay How is paper Used today In tring to find that but i cant find it so please help me —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.154.172.95 (talk) 17:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hello student from California. Try reading the article, and perhaps you find "Applications" and Category:Paper together with the other categories listed in the bottom of the article interesting? --Langbein Rise (talk) 09:13, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Pressure-Sensitive Paper
This is not listed in Wiki. Information is required. 122.160.111.67 (talk) 09:22, 23 January 2009 (UTC) Irfan, Lucknow India.
 * It is a bit short and needs some work, but it is there: Pressure sensitive paper. --Langbein Rise (talk) 09:15, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Citation for paper types, sizes, and weights
For the sentence regarding citation required for the history of the "US Letter" (8.5" x 11") standard, one can simply reference the Wikipedia article on "paper sizes" in where they discuss the possible history as well as cite references to the American Forest and Paper association. On that page they include as references additional articles, namely Kuhn and Dunn who have also written about this subject, linked below in case their links cease functioning:

Kuhn, Markus. 1996.

Dunn, A. D. 1972. Notes on the Standardization of Paper Sizes.

Hbien (talk) 22:16, 19 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Per citing Wikipedia, see WP:V. Per the other references, WP:BEBOLD. AngoraFish   木  02:56, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

History Islamic paper
I believe someone needs to mention the change of Chinese paper by the Islamics (civilization) from the brush form to the pen form. Faro0485 (talk) 17:01, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Usage of the Term "Arabs" is incorrect
In the first line of the 11th paragraph ("where the Arabs invented a method to make..."), usage of the term "Arabs" is incorrect as not all the people living in the Islamic Empire were Arabs. There were Persians and Turks and many other ethnic groups as well. Use the term "Muslims" instead. Amirms (talk) 18:38, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Given that Baghdad was the capital of the Arab Empire at the time, the term "Arabs" seems appropriate in this context. haz (talk) 09:13, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * A better term would be Islamic. The term islamic is used. We recall that the civilization was not Arab, it was Islamic (post islam, not post arabs - which arabs are as ancient as ancient). Faro0485 (talk) 17:03, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The introduction of paper into Europe, from muslims through Catalonia

 * Tradition wants that Arabians began to manufact paper after having made some Chinese papermakers prisoner in the Battle of Talas (original reference), near Samarkand, in AD 751. Reference: History Today Mag, Jun 2009 par7133 01:30, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Antioch was a traditional papermaking coast town, but after the Crusader seige of 1096, production moved to Damascus and up to the 9th crusade of 1272 it was used to ship the Charta Damascura to Europe.


 * Paper remained known like that for many years before to enter in Muslim Spain via Marocco. Reference: History Today Mag, Jun 2009 par7133 01:30, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The first european paper mill was started in Xativa (Valencia) in year 1150 by Arabians.


 * but there is archaeological evidence for paper in use in the same location from 1056. Reference: History Today Mag, Jun 2009 par7133 01:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Christians conquered Valencia in 1238 and maintained this fertile industry. King Jaume I was the first king in Europe to use paper for official documents. Paper was not readily accepted everywhere and Catalonia kept a leading position in the making of paper for three centuries more.


 * Renaissance artists and lawyers contributed to the rise of paper. At first, Italian lawyers began to use paper to record deeds, later written records of contracts and other legal transactions became more popular. Reference: History Today Mag, Jun 2009 par7133 01:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

In 1260, Mamluk sultanate shifted the Empires capital to Cairo and violent crusade attacks happened causing the arabian production start to decrease.

By 1284 european paper trade was very important ; there were only two producers: Catalonia and Lombardia (Italy);


 * Italian paper manufacturing centers of Amalfi and Fabriano (Italy) flourished competing with Catalonia.


 * In the beginning of the 15th century latter developments and the defeat of Damacus under Timor and his Mongol hoard (original reference) constrained Arabs to abandon their production and import cross signed paper from Europe, causing religious concerns and the emission of a fatwa. Reference: History Today Mag, Jun 2009 par7133 01:45, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Developed in Germany the printing press arrived to England by William Caxton in 1476. Mainland businesses started to flourish by the publication of texts in english, religious texts, very lucrative activity, official documents, but literature too, and particularly concentrated in London, Oxford and Cambridge. Other texts like the scholar books, in Latin, continued to be imported. Reference: V&A, Jun 2009 par7133 11:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

For many years Church remained the only literate community and thus the main parchment customer. When printing press was reinvented by Gutenberg, paper appeared superior to parchment and wide spread for ecclesiastic uses too (original reference).

In Catalonia it was called "paper" and in Italy it was called "carta". Paper was made by the first time in France in 1318 where it was named "papier catalan". Paper production in Holland began in year 1340 in a mill founded by catalan craftsmen.

