Talk:Paris Jackson/Archive 1

BLP Viloations
Snuggums can you pls help to fix the BLP violations in this page ? Akhiljaxxn (talk) 02:01, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I would go so far to call anything here a BLP violation, but it regardless fails WP:BIO when she doesn't yet get much (if any) attention for things that don't have to do with family affiliations. Please STOP RESTORING THIS ARTICLE until she's truly noted for things OF HER OWN MERIT and not simply for being Michael Jackson's daughter. Also, you need to stop inserting blatant fancruft like calling him a "pop legend" within the article text, which violates the WP:Neutral point of view policy. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:12, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Paris has been signed by top modeling agency IMG Models two months ago the same firm that represents the likes of Gisele Bundchen, Alessandra Ambrosio, Bella hadid and Gigi hadid. She has been the cover of 3 magazine imcluding rolling stone.she has been appeard in grammy and glaad awards and won Emerging Talent award at the Daily Front Row's award night. u wont get an award for being a daughter of celebrity or a politician.and i didnt used the word pop legend it may be added by someone else. Akhiljaxxn (talk) 05:38, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

She has yet to do anything notable on her own, everything she has done so far is related to being Michael Jackson's daughter--specifically that Rolling Stone cover. The whole interview was literally about him.... I believe this article should be deleted until she actually does notable work with her own name. I mean the header itself says "aspiring"! For Christ's sake if it was any other person this would've been deleted months ago. And IMG Models has well over 100 girls maybe even over 200 girls on their roster, being an "IMG Girl" isn't notable unless you actually start working.164.106.75.253 (talk) 19:58, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Articles for deletion/Paris Jackson (actress) (2nd nomination) would be the spot to make your argument, then. TheValeyard (talk) 22:37, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Being Jackson's adopted daughter doesn't make her notable. Notability is not inherited. I agree that the article doesn't demonstrate her to be independently notable. --Tataral (talk) 17:21, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Updated photo
Just wondering is there a way to possibly have a more recent and better quality photo of Paris? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.240.187.36 (talk) 22:54, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Activist?
We're told she's an activist. At what? Nuttyskin (talk) 05:01, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * From what I'm able to find, she's an activist about environmental issues (such as the great barrier reef), and outspoken about politics.--QueerFilmNerd (talk) 08:00, 21 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Again an editor has edit warred the nonsensical claim that she is an "activist" into the lead section, without mentioning what kind of activism, and although the body of the article doesn't mention any activism with a single word. --Tataral (talk) 15:04, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
 * We follow the reliable sources, nor what some editors call nonsensical. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 15:13, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is based on reliable sources and the lead section is a summary of the material found in the body of the article. The body of the article doesn't mention any kind of activist activity with a single word, so the word activist doesn't belong in the lead. As a minimum, the article would have to include a description in the body of some kind of activism for us to include this material in the lead. This has already been explained to you. Also, do not make blanket reverts to old versions after other editors have made multiple edits, and do not remove reliably sourced material without discussion. If you have any issue with any particular material, bring it up here on the talk page. --Tataral (talk) 01:58, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Parentage
Paris Jackson is only known for being Michael Jackson's (legal) daughter. All coverage of her is related to, and directly derived from, that. At the same time, there is an enormous amount of coverage of the fact that her godfather, Mark Lester, and another close Jackson friend, say he's her biological father, and the fact that she's clearly a person without any visible trace of African ancestry. After years of coverage of this, and after she and her brother, both of whom are now adults, themselves discussed the possibility that Lester was their father in a Rolling Stone interview, there is no reason to leave this material out of the article, at least not without a very good reason and discussion. --Tataral (talk) 01:58, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Mark Lester's claims are likely bullshit but there's no source confirming that so you are right. We should probably leave it. Another option is that we can find a source though. JayKayXD (talk) 12:14, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Get the sources, and you can include that. Dimadick (talk) 15:01, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

