Talk:Parable of the Sunfish/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Crisco 1492 (talk · contribs) 07:48, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! Garamond Lethe 08:27, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll take this! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:48, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Just touching this so it doesn't get archived. Crisco 1492 and I are currently working on the Theory of Literature GA and this will be on hold until that gets done. Garamond Lethe 05:34, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Finally this is back at the top of my stack. Working.... Garamond Lethe 09:12, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Slow but steady progress today. Added a significant amount of (commented out) quoted material that I think will help address some of your concerns. Garamond Lethe 05:54, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I looked at that. Looks nice, but it will need to be paraphrased before going "live". I won't run the spotcheck until you're done adding content to the page. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:52, 11 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Could you take a look now? I think everything except the "interpretation" section is ready to go.  Garamond Lethe  20:18, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * K, hope to give this a go tonight. I probably won't be able to check any of the offline sources though. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:38, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Only at your convenience, of course. The criticism section is ready now as well.  Garamond Lethe  08:52, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

 * 1
 * Lede looks like a retelling of the parable, but does not mention its sources nor its analysis. Per WP:LEDE, it should serve as a summary of the article.
 * Summary pulled out to its own section and lead shortened considerably. Garamond Lethe  10:43, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Another couple sentences would be good. Currently looks a little short. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:13, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Title of the article should be in title case if it is indeed a proper title (i.e. not Parable of the sunfish, but Parable of the Sunfish)
 * Done. Will be interested to see if the move broke anything.Garamond Lethe  10:43, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't have broken anything (moving creates a redirect) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:13, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, when this subpage didn't move, it showed up as a problem in the daily GAN report. I've just moved this page and edited the lowercase "sunfish" in the transclusion header. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:39, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks BlueMoonset! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:56, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The parable - Strongly suggest you paraphrase or at least summarize it outside of the lede. If ABC of Reading was not renewed, it may be PD, but until then an approximation is better than nothing.
 * Kept same paraphase as was in the lead but moved to a new section and added context. <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  10:43, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Awesome. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:13, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Hit UC Berkeley library tonight for a couple more references to address the last few writing issues. Look for edits tomorrow. <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe 07:47, 10 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Who's Robert Scholes?
 * Fixed & wikified.<span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe 10:43, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ Good. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:13, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * both students are initially forbidden from consulting outside sources, both provide only oral reports and both provide a wealth of descriptive detail. - Do you need to repeat "both" 3 times?
 * Fixed.<span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe 10:54, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ Good. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:13, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Why the shift from present tense to past tense? (Shaler) Also, a little heavy on the direct quotes.
 * Fixed. <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  11:18, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ Good. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:13, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * "Look at your fish!" - What's with the italics and quotes? If it is a journal article, it shouldn't be italicised. If it is a book, it shouldn't have quotes. See WP:ITALICS.
 * Fixed. <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  11:20, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ Good. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:13, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * That parenthetical might do better as a footnote. efn
 * Fixed. <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  11:42, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ Good. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:13, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * it is specimens - Emphasis in the original?
 * Yes, and now noted as such. <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  11:51, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ Good. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:13, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * as the authoritarian legitimizer of knowledge, rather than the ostensibly empirical validatation gained through observation or language. - This is feeling a little unclear to me.


 * In progress... <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe 07:31, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Celeste Goodridge concludes that as the fish cannot be known until it decomposes into its component elements, so too is knowledge "broken, fragmented, and momentary" - Did anyone compare this aspect with literature? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:37, 3 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Fixed. <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe 07:31, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * 2
 * All books should have ISBN numbers (13-digit preferred) and the use of hyphens (you have them or you don't) should be standardised. This is really helpful. Works which don't have ISBNs can be given the OCLC, easily accessible on WorldCat.


 * Fixed.  <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  14:13, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Make sure to use ndashes for page ranges.


 * Fixed. <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  14:13, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * You may find the convert templates easier to use, to standardise your references.


 * Not sure what "convert templates" are, but all cites save the syllabus are now using templates consistently. <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  14:13, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * As I see it, the James source is missing the closing quotation mark


 * James cite rewritten from scratch. <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  14:13, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * and the order of dates and whatnot is inconsistent. I see some with pg. and some with p., so on and so forth.


 * It was a dog's breakfast. Every one of the cites has been attended to, author-link and access-date tags added, etc.  Quite likely that I've overlooked something.  Please take a hard look.  <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  14:13, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Whorley is lacking some bibliographic data as well. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:15, 3 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Added a bit more; let me know if that's not sufficient. <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  14:13, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Last I checked, consensus was that Gbooks cites don't need access dates. Those can be safely removed. Otherwise references look okay (I've fixed a couple small things) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:02, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * These have been removed. <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  20:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC)


 * 3
 * The parable itself is missing, which is something I can't pass this without. Just a summary will do. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:39, 3 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Fixed as above.
 * ✅ Good. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:14, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * 6
 * I think the images are a bit too small in the article, especially for people with fairly large screens.