The catalan name "paper" was exported to many european languages. German: papier, English: paper, Polish: papier, Check: papir, Croacian: papir. Other languages (Russian: bumaga) took the root from the Greek word for "cotton".

The word paper comes in turn from papyrus, an egiptian plant used to make a different kind of material. Arabians learned the art of making paper after the conquest of Samarcanda, in year 751. **And the last sentence must be referring to the Battle of Talas, I guess (moved above par7133 11:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC)).

'Paper' is a Greek word, 'Charta' the Latin word, the two languages of the Reformation. The Byzantium church had continued to use parchment, invented in Permagum. where the Russian Orthadox word for paper comes from.

By 1284, most of the paper in Europe, still a new material - was being imported from the Middle East. Antioch was a traditional papermaking town on the coast, but after the Crusader seige of 1096, production was moved to Damascus, however, up to the 9th crusade of 1272 it was used to ship the Charta Damascura to Europe. The production was decreasing, as the Mamluk sultanate had shifted the Empires capital to Ciaro 1260 because of the crusade attacks. (moved above par7133 11:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC))

In 1272 the flow stopped, and Fabriano in Italy became the new source of this material. Charta Papyir stopped being produced after Timor and his Mongol hoard sacked Damacus in 1400. Paper was a cheap alternative to parchment, because the church was the only literate society, and thus its only customer. When printing was re-inveted by Gutenberg, paper had a use, where it was superior to parchment, and thus papermaking spread. The words used reflecting the European language of the reformation - Greek and Latin (moved above par7133 11:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC)). Dave Calladine

Production figures
If anyone could add figures for paper production by type of paper and country, % of recycled materials, woodpulp, other materials it would be great. (Pulp and paper industry only have Export figures for the US) It would supply a good reference source for environmental dicussions. THKS. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 10:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * According to the Home (documentary) and the FSC, paper production/consumption has risen by 500% in the last 50 years. See http://www.fsc-watch.org/archives/2008/07/03/What_s_the_alternative —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.243.178.120 (talk) 06:54, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Dead GPO link
The US GPO standards are now at. Would someone please update the link? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.170.128.65 (talk) 18:17, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

See also section
Arches paper => Arches is not a type of paper, it is a paper brand, currently part of Arjowiggings group, could be replaced by a link to Category:Art_materials_brands. --Anneyh (talk) 20:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Aging
Paper, i guess especially acid paper, darkens with age. Deserves some discussion, perhaps along with the slow fire coverage in Paper. --Jerzy•t 03:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Paper made with mechanical pulp, which retains most of the original lignin from wood, will yellow and degrade with age. Newsprint is a common use for mechanical pulp. Bleached chemical pulp, like fully bleached kraft pulp, makes paper which is light stable and not prone to degradation with age. "Slow fire" resulted from the use of alum (aluminum sulfate) in papermaking. Alum makes the paper acidic (pH approx 4.5), allowing acid hydrolysis of the glycosidic bonds which join glucose units together to make cellulose. I will see what I can do to address these issues in this and related articles.  Silverchemist 20:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Also,the process of "Yellowing" should be included:

The lignin in the cellulose of paper, will eventually turn paper yellow in the process of oxidation when exposed to sunlight and air. However, in making fine whhite paper, the lignin is separated and discarded by use of a chemical solvent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.244.130.72 (talk) 00:22, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

No mention of Maya paper
In the introduction their is mention of the development of paper in ancient Egypt, China as well as islamic and European methods. It does not include the third ancient method of paper production of Mezoamerica particularly the Maya codices. The article is locked, could someone add the link. I will update the history of paper article. Tabhara (talk) 21:14, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

A zero
sorry, it is already a topic in 'paper sizes' zarai waszz heree

''I would like to add the dimensions of a A zero 84 x 118,8 cm'' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Herwigneefs (talk • contribs) 17:21, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Wood-Based Paper vs Wood-Free Paper
Typo in main text - [Secion on Chemical Pulping 3rd Paragraph] alluded to Wood-Free paper being the same as Non-Wood Papers. Minor Edit Richard416282 (talk) 05:55, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 69.200.224.93, 12 June 2010
Add the following key, conversion table and formula to the "Types, Thickness and Weight" section and tag as "North American paper measurements":

Key: "#", "lb", and "pounds" are used interchangeably to refer to standard paper weights for different types of paper. (Citation: http://www.theofficeguide.com/copy-paper/ See: "Copy Paper" - "Paper weight is specified by basis weight in pounds (# or lb.)")

