Talk:Papillon dog/Archive 1

Discussion
This is the start of the Papillon Wiki page.

If you know more information about the Papillon, breeding, showing, care you can add it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.157.141.12 (talk • contribs) 16:58, 26 July 2003

Sorry guys--and apologies to new user MrFalcon. I'm having serious editing problems--my previous comments here obviously didn't load. On my history page it looked as though the change was captions to existing photos; I certainly didn't mean to deleted newly-uploaded photographs. My pages are refusing to load fully, my edits may or may not go through and my browser freezes. Is it Wikipedia or me? Quill 23:08, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * It's you! No, wait--it's me!  No, wait-- Hmmm, OK, I guess it could be Wikipedia. Things have been questionable the last week or 2. Sometimes there's actually some useful (or at least interesting) info on the OpenFacts status site. Elf | Talk 02:49, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

seven Layers of Classification
Can anyone help with finding the seven Layers of Classification of the Papillon? -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.95.161.141 (talk • contribs)


 * Erm, as far as I know, all dogs are classified as one species, although there are over all that in one go! Geohevy 01:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

evona rocks!
great info! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evonaiscute (talk • contribs) 20:42, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Not Fact--doesn't belong here.
The article about Papillons contains the following quote: "Many dogs from breeders and petstores do not look like the breed standard. They may have no ear fringe, short tails, off markings, and teeth issues. Papillons, as well as any other breed, should be attained through a reputable breeder with both parents as champions to be assured a standard papillon."

This is pure opinion, not fact. In essence it is the standard 'party line' of the American Kennel Club, meant to keep the population of the breed exclusive, controlled by very few breeders who are beholden to the AKC (party members), and very expensive. It does not belong in an encyclopedic article. Both parents as champions???? Who are you kidding? Emmetlang (talk) 02:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I definitely removed that, because I have a "mismarked" papillon, from a petstore. The breeder may not be "reputable" in that every dog is properly marked and all that jazz, but the pet store had pictures of the parents, and descriptions of them. It's just a pet.. not every dog has to be a show dog. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.65.184 (talk) 20:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the statement represents the AKC party line... The text might have been re-phrased to represent the Fairly Factual.
 * Fairly Factual.. Pet Store dogs are usually bought through puppy brokers and are more often to have issues R/T poor breeding.
 * Fairly Factual: ..being an AKC champion does not ensure that the dog is able to do it's job..
 * Fairly Factual: there are no 'Just a Pet' vs 'Showdog' Papillions. The animal is a companion breed.. being a pet is it's job...
 * Fairly Factual: If a Papillion dog can not function as a pet... it should be put down and it's breeding line should be considered for termination. That's a standard practice for reputable dog breeders.
 * Very Factual: Standards are about much more than the way a dogs looks. Reputable breeders can do little to affect the behavior of breeders who merely rely on their Reputations NCGingerHounds (talk) 22:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Removal of two "pop-culture" references

 * Forthcoming album by alternative rockband "Inme" features a bonus track called "papillons stalemate".
 * The Twilight Singers had a song called "Papillon" on their album Blackberry Belle

I have taken out these references as they have no connection with the Papillon breed whatsoever - lyrics in both songs refer to butterflies. Ah, the youth of today...

--Timetrial (talk) 00:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Ditto for the song by The Editors. That's a reference to Papillon (book) Rojomoke (talk) 13:48, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality
Some sections of this article need to be rewritten, the way it is now, it sounds more like an advertisement. --D.c.camero (talk) 05:54, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

go for it! :-D NCGingerHounds (talk) 22:27, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I tried to improve the blatantly un-encyclopedic tone and noted some of the more dubious claims that need support. Kuak (talk) 20:46, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

