Talk:Paradise Lost (band)

Not popular in the UK?
I'd disagree with this, but my only evidence is really anecdotal based on folks I know from the UK in the metal scene. Any UK folks have some real info to back me up or shoot me down on this one? 68.233.12.105 05:36, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Only people i know into Paradise Lost are 'Goths'. Thats it, period. Leyasu 10:06, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
 * They have pretty much no mass-market popularity in the UK, whereas they do in Germany and other countries. Yes, they have support -within the metal scene- but not on the mass market. --Kiand 20:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

They packed out the tent at Download in 2005 at Donington Park. They are legendary in the British metal scene.
 * Which isn't mass market, or anything close. A #16 and #31 album is their chart record in the UK to date. Although I doubt this matters much to them, or their fans; it does show how mass market popular a band is. --Kiand 01:06, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Within their genre PL are huge in the UK and are widely reported as one of the major bands in the UK metal press. It is true to say that metal isn't huge or mainstream in the UK. A few years back I went to a Brazillian-themed office function at my law firm in a Sepultura t-shirt only to find out that people didn't have a clue who they were and thought I had just turned up in a random heavy metal top.

It's true that if you asked all of the 60m population of the UK you could conclude that PL were virtually unknown. But this would be the same for every metal band as well a majority of other bands listed on Wikipedia. It's not a particuarly constructive statement. Taking everything else written in the article as true, both of the following statements seem to be more accurate: 1. PL are big in their genre in the UK, but the genre isn't huge; or 2. (as I have suggested, and is the common theme of metal magazines in the UK when writing on the subject) PL are not as big in the UK as they are in mainland Europe. Btw they rocked supporting Type O last night. I think one or two people there knew the words to their songs...

--WeAreSilver 21:44, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Genre?
Theres four genres listed ATM - Doom Metal, Death Metal, Goth, New Romantic. The first three are accurate, the last one is, err, not.

However, the last album could even be called Nu Metal. They change so often that its hard to fence them in on one genre. Should there be a limitation on how many genres are listed? Kiand 18:43, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Their first albums are doom-death - 'lost paradise', 'gothic' and 'shades of god'.However in these albums there are many elements from their future sound.Then they became playing gothic metal -'icon', 'draconian times' (creating the genre :] ).Then "dark" synth rock. 'host' is their closest to the synth rock album. In the albums 'Symbol of life' and 'paradise lost' they fuse this synth rock sound with gothic metal and became abandoning the electronic sound.'In requiem' is pure and perfect gothic metal album. So - Doom/Death (early) Gothic Metal Synth rock (some albums) - but not all the middle stuff, because 'Icon' and 'Draconian' times are also in the middle!! Xr 1

Link
One Second is linked to Yello's album with the same name. It has to be fixed. But how?

Change of vocal styles
Why do you say that Draconian Times is when the vocals changed? They obviously changed on Shades Of God to a Hetfield style. Unless there's some mass objection I'm going to revise that.

Genre
Whilst PL's original sound was most certainly in the doom/grindcore mould, their sound has continued to evolve and defies easy categorisation, principally due the employment of a more "electro-sound" since the controvertial "One Second" album. When pressed on the matter, lead singer Nick Holmes describes it as "Dark Rock"

While not a fan (I like a couple of songs), at least one song, whether intentional or not, has been used in porn (i.e. Swallow This series - Song - Symbol of Life). I'd hardly throw that in the doom category, rather in the ironically intentional.

evolvement and career
Mention should be made of the success that PL have had. Their first single "As I Die", from their third album "Shades of God" was hughely successful in mainland Europe.

The fourth album "Icon" further defined the band, and built on the success of the "As I Die" single.

The fifth album, "Draconian Times" is seen very much as a more polished version of "Icon", but ran into some controversy when a Charles Manson quote was used on the album version of "Forever Failure" - though this quotation was not used on the single version. Alegedley, Amnesty International became involved when the promotional video of "Forever Failure" appeared to depict lead singer Nick Holmes being buried alived by his band mates.

The sixth album "One Second" saw a massive departure in sound, and the loss of a section of their fan base, as their sound started to incorporate synthesiser elements. This led to Kerrang! Magazine dubbing them "Sisters of the Depeche Lost" (a reference to the Sisters of Mercy track "Walk Away" that PL had covered, and to Depeche Mode who were generating a more guitar orientated sound at around the same time with their album "Ultra"). There was also some controversy over the song "Another Day" was revealed to be about the Dunblaine Massacre.

Excluding "Reflection" (effectively a Best-Of-To-Date released by Music for Nations), the seventh studio album was "Host" and further explored the synthesiser sounds, as well as demonstrating a sombre and slower tone as the the lead singer and song writer struggled with the birth of his first child and his fathers death.

