Talk:Parma, Ohio/Archive 1

List of Mayors
Hey, does anyone have a list of Parma's mayors that can be added to the Wikipedia article on Parma?

I have a complete list of Parma's mayors that should be available in a few days. -- Mycroft.Holmes 13:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think this would make a good addition.--24.154.173.243 15:23, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

See below. -- Mycroft.Holmes 16:07, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

List of Mayors from 1928 to present
I added the information in an HTML table. It should be placed in a wiki-table.--Mycroft.Holmes 18:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Are you able to add this to the main article? Do you have a reference for this information?  I'd rather see stuf like this added than the deletion campaign by a minority.  Best, --24.154.173.243 20:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

After Unlocking
Please add this template "Mapit-US-cityscale|41.391852|-81.728502" to external links. -- Mycroft.Holmes 00:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Here's what should happen after unlocking, at least what's acceptable to myself and the majority of contributors to this article:

1) Restore economy section to include paragraphs on pet and video stores, but NOT the rant on cats, although really the comment on cats didn't bother me any. 2) Add Mycroft's full list of mayors. 3) While I have no problem with it, I think that most of us will not be miffed if the current paragraph on the Current Status and Future Outlook is removed.

This is as fair and reasonable of a compromise as you'll ever see! --140.254.69.123 15:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

PS Keep it smooth!


 * 2 and 3 sound good, but I still have a problem with the bias in the economy section. I've looked arond at many other city articles and almost none of them have this kind of npov in it, adn the ones that do mention that the company was founded there, or something to that extent. The article itself is not bad, but by providing examples it causes problems. --Wizardman 16:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Regardng the econmy section: The pet store stuff is just not necessary. It's a blatant attempt at obtaining a good google return. You can say it's not but, as a famous Clevelander used to say: You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool Mom. The video store stuff describes an issue not unique to Parma, but common to the US economy in general. I'm not sure what to say about the cat-rant other than to say what you're supposed to say when you have nothing nice to say. The Current Status / Future Outlook is an opinion (at best) and not at all encyclopedic in nature. It should be removed. The list of mayors is solid, verifyable, historical data and should be added ASAP.--Mycroft.Holmes 19:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.phd?title=Talk:Parma%2C_Ohio&action=edit&section=3


 * The economy section has been revised well-enough to make it worthy to stay, minus the cat rant. The future outlook is somewhat opinion, although there is a lot of truth to the reality that Parma has really hit some snags and there is indeed widespread disappointment in DePiero (too bad his opposition was the unpopular Lime!).  The mayor section is fine.  So, add the full list of mayors, restore some of the most recently revised economic stuff, and delete the future outlook section.  That all seems fine by me.  Mycroft seems to just have something out for the one pet store or something and to put a new spin on your own little quote, you're not fooling me on that one!  Good job on the mayor list, at least. --164.107.92.120 20:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Never heard of the joint until I read this article. --Mycroft.Holmes 21:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Then you must not really be all that familiar with Parma and Cuyahoga county. --164.107.92.120 00:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I lived in Parma for over 18 years, and yet have never heard of RMS Aquaculture or Parma Pets. Petsmart is a national chain so there is no need for that either. Never heard of Coreno or Video theatre either. (I was a longtime customer of Mr. Z though, even after the Cone Zone fire). Again the cat rant is pointless. The point is not whether I've heard of these, the point is do they strongly help or hurt the article. If you're going to add that, then why add stuff about all the pizza shops or the 3 ice cream shops on State Road? I don't add that stuff (even though Parma's way up there in pizza shops per capita) because it's not useful. In fact the stat I just put down is more useful than the bias that anon IP 172. (which I think is a Parma High computer) --Wizardman 00:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think Wizardman uses a Greenbriar Junior High computer . . . All the evidence points in that direction! Lol! :) --164.107.208.34 20:08, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * How could you have not heard of Parma Pets at least?! It's been in the city for decades! As for RMS, there was one store by ParmaTown, then one on Broadview, not to mention stores in Strongsville, Middleburg Heights, Willoughby, on online store, etc.  Not exactly small potatoes, although certainly not as widespread as PetSmart.  Maybe it is worth noting that Parma has an abundance of pizza joints and multiple ice cream places on State Road. --164.107.92.120 04:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * My bona fides: I lived on Snow Road as a child in the early sixties and went to John Muir ES until 2nd grade. I grew up in various spots around the West Side. I graduated HS on far West Side in the late seveties and went to college near Cincinnati until moving away in the very early eighties. --Mycroft.Holmes 14:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, no wonder. The two RMS stores came to Parma post 1985. I went to John Muir as well years back.  Anyway, you should see it now.  After the small fire destroyed a whole class room the school has undertaken some substantial physical expansion and improvements.  The last time I drove past it, it looked nothing like it did in the late 1980s.  Padua has also changed significantly in the recent past.  Also, since you left, they tore down the old police station and built some huge new justice center.  Cheers, --164.107.208.34 20:08, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I was attending John Muir when the fire happened. We barely got any school off!  Fortunately, as far I as I can remember, no one was injured or killed.  Perhaps the biggest fire I recall happening in Parma was around Pearl and Ridge, where some beauty school was destroyed.  And yes, I too feel that the pet store and video store information should remain, if not be expanded.  Parma used to have lots of small pet stores and video stores, but these have indeed mostly given way to the chains (most of which I like, especially PetSmart and RMS, although I've shopped at Parma Pets as well).  Parma has multiple ice cream places on State Road (Honey Hut, Doc's Shake Shoppe, Super Cream, Zero Zest, etc.), and lots of pizza places.  Parma also has a good deal of churches, too.  While the pet and video stores have largely changed, there are still plenty of non-chain pizza stores (Leonardo's, Napoleon's, etc.), as well as ice cream places.  And yes, both John Muir and Padua are/have undertaking/en significant renovations.  I'm not sure whatever happened to the old police station.  Also, is it worth having a council president list as well?  We've had some rather notorious council presidents with Ken K. making national news, but the current guy, Germana, also being rather routinely criticized in the press? Regards, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 21:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Channel 43
I spent many a Saturday afternoon watching Super Host on Channel 43. Thinking of Supe reminded me that WUAB was based in Parma for awhile. However, after reading the wiki entry, it appears that WUAB cleared out quite some time ago. Dunno if this is worth a mention or not. -- Mycroft.Holmes 01:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, Channel 43 was on Day Drive for decades (right behind Parmatown Mall). Superhost taped his spoofs in the area. swain 15:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Famous Parmans
Found these guys on IMDB.COM