recent changes
Looking at this diff suggests that some anon inserted poor content ("Papillons are beautiful and adorable"). Can someone revert it? 71.240.173.231 (talk) 05:14, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Made a number of edits and additions to the 'appearance' section of this article, most noteably the columned area. I also combined duplicated information in the aforementioned section and added 'happy' to the Temperament section, as it is a hallmark of the breed. Isablidine (talk) 02:02, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Clean up
I've tagged a couple of the sections as they are (1) unsourced and (2) written in an inappropriately chatty style: I've also deleted three paragraphs under "Temperament": the first two constituted a "how to train your puppy" guide, while the third was just a doting drool about how intelligent this breed is. The remaining content is still more of an essay than an encyclopedia article, and desperately needs some sources ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 08:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Two months on and nobody's sought to rectify any of the tagged sections, so I've removed them. Wikipedia is not the place for trivia, speculation or simpering fancruft ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 15:10, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

chewing
I left Diva alone for a couple of hours, when I returned home, I noticed the black fur at the end of one ear, was gone, like someone took scissors and cut it off. The other ear is fine. Is this a trait of papillons, to chew this much, and she loves to chew on anything she can find, I give her chewies, toys, etc. and she still chews. she is nearly 9 months old and hopefully I thought she would be getting over this. Help!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.44.26 (talk) 20:38, 1 October 2011 (UTC) That is how my papillon is. He will even chew my fingers if he has a chsnce to! LOL! He is a very social dog. He is sweet and playful and will show affection to anyone, but he just chews EVERYTHING! I think you might need to show your papillon some discipline. Maybe lock him/her in a cage for a while, or give him a light smack! He/she might need some more discipline if it chews on what its not supposed to. Happy to help! DEIDRA C. (talk) 17:40, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

My editing and your opinion
I am going to edit Papillon(dog). I am going to tell it's REAL health issues. I do have a Papillon and I know about it's behavior issues. Their behavior is mostly different from most, or other dogs. Why I am explaining this to you guys, is because after I edit it, I would appreciate if you went to my talk page- DEIDRA C. (talk) 17:55, 9 September 2012 (UTC). But ONLY if you like my section. If you enjoy my section, please go to my talk page and send a comment or WikiLove about my section. Thank you, guys! Have a radical evening! Ps- I will tell you when my section is complete! Thanks everyone! DEIDRA C. (talk) 17:55, 9 September 2012 (UTC) My edit is completed! I made the section "HEALTH". It's in small letters under the section that has the life span! DEIDRA C. (talk) 18:17, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
 * This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
 * There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
 * It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
 * In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 23:39, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dogs which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:45, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Papillon
Good day

We have a 11-year old male Papillon named Jamie. He had been diagnosed with an allergy for protein when he was about 1 year old and is since then been put on Hills z/d. He did very well on it although he had to get treatment from time to time for skin irritation and a running stomach.

He was a very good puppy and we never had to prevent him from chewing on objects like most puppies do.

