Talk:Park Avenue main line

Murray Hill Tunnel
The NYC DOT refers to the Murray Hill tunnel as the Park Avenue Tunnel. For example:
 * ''...This trend is directly attributed to the unusual configuration of the intersection and its location at the terminus or “mouth” of the Park Avenue Tunnel, which runs under Park Avenue between East33rd and East 40th Streets. The tunnel serves two-way traffic with one lane in each direction. There is a posted height clearance of 8’–11” and trucks are prohibited in the tunnel. At the north leg of the intersection, the Park Avenue Tunnel emerges, severely limiting visibility for southbound Park Avenue traffic exiting the tunnel..

I don't thinks it's a "mistake" to refer to it as the Park Avenue Tunnel--Work permit (talk) 06:49, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I had pretty much decided the current nomenclature was correct, with PAT for the working rail tunnel and MHT for the road tunnel. This is notwithstanding local popular usage, which I tend to shy away from, which is one of the reasons I'm happy to let people from the East Side or New Jersey or Venezuela or whatever decide on correct name for West Side places.
 * Then last weekend on my way to Brooklyn I parked my bike on Murray Hill and took a picture looking into the south end of the road tunnel, now illustrating that article which if you zoom in will show an official sign saying "Park Avenue Tunnel". So yes, I'm coming around to the view that the name PAT belongs in Murray Hill, which leaves the question of what name to apply to the Upper East Side rail tunnel which apparently was built under a name which the tunnel built under the name of "Murray Hill Tunnel" now uses.  It's not a question of being able to find the correct tunnel since hatnotes and other usual Wiki mechanisms can handle that; it's just a pedantic question of getting it right.  Jim.henderson (talk) 15:13, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Is there a more appropriate name (formal or common-use) for the UES one? Or are they both presently and most commonly called "PAT"? Those are what would dictate the name of the WP pages. If they're both "PAT", that's fine...we can use standard WP:MOSDAB solutions: call one "PAT (Upper East Side)" the other "PAT (Murray Hill)", or one "PAT (railroad)" the other "PAT (street)" or somesuch, with "PAT" itself as an agnostic table of contents for both of them. Given that "MHT" is the formal name for that tunnel (is that true?) using it as the name of its page is probably most appropriate. But moving the other one to a more specific (disambig'ed) title would also make sense since there are several things that are presently apparently-officially called "PAT" (and again leave "PAT" itself as a pure disambig page). See also Talk:Murray Hill Tunnel. 16:37, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The railway tunnel is known to local railway geeks as the PAT. The MTA refers to it as the PAT. For example, in their latest captial budget  they plan for:
 * construction of the Park Avenue Tunnel and Viaduct Alarm system
 * As a native New Yorker, PAT is what I understood the name of the railway tunnel to be.  The roadway is certainly better known to New Yorkers and is also called the PAT.  The NYC Department of Transportation refers to the roadway as the PAT.  I'm not sure how much more wp:RS you can get then the DOT name for a NYC roadway.  And yes, there are roadway signs referring to the roadway as the PAT.  I never heard the term "Murray Hill Tunnel" until I read this article for Wikipedia.  More importantly, the NYC DOT DOESN'T use the term Murray hill tunnel when referring to the PAT.  So why does Wikipedia?  What makes Murray hill tunnel the official name for the roadway?  I think the simple answer is BOTH tunnels are known as the PAT.  As far as WP:MOSDAB it's more appropriate to call them "PAT (Roadway)" and "PAT (Railway)".  No one in New York (including the MTA or DOT) considers the differentiating factor it’s location. The differentiating factor is it's usage.  When you hear on the news that "the New Haven branch is running 10 minutes delays due to construction in the Park Avenue Tunnel", when the MTA is planning it's capital project, you know which tunnel they mean.  When you tell the cabbie "take the Park Avenue Tunnel", when the NYC DOT is planning on putting up guard rails to restrict pedestrian traffic, you also understand which tunnel is being referenced. --Work permit (talk) 01:20, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * "PAT (roadway)" and "PAT (railway)" sounds pretty good then. FWIW, I did hear it called "MHT" when I lived in New York, but I think only in discussions of its bygone railroad era (which again supports present-day use as the disambiguator (if that's a word:). DMacks (talk) 04:49, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds like we agree. Murray Hill Tunnel get moved to Park Avenue Tunnel (roadway).  Park Avenue Tunnel gets moved to Park Avenue Tunnel (railway).  Murray Hill Tunnel then gets redirected to the roadway page.  Only open question.  Does Park Avenue Tunnel default to Park Avenue Tunnel (roadway) or is it it's own disambg page?--Work permit (talk) 05:07, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd go with a pure disambig page (least surprise, given that both are apparently "really"--depending on who's looking--called PAT and "the other one" is called something else entirely if it's even considered). Let's give a day or so before doing it for others to chime in? DMacks (talk) 05:33, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Definitely disambiguate it: --NE2 05:58, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

As a latecomer to this discussion, but the guy who took the picture of the tunnel entrance, I add my support for the renaming. Daniel Case (talk) 21:39, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

As an aside, I saw a report about the the construction of the IRT subway line (in a separate tunnel below the MHT (PAT roadway) describing that subway tunnel as "Murray Hill Tunnel" too:) DMacks (talk) 22:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

The only thing I'd change is to use Railroad instead of Railway, as its the predominant U.S. usage, and this article is about a railroad tunnel in the U.S.. Also, the railroad that runs through it is called the Metro-North Railroad, so this isn't the case of a U.S. RR using the Commonwealth usage, either. oknazevad (talk) 03:26, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Here is concrete evidences of the NYC DOT usage (it is an official NYC DOT roadway information sign, photo taken outside Saks Fifth Avenue this weekend).Farmhouse121 (talk) 02:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)



Farmhouse121 (talk) 02:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Yorkville Tunnel
Somebody should add a chapter on the Yorkville Tunnel, the predecessor to the Park Avenue Tunnel. -User:DanTD (talk) 23:35, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I drastically expanded the article in my sandbox and just moved it to the mainspace. I would appreciate your comments, and could use help creating a line description section. Thanks.--Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 22:21, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Park Avenue LPC report
This Park Avenue LPC report may interest you. It's a historic district that covers buildings in the UES that were built after the Main Line was constructed. epicgenius (talk) 14:21, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I have looked at it in the past, but hadn't thought of using it. Thanks for the suggestion.--Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 14:33, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * No problem. I think there may be some stuff in there that can be used to expand the Park Avenue article as well. epicgenius (talk) 14:40, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I added a sentence more about the construction of mansions and high-end apartments. Do you have any advice on how to include information about the prestige of the corridor, and the patterns of development along it? Thanks.--Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 14:44, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , I think we should work inward - write a few paragraphs for the Park Avenue article, then write a summary of these paragraphs in this article. epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * That makes sense.--Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 14:47, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Do you have any advice on how best to expand the lead? I want to resolve as many of the issues that the article has before it gets taken up for review. Thanks.--Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 14:51, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , I guess you can add another history paragraph in the lead. Specifically, what were the impacts and how did the construction of the line affect service and development. epicgenius (talk) 14:58, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks.--Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 14:59, 3 October 2019 (UTC)