Mike Mizanin (wrassler) Date of birth (location): ... 8 October 1980, Parma, Ohio, USA ... I think this guy has his own website and wiki entry.


 * Wasn't he a finalist on WWE's Tuff Enough? I heard he was on some other reality TV show as well.--64.12.116.131 02:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Clint Nageotte (baseball player) Date of birth (location): ... 25 October 1980, Parma, Ohio, USA ... His link on MLB.COM is probably the best.

Gotta be more. -- Mycroft.Holmes 00:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Ghoulardi
Any chance Ghoulardi deserves a mention here? He's the main reason many people have ever heard of Parma, Ohio. - Jmabel | Talk 18:07, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree! See the "Parma Jokes" section above. -- Mycroft.Holmes 19:09, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

History
Although I agree that the information in this section is accurate (although it should probably be edited for POV), there is undue weight on recent political developments in this section.

I believe the sections about the "Witch Hunt" and Parma's decline should be edited down, placed in their own article, or matched in depth by the content that actually pertains to Parma's place in history. For example, there is no mention of the 2003 North America blackout, which was triggered by a generating plant in Parma.


 * Is it verified that the blackout started in Parma? If so, maybe that would be worth mentioning?  Also, what about when council president Ken K. made national news after saying in regards to black people that "we just don't want them here"?  Again, that nasty chapter in Parma history did indeed make national news and had long term consequences due to legal battles between Parma and the NAACP.  Another bit of Parma news was when they wanted to build a highway straight through the city! --24.154.173.243 17:29, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * There is a Wiki on the blackout and at least one New York Times article on the racism bit, so I added these as they make national news. I'm not sure why the two incidents that for sure made national news would get deleted by some users . . .--172.162.144.116 23:04, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see this entry paint an accurate picture of Parma as a whole, rather than focus the article strictly on topics people feel passionate about. Anyone with me?

--Chromix 15:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Second! -- Mycroft.Holmes 19:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that adding the 2003 blackout would be fine, but I think that some mention of the Witch Hunt should remain, especially since efforts to create a separate article about this incident have floundered somewhat.--205.188.116.13 16:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Parma, Ohio was the fasting growing city in the United States during the 1950's, going from a population of 18,000 in 1950 to a little over 82,000 in 1960. It was a great place to grow up during that time, very much like the "Wonder Years" TV show. Great schools, a lot to do, good people.

On another note, the Witch Hunt was real. It is a fact that the real issue was corruption in city government and the county court. This is practically undisputed at this point.

A SAMPLE OF WITCH HUNT QUOTES:

PROSECUTOR MICHAEL NOLAN: DePiero and Germana “are merely using this as an excuse for, apparently, their own inaction.” Source = Joe Wagner, “Parma will remove police tax request from May 3 ballot,” Plain Dealer, B2.

INVESTIGATOR Dick DiCicco in his official report: There “was no evidence presented to” substantiate “the allegation that officers were taking turns calling in sick in order that other officers could earn overtime to maintain minimums,” “there was no actual duplicate billing” concerning officers Kuchler and Robertson as indicated in The Plain Dealer articles, and based “on the review of the above activity no specific pattern of reciprocity was detected” on the part of Officer Mekruit.

Councilwoman Stys as quoted in the Plain Dealer referred to the investigation a “sham.” - March 11, 2005

There was even an article titled "Report clears Parma police in payroll-padding probe"!

DePiero's "heads will roll" comment appeared in a newspaper article in 2003. The whole Parma's image man referring to Parma as a "fiefdom" is from an incident in which Powell Caesar accidentally sent an email intened for DePiero to the Plain Dealer (a newspaper). The parts of the email published by the Plain Dealer included Caesar referring to Parma (allegedly a city in a democratic republic) as "the fiefdom) and himself as "samurai." The combination of writing as if Parma is feudal Japan and other hyperbole statements by politicians; for example the Council President referred to the Police investigation as on par with the war in Iraq and another Parma politician referred to an incident in which some idiot threw a firecracker in his yard being as if Parma has devolved in Afganistan and that FBI needed to investigate the matter.  These ridiculous statements, which appear in various newspaper articles and on TV interviews, have made many Parma residents think of their city "leaders" as disturbing jokes.