One way to describe paper is in terms of having a certain standard weight (regardless of the actual quantity, size, or physical composition of the given paper). Examples of paper description in terms of standard paper weight: "an 8.5" x 11" sheet of 20 lb copy paper;" "a case of 32# bond paper;" "10 packs of 8" x 5" 24 pound paper," etc.

Formula: Mass of nonstandard paper = mass of a standard paper ream X “area ratio” X “weight ratio.”

"Area Ratio" = area of sheet in question / area of standard sheet (93.5 square inches)

"Weight Ratio" = standard weight # of typical sheet / 20# sheet

Mass of a standard (8.5" x 11", 20#) paper ream = 5 lbs. .

Citation: http://eetd.lbl.gov/paper/counting/html/purchasing.htm (see: "Non-Standard Paper" and "An Example" but DO NOT use the incorrectly given 2.5 lbs as the standard weight of a ream of 8.5" x 11", 20 lb copy paper. The correct weight of a 500-sheet ream of 8.5" x 11", 20 lb copy paper is 5 lbs as explained elsewhere in Wikipedia as well as here: http://www.theofficeguide.com/copy-paper/ - scroll down to "Paper Properties/Weight")) The above tables result from simple geometric calculations.

69.200.224.93 (talk) 03:26, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Would love to add, but Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -- &#47; DeltaQuad &#124; Notify Me &#92; 19:13, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the summary provided in paper is long enough. Paper density provides additional information that seem to me similar to the request. --Anneyh (talk) 06:05, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Alternatives to Wood for Modern Production of Paper
In the matter of environmental concerns and general information regarding paper, some mention of alternatives to wood should be mentioned, such as kenaf and hemp. Surprising that this is missing, especially considering that around 9% of all paper manufactured world-wide comes from sources other than wood. There is an oblique reference in the second sentence of the article, but then no more mention is made of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Contraverse (talk • contribs) 11:07, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Paper
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Paper's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "bier": From History of paper:  From Papermaking:  From Pulp (paper):  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 08:36, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed Langbein Rise (talk) 13:06, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Paper History Review
This article on paper is pretty good. It gives an accurate definition of what paper is, what it's made of, and it's history. It also tell how it's made, how it can be recycled, what are the different ways in which paper is used, the types of paper, and possibly the future of paper. There are some missing sources for some of the sections in the article such as in the history section and the types, thickness and weight. the illustrations are useful because they help to show they different types of paper there are, the tools used with paper, and what paper materials look like up close. It does cover the subject quite throughly except for the history section is a little off with it's information on what was used to make paper in China, and it also doesn't talk about what types of materials were first used for paper in the Middle Ages that was difference from the paper used in China. The article doesn't read like a mash-up of many author's it's very clear and concise and makes sense of the article. HIST406-10floey11 (talk) 03:45, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Volvuspa, 12 October 2010
Citation needed: Suggestion for literature reference to earliest paper production (China 2th century AD): David Diringer "The Book before Printing", N.Y. 1953 p. 345.

Volvuspa (talk) 21:18, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Done Thanks! I changed the year to reflect the Dover edition, which is the first with that title and location.See this page at google books. Celestra (talk) 14:04, 13 October 2010 (UTC) You're welcome. But please note that this book does not go into details on Chinese paper production, and its chronology is not very precise. I provided this reference because I had the book in front of me and a citation was needed, but please substitute it with more recent research if you can find it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Volvuspa (talk • contribs) 18:49, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Wallpaper as "Packaging"
Is Wallpaper really correctly categorized as "packaging?" Maybe it would be more reasonable to make a new first-level bullet for "decoration" or some such, perhaps also classing "art" there. --63.166.226.83 19:26, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

'''different types of papers:normal paper,marble paper,tissue paper,glossy paper,velvet paper,handmade paper,crepe paper,transparent paper,cartridge paper,cellophane paper,foil paper,newspaper,watercolor paper,glitter paper,gift paper,butter paper,carbon paper,chart paper,sand paper,graph paper,etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.97.162.202 (talk) 14:08, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Mention of, and links to, paper production and its environmental impact?
I can't believe that an article of this length and depth on such a fundamental product as paper has absolutely no mention of the massive environmental impact of modern paper production or direct and obvious links to such information. There is a link to the Papermaking article, which again does not mention environmental issues directly, although this in turn links to the Pulp and Paper Industry article which does, although the piece is very short and rather inadequate. When I get around to it I will fix this problem if no-one else does. Spiridens (talk) 08:45, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I had the same thought too. Found these info: paper is the leading source of waste in the US. In fact it accounts for up to 40% of total waste, which adds up to 71.6 million tons of paper waste per year (from EPA site). And this has the recent, updated stats: http://www.epa.gov/osw/nonhaz/municipal/msw99.htm

