Talk:Parapsychology/Archive 5

APA Formatting
As I mentioned before, we really need to clean up the references and the further reading list in this and all parapsychology-related articles. Parapsychologists use APA style formatting for all of their publications, and I believe that Wikipedia articles on parapsychology should follow this trend. I surfed around some various psychology articles to see how they handle citations and noticed two things. First of all, the major psychology articles seldom cite anything, and second, when they do cite things, they tend to use APA format as well.

How many of you are already familiar with APA citation style? And what do you think the pros and cons would be for using this system here at Wikipedia?

It's probably best for us to err on the side of caution and when it doubt, cite, but I wonder if some of us might be going overboard with the citations, and what is the general policy on removing unneccesary references when/if I start reformatting things?

-- Annalisa Ventola (Talk 05:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * This isn't like the psychology articles, because every sentence and every word is potentially a subject of dispute and challenge. No one comes into a psychology articles and asks the authors whether they ever thought of the fact that every major experiment done in psychology has rendered proof that there is no psychology.  Nearly every one of the citations here was requested, so I doubt you'd want to take any of them out unless you can replace them with something better.  I know nothing about the formatting debate on citations.  There are Wikipedia guidelines for citations, though.


 * The citations are indeed a mess, and a lot of them are doubled. You have to do in the first ref, and then for all subsequent citations to that source it is only.


 * The article needs a major re-citation, to take out as many non-peer-reviewed sources as possible, while having the citations remain.  Really, the more citations the better.  But take out personal websites.  That much we can do.  There are really never too many refs!  And the best refs are always to people like Hyman.  I've never had a ref like that challenged.


 * Say- what resources do you have for getting a history article written? The present one is a mess.   Martinphi  (Talk Ψ Contribs) 06:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

External Link
I took down http://publicparapsychology.blogspot.com because its a blog and not therefore a particularly acceptable link per WP:EL. Also, we are not a linkfarm and if we link one Blog we should link them all and that's certainly not acceptable. Also, reviewing the blog I thought there was too much advertising on it for it to be suitable link. For full disclose, I followed a request on the EL talk page asking for an outside view. --Spartaz Humbug! 21:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * For the record, I am fine with this decision (and told Milo that I wouldn't be reverting the deletion before he make an issue of it at WP:EL). I am new around here, and after being kindly refered to the COI page, I understand why posting a link to my own site (no matter it's quality or authority) is unacceptable.  That isn't to say that Public Parapsychology isn't an appropriate link for the article...just that it's inappropriate for me to put it there. -- Annalisa Ventola  (Talk 04:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe you didn't notice, but someone else added the link back after it was removed. I asked for outside opinion based on that, not your original addition.  --Milo H Minderbinder 13:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Then I really don't see why it shouldn't remain. But it's not my battle to fight, so whatever.-- Annalisa Ventola  (Talk 17:04, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It's arguable that the Skeptic's Dictionary site should be removed for having excessive advertising, per WP:EL. I'm not sure that's the case, but that's a valid issue. It doesn't appear to have excessive advertising in my opinion, but what I did want to address the other reason given for removing it, that it's not neutral. External links don't suffer the burden of neutrality like the Wikipedia article itself. Opposing sources should be linked to, especially if they are notable.


 * I'd put the Public Parapsychology blog back in if someone can show something reliable that officially links it to the Parapsychology Association. Without that, no matter who adds it, it will always be disputed per #11 of the WP:EL. Sadly, if it were just a website and not a blog, there'd be less grounds for removal.
 * -- Nealparr  (yell at me 21:11, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well- why don't we keep both links? And why not link to the PA in your blog, Annalisa, and say how you are affiliated?  Then it may be legit.  And as far as taking out the skeptics dictionary, it will be added back- and anyway, it is a skeptical source, as legitimate as they come except for Hyman or someone.  I would link to it even if some skeptic hadn't already.  And anyone can tell by the way it is written that it is biased, so it isn't pretending to be a legitimate scientific source.  Now, if it were written like a textbook or something, that might be different, because it would fool the reader.  And we don't need to worry about this if the text of the article is right.  Martinphi  (Talk Ψ Contribs) 21:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, guys. I do appreciate your support on the blog issue, but I think that we should let it go for now. A few weeks ago, a PA member told me that they wanted me to be 'their' official blogger. I think I misunderstood what they meant by 'their'. Rather, it looks like I will be named the 'official blogger' for the Center for Research on Consciousness and Anomalous Psychology at Lund University, Sweden (this affiliation is just as good, if not better, IMO). The web site for the Center is in development, but I just sent them my picture and CV today, so some sort of documentation should be forthcoming. Additionally, I purchased a domain name for the site so that it can be reformatted as a web site rather than having the blogspot address. All this should come to a head in the next few weeks. So be patient and let the issue of Public Parapsychology go.