Anyway, though, just a little bit of research has pretty much substantiated much of the information from the history statement as either fact or at least written with respectable intentions as information does exist that gives weight to the various assertions by whoever posted the paragraph on the Witch Hunt. On a related note, I've even seen cars in Parma with bumper stickers that say Parma Witch Hunt and have a witch riding a broom on them and yes, there were articles in the paper with titles like "Time to End Witch Hunt" and the like. In other words, no real bias in the history section, although maybe the second paragraph may be a bit harsh as I don't think Parma is necessarily hopeless. As the information about Parmatown and RMS indicates, there are some efforts to add new businesses to the city; as for the police department, well, they got rid of DARE (the anti-drug program), they haven't hired anybody new in years, even with multiple retirements, they didn't replace the police dog (K-9) when it died, and now have less than a 100 officers, even though a federal government report indicates that Parma should have 160 officers to truly be able to effectively protect a city of its size. The surprise is that according to the most recent World Alamanac, Parma is one of the top ten safest city's in the country even though it borders Cleveland, one of the top ten most dangerous. If Parma hired more officers, reinstated DARE, got a new K-9, etc., maybe it could be number one again? Also, Parma Heights' mayor has been pushing for regionalizing the area and has made comments especially in The Plain Dealer, which also seems to support the issue, about being willing to support Parma Heights annexation by one of its larger neighbors like Parma to integrate rescue services and the like. Parma and Parma Heights used to be one city, but separated for religious (Catholic vs. Protestant) reasons waaay back decades ago. Currently, they have the same school system and same Sun Newspaper and so the merger plan is not exactly that fantastical in the minds of politicians. Other interesting ideas from back in the day included building a highway through Parma, a gazebo (proposed by Debbie Lime), a Parma haunted house (proposed by Mark Drabik), a Parma Oktoberfest (proposed by Mark Drabik), etc. So, there are ideas out there to improve the city; a lot of people just don't trust those alleged to belong to this political machine as they're blamed for allowed the police investigation to suffer severe cost overruns, possible upwards of $200,000 only to discover that the original allegations were largely false. The best the investigators could come up with was that a couple of officers on a part time job might not have paid $217 and $203 respectively in state taxes over a five year period; I kid you not, that's it c. two hundred in only state taxes and the best part of it was that one of the guys had actually overpaid state taxes one of the five years by nearly two hundred dollars as well, in other words almost cancelling things out anyway. I looked it up, these are facts! The reports were made public, though you had to pay for him. Then, it came out that the prosecutor had actually mismatched names on the indictments and that the county prosecutor signed the documents even with errors on them, which led a lot of people to wonder how many others in Cuyahoga County have had error-laden indictments signed. . . So as not to ramble on too much, there were lots of posts about the whole matter on the parma-oh.com forum and guestbook in which residents expressed anger with the media and politicians and it got really nasty as people started to wonder how fed The Plain Dealer the misinformation in the first place. So, you had lots of name calling, revelations about people's personal lives and the like. A really dark chapter in Parma's history that the city government and police department still hasn't really recovered from.

Although I don't mind what's under History too much right now, this page seems to be vandalized more and more frequently, most likely by people from Parma. We'll have to start keepign a closer eye on this page, as the history section is somewhat subjective at this point as it is. --Wizardman 19:59, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Somewhat exaggerated as well.
 * (at least that's the opinion of the witch hunters . . .)

Nah, keep the history. 100% accurate. Everyone who actually knows anything knows that the blurb is correct.

I removed the non-NPOV stuff. -- Mycroft.Holmes 14:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Mycroft, glad to see the change. Good job on this one! No need to refer to people's thoughtful posts as "junk" whether you agree or not.  "Stuff" is indeed more fair and a move in the right direction. - WWE Raw watcher at 11:02 PM

Reverted Mycroft.Holmes vandalism and non-NPOV edits. - Mummy Returns watcher at 3:34 PM Stinko de Mayo


 * History section looks much better being divided into three paragraphs! Good job, gang!  But why not have something on the notorious incident involving Ken Kuzma (former council president), in which he said regarding blacks that "We just don't want them here."  It made national news and led to a lawsuit with the NAACP.  Pretty significant event in Parma history; almost as much of a black eye as the whole witch hunt fiasco.