I recently created a category (Donor conceived people). I'm wondering if we should include Paris Jackson in this category. It seems clear that Paris Jackson is donor conceived, but there is a question as to who the biological father really is. It is mentioned in this article that Mark Lester did admit to donating sperm. I figure perhaps she could be included in that category even though there is no confirmation as to who the donor was. --MusicAndArtFan (talk) 19:57, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Category:African-American female models and similar African-American categories
We shouldn't include ethnic categories in any article unless we have very high quality sources with no room for doubt. This is not the case here; we actually have numerous sources that say she is a white person, and quite a number of sources and commentators have compared the claim that she is African-American to the claims made by Rachel Dolezal and described such claims as offensive to African Americans. It has been quite rightly pointed out that the phenomenon of white people simply declaring themselves to be Black is an example of white privilege and systemic racism, as it would never be accepted if an African-looking person declared himself or herself to be white. Many reliable sources consider this form of appropriation as a form of racism in itself, which is another reason for us to be very careful with these categories. --Tataral (talk) 01:58, 24 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Dude... she is the daughter of the most famous African-American entertainer EVER. We can't decide that she's "not black enough" because she doesn't look the part. "African-looking" is subjective; to my Nigerian friend most African-American celebrities look white or brown, rather than black. Paris has lost her father, was never really connected to her mother, was raped, was cyberbullied. Girl has been through enough shit, she doesn't need the SJW police descending on her. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:AB88:443F:2000:D469:5100:3318:5EC6 (talk)


 * It could be argued that Halsey doesn't "look" black. The same might be said about Pete Wentz, Mariah Carey, or even Michael Jackson. That's not at all relevant to the fact that Paris and her entire family identify Michael as her biological father, and unless there is any evidence contradicting that, Wikipedia must treat that information as factual. She is, by all evidence, an African-American woman, and should be identified as such in the article. Hihellowhatsup (talk) 10:46, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
 * No, Wikipedia is based on reliable sources. Many reliable sources describe her as ethnically white. Whether she is the legal daughter of Michael Jackson isn't relevant for whether she is ethnically of African descent, and in the context of including her in a category covering African-American models. Category:African-American female models is clearly a category for people who are in fact of African descent and who can meaningfully be described as "African American mdoels", not for people who merely identify with African American culture in some way, for one or the other reason. If we were to include her, there would be no reason to exclude Rachel Dolezal based upon her stated self-identification, and the category would both become utterly meaningless, in addition to the fact that the inclusion of white people based upon "identification as black" regardless of ancestry is both highly controversial and very insentitive and even racist in many people's opinion, given that no Black people are afforded such a privilege when it comes to "identifying as white". --Tataral (talk) 02:35, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Just because someone doesn't like the fact that white people can be of African descent doesn't mean we should WP:CENSOR. Rachel Dolezal is a completely different situation; you can't just say someone is merely the legal father of someone without any evidence in an attempt to omit information. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS or doesn't exist is not a valid argument unless based on consensus. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 13:51, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't know who these people are who allegedly dislike that she is allegedly of African descent. The problem is that there isn't a trace of evidence for the claim that she is of African descent. There are numerous sources that state that she is a white person with no known Black ancestry and with two white biological parents; even her own godfather has confirmed this. The comparison to Dolezal who grew up with Black (legal) relatives and who "identifies as Black" is highly relevant, especially because a Black-looking person with two Black biological parents and no known white ancestry would never be allowed to "identify as White" and be considered a "white model" for the purpose of inclusion in a relevant Wikipedia category. There is no reason to treat Jackson differently in this regard than Angelina Jolie's (legal) children of various ethnicities (Black, Cambodian etc). --Tataral (talk) 19:37, 14 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Also I find it puzzling that some would claim that her unverified African ancestry is relevant, while her (verified and undisputed) ancestry on her mother's side is "irrelevant", and many people would probably regard such a sentiment, that only the father's ancestry is relevant while the mother's ancestry is "irrelevant", as highly misogynist. --Tataral (talk) 19:52, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * What do you mean there isn't a trace of evidence for the claim that she is of African descent, her father is of African descent. You are saying that there are numerous sources that state that she is a white person with no known Black ancestry and with two white biological parents but you are not presenting these. Dolezals father is not black so it is a different situation. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:13, 14 April 2018 (UTC)