However, there has been some discussion about the blog at the talk pages for WP:EL, and there I was told that no matter my supposed authority as a blog owner, the link would not be permitted because it contains advertising and because a blog, by its very nature, does not present a neutral point of view. If those are the rules, fine...but I think that everybody should have to play by them. By that reasoning, I don't think that the link to the Skeptic's Dictionary belongs there either. -- Annalisa Ventola (Talk 23:45, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Heck yeah. If they're going to be that strict about it, remove the Skeptic's Dictionary also.  I think they are both informative in some sense, but we have to delete one if we delete the other.  I mean, he's linked to amazon right at the top in the middle, and he's selling his own book, first things you see.  And all the other links in all the other articles, also.  Martinphi  (Talk Ψ Contribs) 01:18, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * They either didn't read the guidelines in WP:EL or misinterpreted them if they told you all that. The guidelines say "objectionable" amounts of advertising. Neither your blog nor the Skeptic Dictionary has objectional amounts of advertisements in any real sense. The neutrality issue was totally misinterpreted. The guidelines permit non-neutral websites, but a neutral amount of them. That is, websites can be non-neutral, but if you have several external links you should try to have equal amounts of links to the differing views. One pro-paranormal + one pro-skeptic = Neutral. Even blogs are alright, but the guideline has a special requirement that they should be a "recognized authority". It's all a little funny because here we have an encyclopedia that is predominantly text-based, but no one reads anything : )


 * Of course, it should be said that these are just guidelines. There's no hard-set rules. The real reason your blog was contested is most likely because a lot of blog owners spam Wikipedia for links and promotion. That's a no no and blogs are always looked on with suspicion first.
 * -- Nealparr  (yell at me 01:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:EL
The "undue" advertising are simple links off to the site, quite in common with a lot of resources on the internet. As for "undue", this is drawing a rather long bow at what is only two links off to one side. This meets EL not to mention V and RS. Shot info 11:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Not only that, but this article probably should have a tag given the number of "many" and "some" and the low quality of RS sources used.  There are some (many) oddball references which suggest a strong OR environment.  Basically the article doesn't really read like an explanation of Parapsychology but a defense of it.  Something that WP shouldn't do (NPOV).  Looking forward to discussion.  BTW, somebody should archive the earlier discussions.  Ta Shot info 11:43, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Many of the earlier discussions and the points you raised are currently being worked on. While lengthy, they are current. It really only needs the one totally disputed tag it has since that superceeds all the others.
 * -- Nealparr  (yell at me 14:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd agree that SD doesn't have that much advertising, the blog was removed mainly because it's a blog, and this removal seems like making a WP:POINT. --Milo H Minderbinder 14:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a pretty heavy acusation to level against my removal of a simple link, not to mention pretty dismissive of the points that I raised. It would be more helpful to weigh in the discussion of whether or not Spartaz was accurate in telling me that external links should be free of advertising and promote a NPOV.  I'm trying to learn the ropes around here, and as far as I can tell, they are looking a little uneven.  -- Annalisa Ventola  (Talk 15:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This problem is solved. The blog is gone, the links are balanced to NPOV. Annalisa is right that if external links shouldn't be POV, or advertise, then skepdic has to be purged from Wikipedia. I conclude that some advertising is OK, but blogs are very iffy, because they are one person's opinion.  Oops.  Funny thing.  So is Skepdic.  The most relevant passage I can find is here, on number 11.  But I think if your site becomes affiliated with an institution, it should be acceptable. WP:EL says that you should include "Sites that contain neutral and accurate material," but it says nothing about not including POV sites.  So the POV question is not relevant.  One could try and add to the article that we should not include sites which are almost purely POV- but then we'd have to delete more than half of all the links in Wikipedia.  Martinphi  (Talk Ψ Contribs) 03:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Lists
You're right "Ta Shot info". This article needs a lot of work. It's making a little progress but not as much as I'd like to see. I'm too busy to actually do editing myself but I will help by pointing out another problem with the article. The section titled "Parapsychologists and critics" seems more like a competition list to see which side has more supporters. I add more supporters on the "Skeptic" side and then Martin or someone else adds more on the "support" side and the list keeps growing. I suggest we simply limit each side to 12 supporters and critics of parapsychology. Here is my list of 12 for the "Skeptic" side.
 * Ray Hyman
 * Richard Wiseman
 * Carl Sagan
 * Michael Shermer
 * Isaac Asimov
 * Penn & Teller
 * Joe Nickell
 * Bill Nye
 * James Randi
 * Arthur C. Clarke
 * John Stossel
 * Philip Plait

If someone cam come up with some other names that could replace some of the names here then post them. But I think each side should be limited to 12. Otherwise it's nothing more than a competition of names and if I wanted I could come up with literally hundreds to add to the list in the article. Wikidudeman  (talk) 03:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Toss it altogether as not really necessary. You don't list all the people working in biology for example. If the issue is resolving competition by limiting it to 12 per side, then a competition can open up over who gets to be in the 12.
 * -- Nealparr  (yell at me 03:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No one is competing. I don't think I've added any names you didn't first delete for months.  If you want to come up with hundreds, do it.  Then we can split off a separate section (I'm certainly not concerned: if there are that many notable critics, the reader will think, parapsychology must be a phenomenon very worth noting).  But no grown-up reader is going to say "more and bigger is better."  It is just the more notable skeptics and parapsychologists.  No reason for a limit and no fuss.