 * Why don't you amend the discussion of Kuczma (sp in the text) by saying that DiPiero has publicly voiced his desire to have the police on the northern border to keep undesireables out (find it in the PD or Sun) which is a veritable "Border Patrol" long decried by the NAACP as a rotten Parma PD

practice, much denied by PPD and city hall. Also, talking about DiPiero (or is it DePiero?) courting union votes all the time when he screws city unions worse than any mayor ever???--64.12.116.131 02:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Are you from Parma, Mycraft? Why are you deleting factual information that is validated by newspaper articles on the Parma talk page and on external links?  The Witch Hunt is a pretty significant chapter in Parma history.  It made front page news for several days in a row even.  The media and politicians played it up as if there was some big scandal in the police department only for two investigations (one by a guy named DiCicco and another by detectives) to determine that the original allegations were exagerrated or just outright wrong.  Ultimately, less than a half dozen officers were disciplined for non-related issues, which just sparked citywide suspicion as those officers happened to be opponents of certain politicians.  On 19 Action News, the mayor (DePiero) called the prosecutor "the most arrogant public official."  It was pretty nasty at times.  If you read any of the posts on the old Parma forum, you'd know what I'm talking about.  Also, there were huge cost overruns as the official contract was for DiCicco to complete his investigation in a timely fashion (he took three years).  The city wanted to pay him c. $75,000, but half way through DiCicco demanded another $25,000 for a few months longer; he went on for more than just a few months.  They had similar public and behind-the-scenes financial what the hells with the prosecutor as well.  Rumors are that the whole fiasco cost the city maybe even 200 grand and left the police department a shadow of its former self.  The city tried multiple police levies that failed during this period as well.  Pretty god awful situation.  If you're a better writer, maybe you can use some of these facts from the talk page to improve on the paragraph on the witch hunt, but to keep removing information on the biggest story in Parma's recent history is just absurd.


 * While the Plain Dealer stories and following investigation can be considered modern news, it is tough for me to imagine including it in a history section just yet. Reporting on it and writing about it at a time when so much speculation still exists will make any article written about this issue appear bias in one direction or the other.  History is objective, while this story is still alive.  Let the pieces settle and then write on it (I know the investigation is over, but the force is still recovering and the administration that cracked down on any offenses that were occurring is still in office -- it would be beneficial to wait for another administration or at least a second term).  Lastly, I would like to add I recently wrote a research paper for a History of Ohio class at BW that strictly discussed the History of Parma.  It was about 7 pages long and received a 100%.  If you'd like, I can copy and paste it here for your review*** bbrochetti, resident of parma - July 12, 2006


 * Hey, I went to BW as well and graduate summa cum laude. Who did you write your paper for?  I'd like to see it!  Also, as to the Witch Hunt.  Much of the real evidence suggests that the current corrupt administration more like framed people than "cracked down" on anything.  The current force has been devastated by the Witch Hunt.  They haven't hired anybody new in years, even with all the retirements, they lost DARE, they lost their police dog (neither of which has been replaced), etc.  If anything, the administration has only made the police department smaller and less effective, which is to all of us residents' detriment! Best, --172.135.7.133 20:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I wrote the paper for Tom Sutton in the Political History of Ohio class. I'm on pace to graduate next year with a degree in Mass Communication and one in Political Science.  Just to the point about our police, my feelings are that the DePiero administration doesn't want to reduce the police force, but they had their hands tied by voters who have failed two levies.  My guess is that another levy will be on the ballots soon and it really needs to pass.  DARE is gone, but we have GREAT (Gang resistance education and training) which mirrors DARE. Either way, I really love this city and hopes this essay helps.  (PS: The only way I could think of doing this is copy and paste, so I apologize.  Also, this talk view shows my paragraphs, but the other view doesn't. sorry)

The City of Cleveland is the most distinct and recognizable city in Cuyahoga County. However, being such a large city with a rich history, Cleveland has also spawned some incredible suburbs. The largest Cleveland suburb is Parma. The City of Parma has undergone much change in its history, which spans more than 175 years, and has been home to some very recognizable figures. Population To begin, Parma’s population has been on a steady decline. At the time of the 2000 United States Census, Parma’s population was calculated to be 86, 655 (www.city-data.com, 2006). Following the trend to July, 2004, Parma’s population would dip to 82,672 (www.city-data.com, 2006). This is a far cry from Parma’s 100,000 plus population in earlier decades, but it is still enough to give the city the title of Cleveland’s largest suburb and 7th largest city in the state of Ohio (DePiero, 2006, 5). Parma grew quickly when it was incorporated as city. The Township of Parma became the City of Parma, January 1, 1931 (Kubasek, 1976, 137). Parma’s population, which at the 1820 Census measured the Township of Parma’s population to be 24, had grown to 13,899, enough to become a city (Kubasek, 1976, 208). The increase continued through the next couple decades. The US Census in 1970 determined Parma to have a population of 100,216 (Kubasek, 1976, 208). The estimated 1975 population was 109,000 (Kubasek, 1976, 211), but this is most likely the highest Parma’s population ever reached. The 1990 population was only about 87,000 (Pearson Education, 2006). Due to Parma’s size and location to Cleveland, known for its early diversity, Parma is not a very racially diverse town. At the time of the 2000 election, almost 96 % of Parma’s population was white (Pearson Education, 2006). According to the same Census breakdown by the Info Please website, the minority break-downs are as follows: 1.1% African-American, 0.1 % Native American, 1.6% Asian, 1.5% Hispanic/Latino, 0% Pacific Islander. The racial disparities actually became an issue during the 1970s and 1980s. During a council meeting during the 1970s, then Council President Ken Kuczma was quoted as saying “I do not want Negroes in the City of Parma” (Wilkerson, 1988). On December 4, 1980, Federal District Court Judge Frank Battisti ruled that Parma had violated the Fair Housing act and through policy was attempting to keep blacks from the city (AP, 1981). The judge felt that city ordinances regulating the height of structure built and amount of parking spaces needed hindered the construction of low-income housing, and he ordered that Parma must build and provide at least 133 residences to low and moderate income families (AP, 1981). By 1988, construction began as well as an advertising campaign created to entice African-American into the city (Wilkerson, 1988). In recent years, some positive change has been seen. The City of Parma has created Public Housing office that oversees both Section 8 and Public Housing within the city (City of Parma, 2006). Also, when Mayor Dean DePiero was elected in 2004, he appointed Parma’s first African-American cabinet member, Director of Communication and Community Relations Powell W. Caesar III (City of Parma, 2006). Founding Parma’s first family was the Fay family. In 1815 Benajah Fay, a Massachusetts native, came from Lewis County, New York with his wife Ruth Fay and ten children (Kubasek, 1976, 49). They settled on a division known as Township 6, Range 13, and Benajah opened an inn (Kubasek, 1976, 50). By 1817, Parma’s second settler, Conrad Countryman traveled to the Greenbriar settlement, which was the name given to the region before becoming the Township of Parma (Kubasek, 1976, 53). On March 7, 1826, it was decreed by the Board of County Commissioners: Public notice is hereby given to the qualified electors of that part of the Township of Brooklyn comprised within the original lines of Township Number 6, 13th Range of the Western Reserve that said Number 6 has been this day erected into a separate township by the name of Parma, and the said electors are hereby notified to meet at the house of Samuel Freeman in said township on the first Monday in April to elect township officers according to law (Maryanski, 2001).

