Talk:Park Place (Ontario)

Reformatted?
User:NE2 - I have reformated the article to reflect the historical chronology of events and their impact on Park Place per your request.

Untitled
Corn Children Corn Children (talk) 02:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You didn't explain how Fox's arrest and imprisonment has affected Park Place. --NE2 02:35, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Re: Park Place (Ontario)

Dear NE2:

The article meets WP:NPOV on the basis that it reports (verbatim) what was reported in the mainstream media on each of the sections covered in the article. To be perfectly honest, you can't get any more 'neutral' than that. The unatractive truth of the matter is that since the closure of the Molson plant in 2000, the Park Place lands have been mired in scandal after scandal. As ugly a subject that pedophilia is, NADG's handling of the 'Les Fox' debacle (in publicly stating that their company continues to be 'proud' of him) has raised more than a few eyebrows in the City of Barrie and has and will negatively impact on Park Place.

Thanks in advance.

Corn Children Corn Children (talk) 02:42, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Can you please provide a source for that negative impact? As for NPOV, wording like "Child Pornography Scandal Rocks Park Place" definitely does not meet it. --NE2 02:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Re: Park Place (Ontario)

Dear NE2:

Thanks so much for your constructive advice on the Park Place (Ontario) article. I have made all the changes that you suggested.

Corn Children Corn Children (talk) 02:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, no
NE2 is correct. The entire child porn issue has no relation to the location described in this article. I am taking it out. Further, an article specifically about the convicted man is below the notability level for this encyclopedia; convictions such as this are, sadly, too commonplace of occurrences to have a place in an international encyclopedia. I will rework the article to eliminate the coatrack attempt to include irrelevant information. Risker (talk) 03:03, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, I have completed a re-edit of the article, taking out the child porn stuff. Additional work remains to be done. References should be cleaned up using the appropriate templates. A reference and more thorough description of the City of Barrie denial of the zoning application should be sought and included. A photograph of some sort, perhaps a free-use one from one of the concerts, would add something here; or perhaps a map showing the location.  Current status of the building project should probably be included as well ("As of April 2008, demolition/construction had/had not begun...").  Risker (talk) 03:43, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The article is not a coatrack, is neutrally written, quoting mainstream media (verbatim) and is in keeping with Wikipedia rules and policies
Dear Risker:

I will be reworking the aforementioned article to remove all content references to 'Les Fox' by name in keeping with Wikipedia rules. As I mentioned to NE2 (you'll note that he eventually agreed with my position) the emphasis is not on 'Les Fox' or his conviction, but on NADG's 'handling' of the incident, their issuance of a public statement stating that they 'continue to be proud' of him and the 'thousands of jobs that will be delayed' due to his incarceration, and its impact on Park Place and the Barrie community. My contributions to this article were not a 'coatrack' attempt as you stated on the discussion page, but instead quoted mainstream media coverage (verbatim) of the events in chronological order. The original article was a mish-mash of (uncited) information and left out major events in Park Place's history and their impact on the site and the Barrie community. Following my contribution to the article, it reflects actual events, documented in a neutral tone and in keeping with Wikipedia's rules and policies.

Corn Children Corn Children (talk) 14:31, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You have still failed to show that it actually affected Park Place. --NE2 20:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Still a coatrack
The article is about Park Place. It is not about the development company or its employees. You might want to try to write an article about them, where this might be appropriate. What you have not done is provided reliable sources that convincingly demonstrate that the development has ground to a halt because one employee was convicted. That section does not belong in this article, although it may be relevant to another one.