 * You are very well aware that is been very widely reported (and that it was also included in this article) that her godfather Mark Lester has said he is her biological father ("Paris Jackson wants to visit biological dad"), something she and her brother (who didn't deny the claim) have themselves discussed. However, you are the editor who wants to include an especially contentious and sensitive category which requires meticulous sourcing, so it's your responsibility to prove that she is in fact without doubt of African descent in an ethnic sense, given the nature of that category. Michael Jackson being her legal father doesn't by itself make her any more Black than Angelina Jolie's ethnically Black or Cambodian children are white. You have also not explained your very odd assertion that her verified ancestry on her mother's side is "irrelevant" while only the alleged paternal ancestry is relevant. Do you, as a matter of principle, consider maternal ancestry irrelevant, and paternal ancestry relevant, and in that case, why? --Tataral (talk) 18:53, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

I am not well aware that is has been widely reported about Mark Lester. The children of Angelina Jolie are a different matter. You should read WP:CATDEF for why the mother's side is irrelevant, Paris is not known for that. I don't consider as matter of principle what you are saying, just in this case. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:02, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you should read it yourself. She is certainly not "known for" any Black ancestry. As far as ethnicity is concerned, she is in fact widely "known for" being entirely white, just like Rachel Dolezal, regardless of any self-identification with Black culture due to growing up around Black legal relatives. Your claim that maternal ancestry is irrelevant is spurious; her maternal heritage has in fact been widely reported on; if anything she is "known for" her mother's Jewish heritage and not for any imaginary African descent; in particular her maternal Jewish ancestry was a major factor in the coverage of the Jackson children. The removal of the category on her maternal ancestry is clearly not based on whether she is "known for" it. In fact the only ethnic category that is appropriate per WP:CATDEF is the Jewish one; it's her only verified ancestry that she is in fact known for. --Tataral (talk) 14:45, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
 * The article at the moment says nothing about Jewish ancestry. Feel free to add that back if you make mention of it in the article. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:37, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

This is a rather sensitive subject on a number of levels. Michael Jackson was her father and he raised her, yet there are questions in regard to whether or not he is the biological father. While there are strong rumors about Mark Lester being the biological father and him being a sperm donor, it would not be responsible for a wikipedia article to speculate on celebrity gossip. The thing is, there has never been official and irrefutable proof of whether or not Michael Jackson or Mark Lester is the biological father. The only way we would get the truth and be able to report it on wikipedia is if Paris Jackson herself took a DNA test and if Mark Lester took a test as well. However, I don't think we can say that she is of African decent or donor-conceived because we just don't know. Perhaps we could mention that Mark Lester is her godfather. On his page, it is mentioned that he had been rumored to be the biological father. I'm not sure if that rumor should be mentioned on this page though. Perhaps we can discuss this matter. --MusicAndArtFan (talk) 01:36, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. Community Tech bot (talk) 17:36, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Paris Jackson 2018.jpg

Semi-protected edit request on 7 August 2018
Move "Jackson was sexually assaulted at 14 by an older man she describes as a "complete stranger". This trauma, along with that of being cyberbullied,[18] drove her to attempt suicide three times.[7] After the last attempt, she was sent to a therapeutic school in Utah, where she spent her sophomore and junior year of high school, and which she credits with helping her overcome depression.[19]" from "Early life" section to "Personal life". This is where information like this is categorized on other's wikipedia pages.

Add to personal life " In July 2018, Jackson confirmed to a fan she’s attracted to both men and women — but stressed she doesn’t want to be labeled." 97.99.202.11 (talk) 17:13, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: For your first request - that information is in the "Early life" section, not the "Career" section, which seems correct to me as is. For the second request - it's already in the "Personal life" section that she identifies as bisexual. Any further additions would have to add encyclopedic value to the article, and be supported by reliable, published sources. &#8209;&#8209; El Hef  ( Meep? ) 17:23, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

his is just to add that she'd rather not be labeled. This kind of contradicts statements about her being bi. I would think that you guys should keep any information about her saying that she is bi but add the sentence I wrote above so that it is a little move accurate. my source: https://people.com/music/paris-jackson-doesnt-label-sexuality/ I apologize if I sent you a message like this a couple minuets ago, I was not sure if that was sent or not.