Samuel Freeman was also known as the original vice president of the Cleveland Cuyahoga County Anti-Slavery Society (Kubasek, 1976, 53). The townspeople most likely took the name Parma thanks to Dr. David Long, who had recently returned from a trip to Italy and was reminded of Parma, Italy’s beauty in his travel to Greenbriar (Kubasek, 1976, 58). The new township took the first year to organize their new town. The first school district was formed in May of 1826, with two more being set aside in December. Also, a justice of the peace was elected on July 4, 1826 (Kubasek, 1976, 58). Early roads, which still exist today, were named. On the Parma – Independence border was Independence Road, now called Broadview Road, and through the center of town was Center Road, now Ridge Road (Kubasek, 1976, 60). York Road was named for settlers from New York and Pearl Road had numerous names, including the Brighton and Parma Plank Road and the Medina Wooster Pike (Kubasek, 1976, 60). One of modern Parma’s historical sites can be traced back to Parma Township. Philip and Sophia Henninger were born in Obersiltza, Germany and emigrated to the United States in 1830 (Kubasek, 1976, 64). They built a log cabin on Town Line Road, but upgraded to a stone home in 1849. The stones came from a quarry that Henninger attended on his property. The house still stands today and the some drill marks are still visible on Rockside and Olde Rockside Roads (Kubansek, 1979, 64). The Parma Area Historical Society maintains yet another Parma historical marker. The group was formed in September of 1972 and in 1980 assumed operational control of Stearns Homestead (Maryanski, 2001, 26). The land was purchased by the City of Parma with matching federal grants (Maryanski, 2001, 26). The historical 48.3 acre farmland contains broth the Earl C. Gibbs house, built 1919, and the Stearns house, built 1848 (Maryanski, 2001, 26). After 99 years of being a township, Parma made the decision to become a village. On August 14, 1924, a special committee was appointed to survey state affairs and study the benefits and disadvantages of incorporating Parma (Kubasek, 1979, 109). On November 4, 1924 an election was held to determine whether it was the will of the residents to become a village (Kubasek, 1979, 111). The measure passed. On December 15, 1924 Parma became a village and its first officials were elected. The Village of Parma had six councilmen and the first Mayor was John F. Goldenbogen (Kubasek, 1979, 111). During the first year, the Village took impressive steps in its organization. The first ordinance passed by council established the “Rules of Order for the Council of the Village of Parma” (Kubasek, 1979, 112). Ordinance No. 5 created the Village of Parma Fire Department. In August, the Village passed Ordinance No. 104 which outlined in incredible detail building codes and regulations that included measures such as no human habitation in a cellar, yard and court measurements, and even proper building heights and room sizes (Kubasek, 1979, 112). Following the birth of the Village of Parma, a developer by the name of Howard A. Stahl came to the village with a dream. The concept of a “Garden City” originated in England during the late 1800s and early 1900s (Horley, 1998, 18). A garden city was to keep “populations at or below 30,000, have green parks, comfortable homes, and recreation centers” (Horley, 1998, 18). This was Sthal’s goal when he bought land in Parma. According to Robert Horley, author of The Best Kept Secrets of Parma, the Garden City, both Stahl and the Van Swerington brothers ascribed to the Garden City philosophy (p. 21). The two developers had offices close by in Coventry and were most likely acquaintances. The Van Sweringtons were very influential in developing Shaker Heights, and many Shaker streets were named after the streets in English Garden cities (Horley, 1998, 21). Stahl borrowed some of the Van Sweringtons’ ideas and street names, thus strangely uniting Shaker Heights and Parma. H.A. Stahl laid out “Parma Circle,” a cluster of streets that from overhead resemble a spoked wheel and stretched from just south of the current Parmatown Mall to Snow Road, and from W. 54th to Westminster Dr (Horley, 1998, 21). His plans included a very modern Ridgewood Golf course, which today is still an oft-played course. Sadly, due to the Great Depression, Stahl’s could not complete his vision, but several other developers took on Stahl’s dream and developed on his Parma Circle streets (Horley, 1998, 31). Some Parma streets that share names with Shaker Heights: Park Drive, South Park Boulevard, Canterbury Road, as well as Cambridge, Eaton, Kenmore, Kenyon, Keystone, and Torrington (Horley, 1998, 32). Finally, Parma reached city-hood in 1931. On December 1, 1930, the Secretary of State of the State of Ohio declared that based on the 1930 census, 13,899, the Village of Parma would be declared a city exactly 30 days from his proclamation: January 1, 1930 (Kubasek, 1976, 137). At its incorporation, the City of Parma had just one major manufacturer, The Western Stamping and Manufacturing Co., and public transportation consisted of just one dinky line and one bus line (Kubasek, 1976, 137). The first city government included numerous elected posts, including mayor, president of council, auditor (includes clerk of council), treasurer, solicitor, council at large, four ward councilmen, justice of the peace, and a constable (Kubasek, 1976, 139). This government faced issues brought on by the Great Depression, and many residents sought annexation with Cleveland as relief from its woes (Maryanski, 2001). Parma decided to remain independent, and before long, expanded quickly. Major Corporations and Organizations Although founded with only one major corporation, Parma is now home to a handful of major businesses that compliment an array of small, local-owned businesses. Parma seemingly has a “ma and pa” pizza shop on every other corner. Meanwhile, the city is also home to several distinct small businesses that have