The eighth studio album was "Believe in Nothing", and saw a return to the rockier/heavier sounds of previous albums, but did not achieve the commerical success that was expected.

The ninth studio album was "Symbol of Life", and faired better than "Believe in Nothing", due in no small part to a widely acclaimed cover of "Small Town Boy", which appeared as a bonus track on the digipak version.

The tenth studio album, "Paradise Lost", appeared to blend the heavy metal roots of the past, with more commercial friendly electro sounds. This has led to some parts of the media, noticable Metal Hammer and Kerrang! once again championing the band leading to hopes of a further revival in fortune.

doom/death metal?
«Paradise Lost are a heavy metal band formed in 1988 in Halifax, UK. Along with countrymates Anathema and My Dying Bride, they are credited for creating the subgenre known as "doom/death" metal.» I don't know Paradise Lost, but you're quite high if you say anathema is doom/death metal.portugal 03:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

they aren't now, they were. Look up their early albums. Its good music

Shades Of God has a grunting vocal style?
Has anyone actually listened to this album? He chaged the vocals to a rougher Hetfield style on Shades Of God and they became more polished after that. I don't think it's right to lump Shades Of God with Gothic and Lost Paradise.--Skeev 15:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Shades of God is death/doom.--Nick Holmes 12:16 (UTC)


 * Not really. Shades of God doesn't have the classic death metal elements (death growls, ultra-low guitar tuning, constant use of double-bass drumming, etc). And I agree with Skeev - Nick Holmes's then-new voice timbre is very similar to James Hetfield's. Musicaindustrial (talk) 19:44, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Katatonia
I put Katatonia under the associated artist. I'm certain, that if i've trusting to what Blackheim and Renkse says in the interviews, that they have influenced by PL, it's very objective to adding them to the infobox with Tiamat, MDB and LOT. Or should i adding the somewhat "influenced artists" section to page? Etos 18:27 17.September 2007

Doom?!
Hello, they are NOT doom anymore. Their first albums are death-doom but that's all. Please stop adding this. 88.87.6.72 (talk) 22:23, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * They were never doom. You just said it.  There first albums were death-doom which is not the same thing as doom.  They're style is now gothic metal.  So, I agree people should not be adding doom metal. Navnløs (talk) 18:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Unless, presumably, they find a source...? Blackmetalbaz (talk) 19:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * No. It does NOT matter anymore what sources state. Consensus is that they are NOT doom metal now.

There won't be a source, but even if one is found, it would have to be denied. It's a common fact known to fans of Paradise Lost and death/doom fans in general that doom metal is not the same as death/doom. Close, but not the same. There's no reason to list doom metal when you already have said a band is death/doom. It's a fusion genre, not too seperate genres. It's like putting "death metal" in a genre list for a band when it already say "blackened death metal." Pointless. First, the two genres are not the same, so unless the band has played exclusively death metal at one point it would be wrong to list it as such. Second, if it already says "blackened death metal" that pretty much covers the death metal part. Same issue here. We've already said the band is death/doom so theres no point in reiterating the doom part. Unless of course the band played, exclusively, doom metal at one point. Paradise Lost has never played just doom metal.  Blizzard Beast  ''$ODIN' 21:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * They were very initially a pure death metal, but later influenced by some doomy stuff like Cathedral and BS creating death/doom and then, they released Icon, album that totally changed their style and the syle was classified as gothic metal. And if you want "just" doom metal look at Candlemass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Talvimiekka (talk • contribs) 19:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Paradise Lost released their 1st demo in 1988, two full before Cathedral came to be. There's also the fact the Cathedral debut, Forest of Equilibrium, was released one year later than PL's Lost Paradise. And Paradise Lost weren't the first to mix death and doom - Australia's Dream Death were the first ones to do just that.