 * What do you suggest? I don't have a sense as to what is acceptable.  <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  14:16, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I tried playing with the sizes, tell me what you think. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:55, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks good! <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  20:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC)


 * In File:Preserved dogfish specimen, Paxton Gate, San Francisco, August 4th 2012.jpg, what does Photo permission courtesy of the good folks at Paxton Gate, San Francisco? Does this mean it was donated by people from Paxton Gate, or that they gave you permission to take the image? Also, cropping may be useful.


 * Now using cropped image. <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  20:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC)


 * "Courtesy of" here means they allowed me to take a picture of their merchandise. I've updated the photo summary to make that more clear.  <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  11:51, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ Good. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:14, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * File:Louis Agassiz.jpg - When did Sonrel die? (He has an article, it's there). Also, this needs proof that it is PD in the US. For that I suggest just using PD-100 as Sonrel died more than 100 years ago. PD-70 is not enough for the US, as the US has a longer term.
 * File:Nathaniel Southgate Shaler.jpg source should indicate the actual title of the work (especially as it does not seem to be accessible via Google books for everyone)
 * File:SamuelScudder BSNH 1930.png - This looks to be PD (No known copyright restrictions as determined by scanning institution). Should be tagged as such. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:02, 3 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Where do these tags go? <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  14:16, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I added them last month, they should all be okay now. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:55, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * A few minor points about the impact of images on the layout. It is a pity that the images of Shaler and Scudder both look away from the text, rather than at the text. I tried moving them to the left-hand side, but lost the effect of the quotes being indented.  Given that this is not a good solution, do you have any illustrations where these two gentlemen faced the left rather than the right?  I also noted the appearance of white space caused by Sudder's image when the screen width was set to maximum (I have a 1920 px wide screen).  This can be solved if the image of Shaler is moved to just after the heading "Sources”. Martinvl (talk) 16:13, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Martinvl, this review closed four months ago, and the article was listed as a Good Article at the time. If this is in response to the peer review request or some other reason, putting it in a new section on the article's talk page rather than in the GA Review section is in order. Thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 00:06, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Further discussion

 * Alright, on hold to address the issues I've pointed out. I'll do a spotcheck once the article is a bit more settled. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:42, 3 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The above all looks doable, but let me raise a couple of concerns here. First, I'm surprised the images are an issue.  I found them on commons and thought that meant that they had been blessed.  I'll plan on replacing all of them.


 * Second, and much more important is the text of the parable itself. The article originally included the full text of the parable.  It's 16 lines out of a 210 pages book and less than 170 words.  I felt this placed it well within the "fair use" copyright exception and that appears to be the consensus view in academic publishing as well:  out of the 11 works that I could locate that reproduced the parable in full, only 2 acknowledged requesting permission from the publisher to do so.  However, the editor doing the DYK review thought it was a copyright issue and so I took it out in order to complete that process.


 * I have sent a request in to the New Directions permissions desk asking for clarification but I expect they're much more concerned about cleaning up after the hurricane.


 * The text is in the page history and on my user page as well. I would prefer to include it and, aside from the review at DYK, I don't see any reason not to.  What would you recommend?  If you would prefer to summarize, do you have any suggestions as to how to go about doing so that doesn't duplicate what's already in the lead?


 * Thanks,


 * <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe 07:51, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
 * You'd be surprised at the issues that slip past Commons admins (and Wikipedia users, to be fair). I saw that. Until the copyright aspects of the parable are worked out I'd suggest giving a summary for now, and if they give permission you can switch it. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, the images don't have to be removed (they are all free). It's just a matter of tagging them properly. Think of it as cataloguing. I'll show you if you want. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:13, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Now that Theory of Literature has been put to bed I should have some time to spend on this one. <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe 22:07, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright, looking forward to it. A summary of the parable should hopefully be step number one. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:32, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Alright, this is almost there. I want to do a spotcheck later, although probably not as thorough as the one on Theory of Literature — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:02, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Source spotcheck:
 * Where has Cabinet been describe as "popular science"?


 * This is a tough one. "Cabinet" is certainly not popular science (and is arguably not "popular"); that attribution was intended for the article.  However, I'm not going to be able to come up with a cite that says the article is "popular science" either (as it's an essay/rumination on Agassiz more than anything else).  Since I use this cite elsewhere (it's where I first ran across the parable) I think it's best to drop it here.  Fixed.  <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  10:51, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm getting an error on Shaler's biography at Google


 * Fixed. (Last character of the URL fell off...)  <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  10:51, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Other than that the sources I've checked are fine. You are a bit heavy on the quotes, which may be an issue if you go to FAC.


 * Blockquotes or inline quotes as well? <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  10:51, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Inline, mostly. The blockquotes seem acceptable. As a side note, I generally see issues with quotes pop up in reviews of film or TV episode articles: you'll end up with reception sections that are 80% quotes. This is not as bad, but there may be reviewers who take issue with the amount of quoted material. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:49, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Also, your lead should be expanded a bit. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:49, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * In progress.... <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe 10:51, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Ok, see what you think. If you want to hold up passing the GA until I get the quotes trimmed in the criticism section, that's fine with me.  <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Garamond <span style="padding:3px;color:gray;font:400 0.9em 'Garamond', serif">Lethe  09:52, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No, but you should consider it before going to FA with this. Passing. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:20, 14 December 2012 (UTC)