a regional notoriety. One such small business that had both regional and national recognition was Parma Pierogies. The restaurant was even a stop for President Clinton when he came to town (Cleveland.com, 2006). Unfortunately, the company grew too quickly for the owner and Parma Pierogies went out of business. Before its demise in the late 1990s, Parma Pierogies had managed to open a second store in Parma’s largest shopping complex, Parmatown Mall. Parmatown Shopping Center was started in 1955 with the construction of retail strip at Ridge and Ridgewood Drive (Maryanski, 2001, 19). Even as initial construction was underway, plans for Parmatown grew. By 1968, the shopping center had over 800,000 square feet of enclosed shopping area plus the exterior 150,000 square foot strip (Maryanski, 2001, 19). In 1969, a four-story medical arts building was erected (Maryanski, 2001, 19). Today, the mall encompasses over 1 million square feet and has recently undergone a renovation (Maryanski, 2001, 19). Parma’s largest employer is General Motors. The GM plant was built on what is now Chevrolet Boulevard in 1947 (Maryanski, 2001, 30). The plant originally produced metal stampings and PowerGlide transmissions (Maryanski, 2001, 30). It has gone through several changes during its 59 year history, including a unification of two different plants in 1987 and a change to Metal Fabrication in 1994 (Maryanski, 2001, 30). Besides being important economically to Parma, GM has become a part of the community. It sponsors numerous community events such as charity runs, school events, and the Annual Parma Rib’n’Rock. In his 2006 State of the City, Mayor DePiero acknowledged that the Parma GM plant was “spared” from General Motors’ plant closures, and thankfully so based on the major role the plant plays in everyday Parma life (p. 5). Finally, Parma is proud to have its own first-class hospital. The hospital celebrated its 40th anniversary in 2001 (Maryanski, 2001, 10). Besides celebrating its 40th birthday, Parma Hospital received much praise in the early 21st century, making the Top 100 Hosptials in America list by HCIA and the Health Network (Maryanski, 2001, 10). It also was listed as one of the 100 Most Wired Hospitals in the United States and was a Better Business Bureau Service Vision award winner (Maryanski, 2001, 10). Famous Parmians Parma was home to many that have shared the national spotlight. According to former Mayor James Day in his book Parma Day, Parma was home to the 1963 Miss Teen USA, Judy Ann Adams as well as the Cleveland famous Ernie Anderson, AKA Ghoulardi (p. 101). Captain James A. Lovell Jr., an Apollo 13 astronaut, spent parts of his childhood growing up in Parma’s north end (Day, 2005, 104). Actor Alan Ruck of Ferris Buehler’s Day Off and ABC’s Spin City was a Parma Senior High School graduate. Parma has also produced numerous sports stars, including former Indians pitcher Mike Garcia, 1944 Heisman Trophy winner Les Horvath, Minnesota Twins great Rich Rollins, Buffalo Sabre Brian Holzinger, and Columbus Blue Jacket Dan Fritsche (Day, 2005, 104-150). Future Parma, as with many inner-ring suburbs, is starting to feel the effects of the urban flight that helped populate it. More and more people are retreating west to developing cities such as Medina and Brunswick. An aging population and an aging infrastructure are issues that will face both the current and future administrations. However, Parma is in a unique position to attract new residents and businesses. In 2005, several new businesses came to Parma, including Dick’s Sporting Goods, Starbucks and Graftech, who moved their international headquarters to Parma (DePiero, 2006, 3). Almost 50 new homes were in the process of being built in the north end of Parma, the oldest section of the city; it has been over 20 years since new homes were built in this area of the city (DePiero, 2006, 3). Along with new businesses, new residents too have reason to move to the city. Parma offers two healthcare options, Parma Hospital and Kaiser Permanente, and was ranked by the FBI as one of the safest cities in the nation based on its size. The Parma City School District is a large district that is on the rise, and higher education is too well represented in the city through Cuyahoga Community College’s Western campus and a Bryant and Stratton satellite campus. Thanks to H.A. Stahl, Parma has a fine golf course to compliment its numerous parks. The Metroparks have also entered Parma, agreeing to take control of the West Creek Preserve in the Southern portion of the city. In all, Parma has more to offer than most other suburbs and will use this to thrive in future years. References Associated Press. (1981, January 2). Ohio Ruling Buoys Housing Bias Foes. The New York Times. Retrieved May 29, 2006 from www.nytimes.com City of Parma (2006). Official City Website. www.cityofparma-oh.gov. Cleveland.com (2006). Our Heritage with the Plain Dealer. Retrieved June 5, 2006 from http://www.cleveland.com/heritage/index.ssf?/heritage/more/polish/pierogi.html. Day, James W. (2005). Parma Day. Published by James Day: United States. DePiero, Dean (2006). State of the City of Parma Address. Retrieved June 2, 2006 from www.cityofparma-oh.gov. Horley, Robert (1998). The Best Kept Secrets of Parma, The Garden City. Cowgill Printing Company: United States. Kubasek, Ernest R. (1976). The History of Parma…a Township…a Village…a City. Published by Ernest Kubasek and Bernard Survoy: Cleveland, OH. Maryanski, Dorothy (2001). “Parma Ohio: The Family City 1826-2001” Commemorative Souvenir Book. Cowgill Printing Company: United States. Pearson Education (2006). Quickfacts: City of Parma. Retrieved May 29, 2006 from www.infoplease.com/us/census/data/ohio/parma/ Wilkerson, Isabel. (1988, October 30). Integration Proves Elusive in an Ohio Suburb. The New York Times. Retrieved May 29, 2006 from www.nytimes.com www.city-data.com (2006). City of Parma, OH. Retrieved June 1, 2006 from www.city-data.com/city/Parma-Ohio.html --User:Bbrochetti, 11:08, July 20, 2006