Anyways, BE BOLD. Please add it in if you can. Anyone who knows about the topic can help add to the article. Just make sure to have reliable sources. I've started the section under "Environmental impact of paper" and linked to the main article. See paper pollution as well. - M0rphzone (talk) 07:41, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Is Papyrus & Mayan parchment considered paper?
The Egyptian papyrus and the Mayan parchments are both created from pounding reeds and/or tree park. Paper however, is made from shredding and pressing together cellulose fibers, rags, or pulp. Therefore I don't think that would meet the definition of "paper"? Intranetusa (talk) 00:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

You are right. these are not paper. --Wayiran (talk) 21:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Reeds and bark contain cellulose, as does virtually all plant matter. Ancient historical 'paper': Egyptians used reeds, Mayans used bark, Chinese used rags or plant inner bark (bast fibres) e.g. mulberry & bamboo.
 * Modern paper uses none of these things - it uses wood, and it began in the 1800s in Europe (see Fourdrinier machine)
 * I am yet to see a reliably sourced definition of paper that would include Chinese 'paper' but exclude papyrus (or Mayan paper). The ancient Chinese may be able to be credited with the incremental step of moving from the Egyptian shredding+pressing to pulping+pressing, but that's it.Utopial (talk) 10:28, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

As Utopia1 said, there are many kinds of paper. Papyrus paper as developed by the ancient Egyptians was definitely paper under any definition that would include early chinese paper. Nowadays we have common, low quality paper from wood, higher quality stuff from rags, one of the highest quality papers is made from hemp, and is, I believe, what paper money is traditionally made from. Miriam e (talk) 15:22, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Elephant dung paper
Hi, there are some pictures on Commons related to the practice of making such paper. Do you have any ideas where they could be placed, since I can't find a related article? Thank you. --Elitre (talk) 15:30, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Brightness
Office paper is rated for brightness; is there a place to work that into the article?


 * Paper brightness (albedo) is relevant to more than just office paper. It comes up in printing, photography, and color-grading diamonds, just to name a few. The albedo of white paper is usually on the label as well as the advertizement, e.g., when purchasing paper online. In North America brightness is usually given in TAPPI numbers, also known as GE or TAPPI/GE. Two other systems are ISO and D65. [more info on TAPPI, ISO, and D65] Office paper sold in the US will typically have a label that looks something like this: "Premium Laser Paper, 98 GE/114 ISO, 24 lb, 500/SH, White" ISO numbers tend to be higher because they have a different way of measuring albedo. The GE systems filters out ultraviolet while ISO doesn't. With fluorescence you can have an albedo greater than 100%.


 * A related concept, whiteness, has to due with color saturation, or lack thereof.


 * Color-grading diamonds is done on special trays made of white bright paper (or card-stock) folded into a v-shape at the bottom so that the stone's table (face) rests on white paper and so that, when viewed from the side, white paper is in the background. The difference between one color-grade and the next is so slight that most people can't see the difference even under ideal laboratory conditions. Zyxwv99 (talk) 22:47, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

POV in the "Conservation" section.
The whole section sounds very POV and unsourced, especially ''Several major Asian producers, for example, with strong connections to their respective Governments and bureaucracy have been systematically stripping rainforest for many years. Often the logs are transhipped to other countries to disguise the damaging trade and These concerns are not merely side issues but rather display the comprehensive problems that occur when production dominates thinking. As in many problems over the years the mistaken belief is, and has traditionally been, that nature can cope. The short answer now is that nature cannot and increasingly the state of the ecosystems has been rendered such that the position has, and is becoming, terminal.'' Joyous 00:57, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)


 * Yeah I removed it all. It was all added by User:Vince over a year ago.  He has also created such decidedly POV articles as Vested interests and side issue, among others.  -- brian0918  &#153;  17:00, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Paper is made from soft woods, not hardwoods. The fibres in rainforest trees are short and fat, and have vast amounts of network polymers (ligin) surrounding them. Thus they are unsuitable for making paper. Other plants in the region, Manilla sisal is much better.

Soft wood fibers are much longer, and more suitable for paper production, and the paper industury plants about three times more trees than it cuts down, as an insurance policy against forest fire or diesese preventing its future production. It has to think about 20 years ahead, and is one of the most environmental of industuries. The logs are floated down the rivers, to the mills, the bark is turned into compost for the saplings of future planting, and also sold to garden centres. the finish product is then shipped by rail or sea.

Recycled paper is however the bug threat. it takes three times the energy and some nasty chemicals to remove the ink and other media from a piece of paper, than it does to produce a new sheet. The recycled paper is so weak, that it not durable for any length of time, so is only fit for nsty toilet paper of middles of cardboard box industury, and the carbon foootprint in recycling this productas paper is enourmous. It would be better to burn the old paper.