 * Another thing - if Paradise Lost was ever "just doom", it would have been on their Shades of God (1992) record. There's no noticeable death metal elements, but there's doom aplenty on there. Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:20, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Improving the article
I used the band's biography found in rockdetector.com as a basis for improving the first section.However I've processed and editted the information.I also expanded it much with materials from other sources. I think I've done a good work. Please, if anyone has the time and ability - help me with improving the "synth Era" and "recent times" sections. Thanks. :] Xr 1 (talk) 08:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC) Well, I did what I could for the other two sections, however they still need to be improved more.... Xr 1 (talk) 21:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how much I can do to improve this article (I admit other articles are a bit higher priority to me at the moment) but I do recognize you have done a very good job. Thanks for your work on the article =).  Blizzard Beast  ''$ODIN' 22:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh man! What happened!? This article got crappier. So many people that edit wikipedia just make it worse, mess it up more, and just like to make the conditions of articles worse by adding and changing things to their stupid, idiotic ideas (and little grammar skill). Sad.  Blizzard Beast  ''$ODIN' 16:50, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Say Hello to the new discography article I've created :]] Paradise Lost Discography. Xr 1 (talk) 10:19, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Gothic Metal?!
Oh my goth! This band is NEVER gothic metal! I don't know what you guys smoked, but Paradise Lost is neither Doom nor Goth Metal. Both, Doomheads and Goths, don't listen to this. It's categorized horribly wrong. It gets concernized as this, but it is miles away, even though some manson-worshipping mallgoths, vampire-kiddies, nu-metalers and other wannabes may be listening to this. If you want some real Goth Metal, check out Theatre of Tragedy or Darkseed. I would say Paradise Lost is some kind of modern heavy metal with a few paralells to melodic death metal, but way different. Schattenpriester (talk) 22:13, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * If that's the case, then give some reliable sources that back up your claim. The research has stated that they are such, and since you're posting something that is obviously your point of view which is not externally backed up, this post of yours is purely original research. Describing Paradise Lost as "some kind of modern heavy metal with a few paralells to melodic death metal, but way different" is a classic example of original research. Also, you are using phrases such as "I don't know what you guys smoked" and the nonsensical word "concernized", which you should probably steer away from in the future, as not to come off as juvenile. As for "some manson-worshipping mallgoths, vampire-kiddies, nu-metalers and other wannabes... listening to this", I care little about that. The music tastes of people we do not know exist is not a concern of ours. Besides, there are more important issues than assigning genres flippantly to bands or albums and the music tastes of people you don't like. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 02:05, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Came here to say something, but Backtable pretty much said what I was going to. However, I will say this as a slightly off-topic thing: "Doomheads ... don't listen to this" is objectively wrong, and whether they're listened to by a certain subset of music fans or not doesn't have any bearing on what the band actually plays. --LordNecronus (talk) 10:00, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

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Any Bradford members?
According to a 2012 article Nick Holmes lived in the town of Ilkley which is part of the City of Bradford, and Gregor Mackintosh lived in the town of Bradford which is part of the City of Bradford. What I want to know is are they, or any of the other members actually from the City of Bradford, as in born in the city? Danstarr69 (talk) 16:35, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Merge Proposal
I'm suggesting a merge of Gregor Mackintosh into this article. His bio is very short, and almost entirely focused on his work with this group. Joyous! Noise! 17:56, 9 May 2023 (UTC) ""Members of notable bands are redirected to the band's article, not given individual articles, unless they have demonstrated individual notability.""
 * Agreed - merge. There might be enough information out there for an independent article, but this isn't it. Onel 5969  TT me 09:17, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: Because of his association with both Paradise Lost and Vallenfyre, I am of the belief that the Mackintosh page meets WP:N (music) guidelines.


 * Mackintosh, therefore, does have notability aside from his work with Paradise Lost. However, his work as guitarist of Paradise Lost is by far his most known world contribution, and the media coverage on the article itself is thin. The Mackintosh article is promising, but needs to be more than merely "promising" in order to justify its existence in Wikipedia's article space. My ultimate recommended course of action is to expand the article's coverage and information, which I would personally prefer happen; or merge the article until such expansion is a possibility. Mungo Kitsch   (talk)  19:56, 13 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose. How can an article grow when it's always deleted and redirected? This happened several times since 2008. Now 5 other languages have an article but not en:. Is there no patience anymore here? And this is a WP:STUB, there are 8 references. Mergists calm down.--Iconicos (talk) 11:01, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I get where is coming from. I was thinking about it, and I do believe that both Strigoi and Host have or can have their notability requirements covered, and that these bands are worthy of having their own articles here. Both bands have released material through Nuclear Blast. Also, if the Mackintosh article was redirected, that would do more, perhaps, to discourage expansion; more people will be interested in expanding something that already exists, as opposed to producing within themselves the thought to make it exist. I did not take an official side with my previous comment, but as I gave this matter further thought, and as I already said that I would rather the article be here than not; I will take a side on the matter and oppose the idea of merging the Gregor Mackintosh article. I believe that letting the Mackintosh article have its independence is worth a shot, and it will be especially justified once the bands I previously mentioned have their own articles.  Mungo Kitsch   (talk)  20:13, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose Due to his involvement with multiple notable bands per above. Seacactus 13 (talk) 04:59, 26 May 2023 (UTC)