 * However, looking at your list, I hate to say it, but it contains a a lot fewer credentials than the notable list for parapsychology. I'd say that we surely don't want the reader to come away with the notion that Nobel Laureates and other scientists study parapsychology, while entertainers, comedians, pundits, and science fiction writers and CSI members criticize it- do we?  Martinphi  (Talk Ψ Contribs) 03:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, it would be fine with me if the lists were limited, perhaps to 20. But I don't see how we'd enforce it.  And you even forgot Alcock!  I suggest just seperating the lists, so that if there is anyone who thinks "more and bigger is better," it won't be so easy to count.  Martinphi  (Talk Ψ Contribs) 04:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't see much a reason for the lists, actually. Any notable parapsychologists or critics should be mentioned in the article (or an article about skepticism, etc...) and those who don't make the article (and have Wikipedia articles of their own already) could be mentioned as a term in 'see also' section.  There's a few people in that 'list of parapsychologists' who don't qualify as parapsychologists (if you really get strict about it), and a number of others who might not appreciate the label either.  -- Annalisa Ventola  (Talk 07:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. If we don't cut down the size of the lists then we need to get rid of them all together. Anything above 12 each is just too many. Wikidudeman  (talk) 07:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd agree that a list isn't necessary, any notable figures can be mentioned in the text. --Milo H Minderbinder 14:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Someone remove the list then. Wikidudeman  (talk) 04:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Member or Affiliate?
"member of the American Association for the Advancement of Science since 1969.[6]" Also the reference doesn't link through to any source explaining the AAAS association. Any ideas? Shot info 07:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It's listed as an "affiliate" of the AAAS.[] Wikidudeman  (talk) 07:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Affiliate. That is what they are called, and we need to change the text:


 * Criteria for Affiliation of Organizations with the AAAS

"The objectives of the AAAS are: "to further the work of scientists, to facilitate cooperation among them, to foster scientific freedom and responsibility, to improve the effectiveness of science in the promotion of human welfare, and to increase public understanding and appreciation of the importance and promise of the methods of science in human progress." There are many membership organizations and professional societies which have similar aims or have interest in supporting these objectives. Association with each other can be a mutually useful way of furthering these aims. The AAAS has established affiliation of organizations with AAAS as a means of furthering these common purposes. Criteria for such affiliation are set forth below, but final judgment as to whether or not an organization sufficiently satisfies these criteria shall rest with the Council.


 * 1. Its aims are clearly directed toward, or consistent with, the objectives of the Association.
 * 2. Its program and record of activities demonstrate interest in or substantial support of research, publications, or teaching in science or the advancement of science.
 * 3. It is committed to the principle of equal opportunity as stated in the AAAS Statement on Discrimination in the Workplace.
 * 4. It has sufficiently large membership (usually at least 200) and has been in existence for a sufficient time (usually at least five years) to give promise of continued support and worthwhile activity.

Approved by the AAAS Council, February 21, 1976; revised May 29, 1986."

From here and listed here  Martinphi  (Talk Ψ Contribs) 07:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for finding this, Martin. Some if this might make good material for the history section that I am working on.  -- Annalisa Ventola  (Talk 16:35, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Proposed deltion
"Parapsychology has made significant contributions to other fields, in such areas as the mind-body problem, the transformative effects of parapsychological experiences, and the psychology of OBEs.[26]" I think that quoting a paper that says so, is not equivalent with the fact that this is true. As far as I know parapsychology has not produced even a single interesting repeatable observation, and the only purpose is to destabilize conventional science. Parapsyshology as defined in the articles of its proponents is not what it actually is. Parapsychology searches for experimental disproof of normal science and not for explanation of what has been observed, thus parapsychology is useless. Danko Georgiev MD 07:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd say because the research exists, an entry should be there. It's likely true that "no significant" findings have been produced, etc, etc. People still have devoted time, and energy to it and if one wants to know "what is parapsychology" and what have they done, an encyclopedia is a valid place to look. It is a valid part of our culture at the very least. Simularly, the "flat earth society" existed and should be mentioned in a reputable encyclopedia, so should the "ether" which was proven by modern physics not to exist. Any good article on the subject should most definately reference skeptics. (Of course, the small list given is a tip of the iceberg. Most people are likely skeptics. That another story.) George Jost, 01:14, march 12, 2007


 * I would tend to agree not because I agree or disagree with the purposes of the article subject, but because we are writing an encyclopedia and we aren't here to whitewash what the subject has achieved in the recognised literature. BTW, I think the article[] is pretty good but probably should be in the "background" section rather than in the lead.  Shot info 08:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It looks OK to me, because it is only the opinion of one man. He is also has very good credentials. Here is a link [] Myriam Tobias 20:23, 7 March 2007 (UTC)