Dave Calladine, Paper Conservator

...Dave that sounds a bit dodgy to me - I was always under the impression that paper was an environmentally destructive product (chemicals to produce/whiten etc), and I doubt that recycling paper uses three times the energy than virgin pulp to produce... actually IMO none of the paper pages on wikipedia really explain how damaging paper is to the environment.

... dave, your perspective also sounds like another extreme POV, when you talk about recycled paper being so weak. But, your perspective might be right, so is there some way you can better explain the math behind the assertation that paper isn't damaging? There is a simple observation I will make. All paper requires land and machinery. Land that is used for paper - as in - replanted forests are not nearly like the original virgin rainforests or forests or grasslands. To turn grassland into forest removes the habitat for the grassland animals as well. In all cases, paper requires trees, paper produced from planted forests means land being used inappropriately rather than being allowed to grow entirely naturally. A better perspective might be that: "There are complex issues to do with mathematics between the people who believe recycling is unwise due to the energy cost and carbon produced, and the people who would prefer more recycling than destruction of forests and grasslands and natural habitats for created single-species forests with potentially limited and far simpler ecosystems." Does anyone with a sharp pencil and a calculator, a few factual tables, math skills and a bit of time care to insert some facts on the view of paper demand leading to deforestation and replanting being better than recycling and leaving original forests alone, or leaving regrowth to naturally recover rather than constant harvesting? Anon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.96.42.203 (talk) 04:03, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

broken refs, please fix
can someone with the account that allows updating the primary article fix this:

ref 20, broken link. was pointing to http://www.loc.gov/preservation/deterioratebrochure.html correct url is (accessed 20130708) http://www.loc.gov/preservation/resources/care/deterioratebrochure.html

ref 10, soon to be broken link. was pointing to http://www.paperonweb.com/grade11.htm new url is (accessed 20130708) http://www.paperonweb.com/grade.htm

ref 11, site has some IP blocks due to abuse, might not work for some people. after emailing site maintainer changes to blocks was made, a and works from exetel in australia. (accessed 20130708) http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JuliaSherlis.shtml

thanks Xenek Xenek (talk) 02:49, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 August 2013
First paper (Papyrus) was manufactured in Egypt and Southern Sudan as far back as the fourth millennium BCE. The earliest archaeological evidence of papyrus was excavated in 2012-2013 at Wadi al-Jarf, an ancient Egyptian harbor located on the Red Sea coast. These documents date from ca. 2560-2550 BCE (end of the reign of Khufu). This was over 4000 years before it was developed in China during the early 2nd century AD, possibly as early as the year 105 A.D., by the Han court eunuch Cai Lun.

174.93.45.57 (talk) 23:18, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * You need to provide reliable sources that back up these claims. -- Neil N   talk to me  00:11, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Paper as food ingredient
This is mentioned in the lead, but there is nothing about it in the article. I would like to see more about that. and it really needs to be there if we're going to have it in the article's lead. --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 16:48, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * All i can think of for using paper as a food is rice paper, which is used to make rolls and stuff. But im not sure where the author was going with the comment.Millertime246 (talk) 21:12, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I read an interesting article on cracked that talks about how food companies use 'cellulose wood pulp' in a lot of foods. Paper is made of the same stuff. Maybe that can be connected. Or not. Either way, the article is funny and informative. cracked article DaffyBridge (talk) 21:34, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I also wanted to see what that was. The phrasing is also too vague. I think that bit about edibility is either waffle that shouldn't be in, or at least needs a citation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.28.211.38 (talk) 22:15, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 January 2015
"Grades and uses of paper". Retrieved 12 October 2007. "Grades and uses of paper" is hyperlinked to www.paperonweb.com/grade11.htm. This page is redirected to www.paperonweb.com/grade.htm

Please update the link

Harigoyal (talk) 02:28, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  05:38, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

hfwlSLKZ., — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.204.193.42 (talk) 09:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Tooth
Something should be said about a paper's "tooth", but I can't find a good source to use to describe it. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:36, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Ambiguity in "Future of paper"
I suggest a slight change to the wording in "Future of paper". (I'd do it myself, but the page is protected). It currently reads:


 * Some manufacturers have started using a new, significantly more environmentally friendly alternative to expanded plastic packaging made out of paper, known commercially as paperfoam. The packaging has very similar mechanical properties to some expanded plastic packaging, but is biodegradable and can also be recycled with ordinary paper.

I'd propose it changes to something like:


 * Some manufacturers have started using a new, significantly more environmentally friendly alternative to expanded plastic packaging. Made out of paper, and known commercially as paperfoam, the new packaging has very similar mechanical properties to some expanded plastic packaging, but is biodegradable and can also be recycled with ordinary paper.