 * I had Tom Sutton for Introduction to Political Science at BW some time ago. Good guy overall, I thought.  Did he require your class to get the New York Times as well?  Anyway, I think some of this information would be useful and worthwhile on the main page (do others agree?), but just watch out for the fanatical deletion artists who seem to plague this article!  Lol!  Best, --24.154.173.243 20:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the comments, and I had Sutton for Intro to Poly Sci my freshmen year, and yep, still had to buy the NY Times. lol***


 * I also had Mattern, Chae, and Krutky for other political science classes. Are you familiar with them?--172.128.197.252 19:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * wow, this talk section is already considered too long as a whole article. cool. Still, you writing that as a B-W PoliSci paper makes me anxious for whatever I'll get to do in the fall. (Have no idea what teacher I'm getting for my first ps class, but i had mattern as an advisor and burke as the guy that did my schedule at first) --Wizardman 03:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Since so much of the history focuses on politics, perhaps it would be worth having something about how the Filegate scandal involving former councilman Stover added another black eye to Parma's image at least locally if not throughout the state and possibly beyond? Keep it smooth!--140.254.69.123 17:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, I was just reading this a bit more and for the first time in a while. Wow...did it get even more bias.  "The Future of Parma" is a disgusting aspect to the article.  Additionally, the DePiero 2003 comments referenced in the above talk section by I believe MyCraft is ridicoulous.  For someone who knows so much about Parma, I would've expected them to know that DePiero took office in 2004.  Additionally, the Samuri email is made to sound so evil when in reality is was part of McIntire's Plain Dealer column that exposes some of the humerous or unimportant aspects of local politics (like the Sun Post's "Muckracker" section). Someone is really reaching for accrediation when they reference that...***


 * Ummmm ... I'd suggest that you read the history just a little bit more closely. My edits to this article have been generic bits of encylopedic information and the continual removal of irrelevant information by a single annonymous user with an obvious grudge against the City. -- Mycroft.Holmes 17:57, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think Mycroft added what Bbrocheti suggested. In any case, I have no qualms about removing the Future of Parma aspect, which was added by a fellow anonymous user (NOT ME!) and then contextualized much better by someone else.  As for DePiero's comments, yes, he made them in 2003 BEFORE he was in office, but while he was the heavily favored candidate and already a prominent Parma politician with clear name recognition.  The quote is part of his record or history, even if utterred while campaigning.  As for the samurai email, that really did make the administration look like a joke.  There was even a printed letter to the editor shortly after by a female Parma resident (not me, I'm a male!) who mocked city hall as a result and lots of discussion on Parma message boards about it.  Whether it started out as funny or nut, it became more serious to regular residents who thought city hall was arrogant or out of touch with reality.  You (not Mycroft, guy before you) seem to be spinning here . . .--24.154.173.243 20:43, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Never thought of it, sounds a bit pro-administration though, I agree. However, the report I wrote on the  history of Parma, in my opinion, is very unbiased and talks about the negative, like the NAACP case against Parma, while giving the straight facts on incorporation and other historical events.  It is still printed above and I would hope that at least parts of it would be considered to be put into the history section.  I've spent my whole life growing up in this city, and I truly love it.  To have only the negative aspects hightlighted hurts.  I know its long, but I have all my sources listed.  I have respect for the peer review aspect of Wikipedia and refuse to just post it in the history section.  If My Croft or some ot the other heavy contributors could review, I'd really appreciate it. - bbrochetti***