The last few weeks he started chewing on things like rugs, carton boxes, etc. What could be the reason for this? Thanks a lot Ria Muller — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.4.227.134 (talk) 17:23, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 3 one external links on Papillon (dog). Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080314004548/http://www.fci.be:80/nomenclatures_detail.asp?lang=en&file=group9 to http://www.fci.be/nomenclatures_detail.asp?lang=en&file=group9
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120615092743/http://www.papillonclub.org:80/PapillonHealth/ARTICLES/080-Health-Concerns-of-the-Papillon.html to http://www.papillonclub.org/PapillonHealth/ARTICLES/080-Health-Concerns-of-the-Papillon.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080706120413/http://papillonclub.org/paphistory1957B.html to http://www.papillonclub.org/paphistory1957B.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 22:00, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Campine (chicken) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 01:16, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 13 January 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. See the arguments of opposers as much stronger than those of supporters, especially the citing of previous relevant discussions and the resulting community consensuses. Happy Hearts Day! (closed by page mover)  Paine Ellsworth   put'r there 06:14, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Papillon dog → Papillon (dog breed) – This was moved back in September as part of a bulk RM of 27 different article titles on grounds of WP:NATURAL. However, when you propose 27 unrelated moves all at once, you don't really address whether on not the proposed titles actually fulfill NATURAL. NATURAL explicitly states it does not apply to "obscure or made-up names". "Papillon dog" is such an obscure name, Google Books Ngrams won't even graph it. Maybe bulk RMs of unrelated articles that don't discuss the relevance of the cited policy to each of the 27 different new titles being lumped together aren't such a good idea, perhaps? Egsan Bacon (talk) 02:00, 13 January 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. ToThAc (talk) 18:25, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Support, per nom, 'natural'. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:33, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
 * and support (dog). Randy Kryn (talk) 11:36, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Neutral / if move,Support move to "Papillon (dog)" per nom and "natural". FYI, all other dog breed pages with similar parenthetical disambiguators use "(dog)" instead of "(dog breed)". No reason to add "breed" to solely this one (unless you'd also want to have a discussion about using "(dog breed)" on all those). "Papillon (dog)" works best. Paintspot Infez (talk) 00:32, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Support move to "Papillon (dog)" - to be WP:CONSISTENT with other dog articles. -- Netoholic @ 05:47, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Additional comment. I would also support a change back to Papillon (dog). Egsan Bacon (talk) 06:51, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose – The current title is "natural" enough to show up in lots of books, even titles: . The fact that it's not common enough to appear in n-grams is of no import here. Dicklyon (talk) 22:00, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose per what WP:NATURAL actually says and means and per WP:CONSISTENCY and per WP:CONCISE. That's three policies versus a bunch of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. This RM against  of entirely consistent precedent to move all of the breed articles to natural disambiguation and away from parenthetic; see mostly complete log at WP:BREEDDAB.  There's nothing unnatural or obscure about this.  I'll just quote Montanabw who summed up the issue pretty well in January 2015, on distinguishing between Mustang horses and other things named "Mustang": 'We have a[n article about the] Shetland pony, which within the pony world is commonly called a "Shetland", likewise, within the horse world, we have "Mustangs" "Arabians" "Hanoverians" and so on. Outside of the horse world, any rational person will clarify an "Arabian horse" or a "Hanoverian horse" so as to be clear where we are talking about a horse or not.' . There's absolutely nothing new or different about this case.   dog people writing about dogs for other dog people just say "Papillon"; the context is already 100% clear. Cat people say to other cat people "I favor Asians and Siberians" without spelling out "Asian cats and Siberian cats", and sheep people can say "I need to go shave my Algerian Arab" without other sheep people having a funny or confused reaction.  Yet we are not using unnatural, parenthetic disambiguation with Asian cat, Siberian cat, or Algerian Arab sheep. If this were moved to parenthetic disambiguation, it  need to be "(dog breed)", as "Papillon (dog)" very strongly implies an individual dog named Papillon, and we have individual-dog articles named in this way (see Category:Individual dogs). The dog articles are the very last of the breed articles in need of such cleanup. Every other dog breed article that must be disambiguated is at natural disambiguation with only the rarest exceptions, with "Name (species)" reserved for individual notable animals, and "Name (species breed)" format being used for the tiny handful of parenthetic ones (mostly special cases where a breed and a hybrid or a breed and landrace share exactly the same name, and thus "breed" must be used to disambiguate for WP:PRECISE reasons – which do not apply in this case).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:46, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Consider Havanese as a counterexample to your argument. ToThAc (talk) 18:25, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It isn't, since it has neither form of disambiguation and thus isn't even relevant. However, it actually be disambiguated; it's another article that needs to move because it's confusable with a human population with the same name (people from Havana), per the RMs that resulted in the current names of what are now Nicastrese goat, Argentine Criollo cattle, Algerian Arab sheep, Anglo-Nubian goat, West African Dwarf goat, Indo-Brazilian cattle, British White cattle, Welsh Black cattle, Florida White rabbit, Anatolian Black cattle, Uzbek black goat, and Friesian cattle (now at Holstein Friesian cattle which may be a misnomer – they're called Holsteins in the US and Friesians in the UK).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:08, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Prior recent discussions, both against this move: This was very recently already subject to both an RM and an RfC; see Talk:Campine chicken (the consensus that put this article at Papillon dog) and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dogs (rejecting the idea of parenthetically disambiguating dog breed names). This is rehash, a.k.a. WP:FORUMSHOPPING.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:16, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose (dog) especially, since it is used for individual dogs. But per SMcCandlish, Papillion dog is natural vs parenthetical of (dog breed) Galobtter (pingó mió) 06:41, 31 January 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.