It's fixing the potential ambiguity in the phrase "...a new...alternative to expanded plastic packaging made out of paper..." On first reading that I was confused, thinking "What exactly is an 'expanded plastic packaging made out of paper'??" A few re-reads made it clear that the word "alternative" was meant to refer only to "expanded plastic packaging" and not to "expanded plastic packaging made out of paper", but the phrasing can catch out the unwary. (This is a lot of words for a simple change; as I said, I'd have done this were the page not so heavily protected.) Sleety Dribble (talk) 01:45, 26 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I made the change. Before your explanation, I thought the objection was to "paper, known commercially as paperfoam". That really was some messed up text. Willondon (talk) 06:48, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Edit request on 28 January 2015
Please correct the caption of the picture with the kitchen roll. It should read "Different types of paper" instead of "Different typologies of paper". "Typology" is not a fancy word for "type". It means something entirely different. See, e.g., http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/typology

I second and reactivate this request. At most, a typology could be regarded as a set of types, although more commonly it is the study of types. But typology it is not itself a type. See, for example, Alberto Marradi, "Classification, Typology, Taxonomy" in Quality and Quantity: The International Journal of Methodology, XXIV, 2 (May 1990): 129-157 Sleety Dribble (talk) 02:09, 26 July 2015 (UTC)


 * You've reverted this request to "answered=yes" while leaving the text in question unchanged, but I don't understand your edit comment: "Marked as done - by another". Can you explain? Thx. Sleety Dribble (talk) 17:46, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
 * My bad - I noted the request below had been dealt with and did a search for "typologies" which did not show any results, so I must have mis-spelled "typologies" - Corrected now - Arjayay (talk) 17:55, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 September 2015
In Papermaking, under Mechanical Pulping, in the third sentence "In the groundwood process, debarked logs are fed into grinders where they are pressed against rotating stones tob e made into fibres." Note that their is a typo at the end of the sentence. It should say "to be" not "tob e"

yeaggermiester (talk) 16:14, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done and thanks for catching that Cannolis (talk) 16:53, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Under "Producing Paper" someone might correct the word "wheres." I suspect they meant "whereas."

172.79.211.18 (talk) 21:36, 3 September 2015 (UTC)Bill Leslie, Sandy, Oregon.
 * Yes check.svg Done Cannolis (talk) 09:03, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 December 2015
Please insert the following text in the summary section:

P.G. Gosavi (a retired paper technologist from the Handmade Paper Institute, Pune) has proposed a new definition for paper New_Definition_of_Paper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prabhakargosavi (talk • contribs)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The article that is linked to is only a day old, gives no sources yet, and is proposed for speedy deletion. This edit could also require some support for its notability. Willondon (talk) 15:11, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Introduction to Europe
Is it certain the introduction was in Spain?Whitewhine (talk) 11:51, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 May 2016
This is my first time editing on Wikipedia. I used MS Word to draft these suggested edits. Then I did a copy-and-paste. My Word document had suggested deletions in 'lined-through', suggested edits in green; my reasoning was presented in [highlighted green surrounded by square-brackets]. Unfortunately, those word-processing niceties, which would have made this edit a breeze to understand, were stripped between the copy and the paste.

Since I am experienced with Wiki editing (hundreds of hours using a subset of Wiki mark-up), I would prefer that someone allow me to edit the page (or a facsimile of the page), then review it for inclusion or discard. I labored 4.5 hours on crafting the words -- that's my style when writing for publication -- but now, as I read what's below, I find a jumbled mess. I tried doing "remove this" and "use this", but... Sorry. I offer it "as is", and without the citations.