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.99.202.11 (talk)
 * ❌ Already in the article. Fish +Karate 09:32, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Name of the clinic where she was born
I added birthplace of Jackson in this moment, because it was appearing source in her mother artcles, The source is birth certificate, it said She was born in Spaulding Pain Medical Clinic in Beverly Hills, So I readed the source that was born in there, So I went to added source in there ,but I don't know how to help to add sources in there, Do anybody can help me to adding source from Debbie Rowe articles, Can you helping me to move source into Paris Jackson articles ? Thanks you!User:Geoffreyrabbit 13:54, 20 August 2018(UTC)
 * I see no reason to include the name of the particular clinic in which she was born. Articles generally only mention the city where someone was born – not mentioning the specific facility or address. Why should this article include that particular detail? —BarrelProof (talk) 21:45, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 October 2018
Paris Jackson's eye color is not blue. She has herself stated multiple times that her eyes are green. 7moonwalker7 (talk) 23:37, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
 * The source provided in the article did not say they are blue and you provided no source saying they are green. Consequently, I have removed the parameter from the infobox. DrKay (talk) 08:16, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

The category "victims of cyberbullying"
The category "victims of cyberbullying" is reserved for individuals who are notable as victims of cyberbullying according to reliable, independent sources. There is nothing in the article that establishes that she is notable as a victim of cyberbullying or that she even is a victim of cyberbullying. She derives her notability solely from being Michael Jackson's legal child, and more recently for dismissing any criticism of Michael Jackson in a way that could reasonably be seen as quite offensive by many people. Her own claim that she has encountered comments in the media that she disagrees with (presumably related to Michael Jackson) does not establish that she is a victim of cyberbullying, or notable as such, and it would need independent verification, not just her own claims, to be included in Wikipedia's voice (e.g. as a category). --Tataral (talk) 02:47, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Emphasis in lead
Per WP:LEAD "the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources.".

Virtually all coverage of her in reliable sources treat her relationship to Jackson as her sole claim to fame, so the main emphasis should be on that. As far as singing and so on are concerned, it would seem fair to regard her as an amateur singer. She is certainly not notable as a singer. The same goes for acting; she has appeared in exactly one film in a minor role, and most RS only describe her as an aspiring actress. --Tataral (talk) 23:16, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Personal Life Section
This really is a poorly written section, full of stuff that shouldn't be there. For instance:

"She has also said she has experienced cyberbullying and has been the target of cruel online comments"

Unnecessary line. All celebrities, as well as almost everyone else, experiences this.

"In the aftermath of Michael Jackson's death, British actor Mark Lester, gave an interview to the British tabloid News of the World, in which he said that he was a sperm donor for Michael Jackson in 1996 and that he could be the biological father of Paris Jackson. He stated that he was willing to take a paternity test to determine whether he was the biological father.[32][33][34] Lester said that he tried to take the paternity test but was rejected by Michael Jackson's lawyer, saying that Michael always insisted he was the father and he believes him.[35] Later, Lester indicated that he had moved on."

This should not be mentioned because she did not comment or acknowledge it in anyway. Maybe add it to Lesters page, but not here. This is just rumor.

Actually I'm going to go ahead and remove these two lines. Sourced or not, they don't need to be and shouldn't be here. Zdawg1029 (talk) 02:11, 25 March 2019 (UTC)


 * It’s irrelevant whether she commented on it or not. It’s a thing that happened that relates directly to her story and belongs in the article. Arguably, it’s the second most famous thing about her. I’d venture to say more people probably know her parentage is disputed than know she’s a singer or an activist or whatever else she does. UniNoUta (talk) 05:58, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:52, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * DXs8AlJWsAEUGRv.jpg

Removing all references to her being African American
Referring to a white person as African American is a form of Cultural Appropriation. Just like Rachel Dolezal did. It is racist against African Americans who feel robbed of their identity. From her mother's article Debbie Rowe who stated that the father of her two children was an anonymous donor. . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.120.10.20 (talk) 21:24, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 * You aren’t allowed to remove sourced material with banned sources and bad sources. Paris is alive. Per BLP, an editor isn’t allowed to allow their feelings dictate something they have no proof over, thus slandering someone that is alive. TruthGuardians (talk) 11:01, 20 December 2020 (UTC)