Further, your reversion has removed all of the formatting and other edits made to the article to bring it into Wikipedia standard format. I strongly urge you to revert yourself; the formatting will be changed sometime over the weekend, when I get to it. I think you may benefit from reading some similar "neighbourhood"-type articles, to see what their expected content is; you can find many of them in Category:Neighbourhoods in Toronto for some examples. That is what this article should be targeted at. Risker (talk) 23:28, 25 April 2008 (UTC) Oh, I forgot to mention: No need to email me when you make a change, it shows up in my watchlist and I will review. It is much better to keep all discussions on the article here on its talk page so that it is centralised and everyone knows who said what. Thanks. Risker (talk) 23:30, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Risker wrote: "What you have not done is provided reliable sources that convincingly demonstrate that the development has ground to a halt because one employee was convicted." What you have not done, Risker is properly read the quote (verbatim) by North American Development Group, LLC's Managing Partner, Terry Coughlin who wrote to the court stating that if Les Fox is incarcerated that 'thousands of jobs would be delayed'. If you're going to 'play Editor' you should at least learn to read.

NE2 conceded to my earlier argument regarding NPOV, coatrack etc however, the logic of my argument appears to be lost on you.

Accordingly, I have reposted the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Corn Children (talk • contribs) 21:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Were thousands of jobs delayed? Did this delay the construction? If so maybe there should be one or two sentences. --NE2 22:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Before anyone else reverts
There is a disagreement about what should be in this article—for Corn Children's benefit, this is referred to as a "content dispute" here at Wikipedia. We cannot keep going back and forth on these versions without the article getting locked or somebody being blocked from editing. Instead, I suggest that we request a third opinion from editors who have not looked at this article before and will bring unbiased comment and recommendations. This may not happen immediately; it may take a few days, even. Does anyone have an objection to this? Risker (talk) 22:30, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Collection of other information
Further to my suggestion above, I will wait to hear from NE2 and Corn Children before making further changes to the article. In the interim, however, I believe we should analyse the references used to date, and also collect further information. For example - here is the website for Park Place (the official one, from the developer's website)-Official Site. According to this site, at the very most site preparation has begun. There is no indication of when construction will start. There is no list of companies that have signed leases. It's a sales pitch, with no indication that anything has actually been sold or leased so far. Even the one place it mentions retailer names, it says stores "like" Best Buy and Futureshop, not that they will be tenants. I can't find any press releases or news reports listing signed tenants (unusual for a development about to be built). This is the website for the parent company, North American Development Group. Now really...the short-term absence of a manager of community relations is going to stop this development if it is ready to roll? I don't think so. That is a middle-management position, not an executive one. It's been a while since I drove past this area, and obviously nothing much was happening through the winter. Does anyone know if there is evidence that even the site preparation has started? Risker (talk) 22:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't have any stake in this; I just saw it pop up on my watchlist (I had changed a highway link) and it didn't look like a good addition to the article. You don't need to get any "permission" from me. --NE2 23:18, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

My Perspective on this Article
Prior to my addition, this article was poorly written and poorly referenced - it did not include any of the events associated with Park Place (the infamous marijuana grow-op bust, the purchase of Park Place by North American Acquisition Inc (NAA), the legal battle with the City of Barrie, the OMB appeal, the OMB ruling, the $1.6 million in legal costs assessed against the City of Barrie, and yes, the controversy surrounding North American Development Group, LLC's Managing Director, Terry Coughlin's public statement in which he stated on behalf of his firm, "We are proud to continue to have him represent our interests" despite his Manager having pleaded guilty to accessing 794 graphic images of child pornography).

At the end of the day, some articles about a place are going to be just that - about the place. This may be a simple function that nothing notable has ever happened at that place. However, here, we have a former park that has been mired in controversy since it changed hands several years ago, and yes, part of that controversy continues to this day to include the community of Barrie's reaction to Mr. Coughlin's very public statement. The issue of NPOV shouldn't even arise, particularly given the fact that the article quotes, verbatim, the very credible sources of both of Barrie's community newspapers, Canada's national news provider, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC News) etc. The proof that the proposed article is neutral in tone and balanced is the fact that User:Risker admits that he is unable to find any outside sources that either dispute those cited by myself, or those which provide additional neutral points of view.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck (as much as you hate to admit it) it's a duck - and this 'duck' is notable because of the controversy surrounding it.

Corn Children (talk) 16:10, 27 April 2008 (UTC)