remove this [Applications] Use this: [Use in Many/Most Human Endeavors] remove this [Paper can be produced with a wide variety of properties, depending on its intended use.] Use this: Paper is used in many different ways. •	For representing value: paper money, bank note, cheque, security (see security paper), voucher and ticket •	For storing and sharing information: book, notebook, magazine, zine, newspaper, art, zine, newsletter, letter [magazine is immediately followed by zine so that reader is aware that these are two distinct examples] [As a portrait artist, I'm offput by categorizing 'art' as simply storage of information; it should have its own bullet!] •	For art: painting (as a surface upon which paint is deposited), sketching, collage, sculpture, cartoon, photography, papier-mâché, origami, paper planes, quilling, color display (paint chips and color wheels), •	For personal use: diary, note to remind oneself or to someone else etc.; for temporary personal use: scratch paper, blotting paper •	For communication: between individuals and/or groups of people. •	For communication between individuals and/or groups of people: signs, billboards, posters, maps •	For packaging: corrugated box, paper bag, envelope, Packing & Wrapping Paper, Paper string, Charta emporetica and wallpaper, excelsior [inappropriate capitalization] •	For cleaning: toilet paper, handkerchiefs, paper towels, facial tissue and cat litter paper napkins, disposible mop-head (e.g., Swiffer) •	For pet care: cat litter [cat litter is paper??], pet-diapers, bird toys, animal training, nesting material •	For healthcare and personal care: toilet paper, facial tissue, sanitary napkins and tampons, adhesive tape and bandages, wound dressings, disposible gowns •	For construction the built environment: emery paper, sandpaperpaper honeycomb, used as a core material in composite materials, paper engineering, construction paper and paper clothing [construction paper' has nothing to do with construction!], blueprints, electrical insulation paper (see also dielectric and permittivity), maquettes, Tyvek House-Wrap •	For clothing: hats, diapers, fashion design, disposible underwear, "runway tape", buttons, jewelry, wigs •	For science and industry: litmus paper, universal indicator paper, paper chromatography, filter paper •	For sports and recreation: playing cards, scorekeeping, board games •	For other uses: emery paper, sandpaper, blotting paper, litmus paper, universal indicator paper, paper chromatography, electrical insulation paper (see also dielectric and permittivity) and filter paper

Paper is described in terms of its characteristics, including thickness, weight, porosity, color, texture, durability, acid-content, method of production, coating, source of its raw material, etc. The intended use of the paper determines the characteristics it must have and how it is to be manufactured. An instance of this contrast is charta emporetica (which is manufactured to be porous) and Tyvek (which is manufactured to be waterproof) [needs citation]. Another example: paper towels (which are easily compacted) and playing cards (which bend, but resist folding).

[I'd like to see the above bullets reworked as separate subheadings to "Categories of Use". If so, the following line would belong in the "For Storing and Sharing Information" subsection.] It is estimated that paper-based storage solutions captured 0.33% of the total in 1986 and only 0.007% in 2007.... Julistra (talk) 00:31, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

add more info into the process of paper making

Clayman333 (talk) 16:20, 18 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: As stated, and linked to, in the article we already have a separate article on Papermaking - Arjayay (talk) 16:33, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

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china was first
"Papyrus and parchment" should be replaced in history part. Chinese were first who invented paper. First of all this part doesnt have reliable source, besides the dates which is mentioned for that is 5th century AD which is 1500 years after chinese. check britannica, encarta or any other reliable source, Chinese were first who invented paper, and putting papyrus at the top of history part is meaningless. --Wayiran (talk) 20:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Provide a reliably sourced definition of paper that includes chinese paper and excludes the others. As i posted above, Chinese/Egyptian/Mayan etc 'paper' all used rags, leather & non-wood (plant cellulose) materials. Modern paper uses wood. Either all or none of the Egyptian/Mayan/Chinese/etc materials are paper. One thing is for sure - the benchmark is modern wood based paper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Utopial (talk • contribs) 10:34, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

It is disappointing that the Ancient Egyptians' papyrus paper has been deleted from the article. The Egyptians were using paper more than 2,000 years before China improved the technology. To maintain that paper is a Chinese invention is to attempt to rewrite history. Of course if the Chinese really did invent paper then we at least have to credit the Egyptians with developing time travel, which would let them get the technology from the future. :) Miriam e (talk) 15:34, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article on papyrus gives a couple of sources to early use of papyrus. "Papyrus was first manufactured in Egypt as far back as the third millennium BC." reference: H. Idris Bell and T.C. Skeat, 1935. "Papyrus and its uses" (British Museum pamphlet). Miriam e (talk) 15:55, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Then please remove Gutenberg "inventing" the printing press. You are just a bunch of sinophobes trying to discredit everything the Chinese has contributed. --178.7.41.47 (talk) 20:22, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Merging "Future" section with "Environmental Impact"?
Since a majority of the future section is dedicated to advances that reduce environmental impact, might it may be more concise to merge the two sections into one? Jfreedland (talk) 09:16, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 November 2018
Hi please let me edit PumpedMarco (talk) 15:09, 7 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Your request is blank or it only consists of a vague request for editing permission. It is not possible for individual users to be granted permission to edit a semi-protected page; however, you can do one of the following:
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 * You can provide a specific request to edit the page in "change X to Y" format on this talk page and an editor who is not blocked from editing will determine if the requested edit is appropriate. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 15:17, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Cotton vs. Wood
The article currently states
 * "cotton based tissue papers are ... far more environmentally friendly than wood papers, as they are made from renewable materials."

This seems wrong to me. Cotton and wood are both renewable materials, right?


 * Technically yes, but in practice it's probably much more difficult to replenish forests at the same rate as you consume them than it is to replenish cotton fields - in logging the entire tree is destroyed and must start again from scratch, and it takes years to regrow a tree to the same size as the ones that are felled; I think cotton can be harvested without destroying the plant at all (I could be wrong - the wikipedia page on cotton doesn't mention it), but even so, it'll probably grow back much faster than a tree will.
 * Just because an entire tree must be harvested does not mean that it is not environmentally friendly, and I don't think a regrowth rate is a strong enough argument to justify calling foresting environmentally unfriendly. At least, "far more" is too strong, and at most, the whole statement should be stripped of its POV. Akrabbim 22:29, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * In cutting down the entire tree you also have an entire tree to make paper out of. A tree can weigh hundereds of tonnes and most of that can be turned into paper. With cotton the time from seed to harvest is far lower but the yield is also far lower. The growth rate should therefore be meassured in kg of finished paper per ha of land used and year. Cotton also has other disadvantages when compared with trees; it has to be grown in tropical areas where the land could have otherwise been used for growing foods and is thus in higher demand. Trees can be grown in far more varied climates, further north than the polar circle. Colder areas are generally less inhabited and less utilised, they also contain far less species diversity that may be threatened by agriculture. Forests, even artificial ones, may house wildlife that cotton plantations cannot. Trees are more robust and require less maintenance than cotton, which may have to be treated with pesticides and herbicides which can dammage the surrounding environment.--88.131.71.181 (talk) 10:53, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Cotton based tissue papers are thin and will break apat with use! Cotton made paper - if hand made will last for over 400 years, and is very strong. however, it depends on the source of the cotton, a very water dependant crop. most of Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan have now created an environmental disaster when they diverted so much water from the Ural Sea to grow cotton that the sea has almost disapeared.

Woodpulp on the other hand, form northern forests is very very environmentally managed, and a sheet of good virgin paper, will last about 250 years. The real problem is recycled paper, which will last 30 years and creates far more polution to clean than the raw material took to create in the first place - Dave Calladine

Semi-protected edit request on 13 April 2020
China]] at" Davilychwh (talk) 16:01, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.  JTP (talk • contribs) 20:22, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 April 2020
China]] at\' to \'probably China\' Davilychwh (talk) 16:02, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done - QuadColour (talk) 22:59, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Fish Paper: Has No Relevance to Fish
Now, when you go to "Article" then go down to 'some types of paper' there is fish paper, I have read the article (that is a stub) and saw no relevance to fish. Why is named that way? (I've done some research and only to across the same article) TheRedOwl76 (talk) 00:26, 31 January 2013 (UTC) Bold text
 * Keep looking into the history of insulating material, I recall seeing something about it published in 19th century. Replacement for actual pressed fish scales? 71.230.16.111 (talk) 22:57, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

New Info Added about China
I just added a bunch of new information on China. God, I can't believe toilet paper was used in China since the 6th century, and not only that, it had quotations from the Five Classics printed on some of them (which was seen by scholar officials to be a disrespectul thing)! Anyways, enjoy the new info!--PericlesofAthens 13:05, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I was suprise by that too. Very weird. What did people use befor toilet paper?

Bill-

Tuesday, March 11, 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.201.225 (talk) 00:59, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing unpleasant things; maybe tree leaves, cloths, silks (expensive!), etc. Most people I'm sure simply used rushing water and nothing else. Gross!-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 13:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * In the woods with no extra water, use large leaf. At home/farm, your fingers. Then you wash them with water. Short of water in desert? See Muslim sanitation rules (use only left hand for asshole). In 18th century (and until recently in India) you would have a cloth that was immediately washed out in a bowl of water. Even in early 19th century, there weren't enough used newspapers for everyone.71.230.16.111 (talk) 23:38, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 Aug 2020
In section "Applications", under "For cleaning", remove "Handkerchiefs". Linked article does not support such a use. "Paper handkerchiefs" are in fact the listed "facial tissue".71.230.16.111 (talk) 00:19, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 13:32, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:14, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Money poster.JPG

Entrepreneurship
Reasons why some people use materials made out of paper — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.239.4.5 (talk) 21:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 April 2022
Paper made from chemical pulps are also known as wood-free papers (not to be confused with tree-free paper); this is because they are not made by mechanically disintegrating pulp from the chips, The lignin content is less in chemical pulp which deteriorates over time. Tripathi.Products (talk) 17:42, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:48, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 May 2022
To see a non-chronological report about paper click this link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vSoIu7bEFBzcfiipKLI7UMTQJ6mBP6RMyPucDD0azDAgff6pQh6Z3l2_eSVdZkakqLEtWKE2pD0IxBF/pub Doodlesday (talk) 17:38, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:52, 29 May 2022 (UTC)