 * I'm all for you incorporating aspects of your paper into this article. Just try to insert some of it yourself without damaging the integrity of the current article and there will be plenty of us who will help edit, but I encourage you to take the initiative of inserting the relevant paragraphs and sentences into the article yourself first.  Best, --Mycroft.Holmz 17:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Still quite POV
I've added POV-section. "Witch hunt" in Wikipedia's narrative voice? "Known as 'the Good Old Boys' or the 'Parma Machine'" with no attribution? "Henry VIII-like"? This is not neutral writing. And "For more on the Witch Hunt, see the discussion page" is absolutely out of line. We do not refer from articles into discussions: please see Avoid self-references. The lack of a physical link does not change the matter.

I'd rather see this fixed than removed&mdash;it sounds like a valid topic&mdash;but if no one has fixed it in the next week or so, I will feel free to simply remove it. - Jmabel | Talk 18:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The mayor, Dean DePiero, was quoted in the Cleveland Plain Dealer for saying that "heads will roll" and such. Henry VIII is known for having two of his wives beheaded.  Therefore, making comments about heads rolling is a Henry VIII-like statement and is not a POV issue.

Moon Over Parma
After having lived away from Cleveland for many years, the original theme song of Drew Carey's TV show brought back lots of memories. Again, not sure if Drew, the show, and the song deserve a mention, but I think they do. -- Mycroft.Holmes 02:01, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Parma edit debate
Hi, Curps. When and how will we know when the dispute is resolved? I am from Parma and believe whole-heartedly that the information being deleted my Mycroft.Holmes is objective and not adverstising. People in Parma honestly do consider the many pet stores an important and interesting part of our businesses and while the Witch Hunt has divided people at various times, it is of extreme importance to recent events concerning the police, politics, taxes, etc. The initial fury associated with the early articles led to such harassment of the former safety director and chief of police that they even resigned. Mycroft seems to be making deletions based on his/her personal stance on either the whole matter or on his feelings about select businesses. A city's history and economy are very important and relevant. Cleveland's page has sections on history and economy. Maybe the segments could be better written or have more references included or expanded on, but they should not just be unilaterally deleted by one user when a number of users (not just me) has contributed to these sections and especially when myself and others have tried to compromise by writing the segments in better contexts. If you look over much of the Parma talk page, you'll see that those who support keeping the material have provided a lot more reasons and references than Mycroft.Holmes who just blanket labels the edits without even acknowledging his/her rationale and if he even borthered to read others reasonging. Thank you for your time, help, and efforts. (sorry, but I don't know how to sign posts)

POSSIBLE SOLUTION: Permanently ban Mycroft.Holmes for repeated vandalism and subjectivity.


 * Sounds reasonable at least maybe to him/her from making his/her unreasonable deletions. After reviewing the various versions of the Parma page. Mycroft does indeed seem to remove objective and interesting factual information for no respectable reason, which makes one think that Mycroft is either one of or a supporter of the so-called witch hunters and has some unusual bias against RMS as well. That first history paragraph that Mycroft added was fine, but the deletions and comments on the talk page and history are just not constructive or helpful in any way. Most of Mycroft's "contributions" are either vandalism or offensive. So, I think the current format looks nice. My only suggestion would be maybe to add some of these references made above on this talk page into the history to further back up all the accurate points about the Blue Scare. I'm not sure what Mycroft's real motivations are, of if this is just a kid having fun, but hopefully he/she is a reasonable adult and can make more mature contributions in the future. That's my two cents, for now. Anyone watching WWE Raw tonight? - a concerned Parma resident and objective Wikipedia editor on 3:46 PM


 * An objective Wikipedia editor? Ha! A truly committed and objective Wiki-editor would not hide behind an IP address, but would instead create a user login and proudly stand behind his comments by signing his posts. -- Chrome Ball Collector 19:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * If you were from Parma, then you would know that the Witch Hunters actually target their opponents. Have you ever seen Oliver Stone's Alexander?  There's a scene where someone says something against Alexander and Alexander challenges, "Who said that?  Make your accusations public, coward."  And the anonymous critic shoots back, "Why, so you can have me killed?"  - Diet A&W Root Beer drinker 6:55 PM


 * And while I'm on the subject: don't change or remove the comments of another user. If you do so, any changes made in conjunction with the attempted censorship are null-and-void. Don't silence your opponents, out-argue them. Just add your new comments and sign them. Comments made by others are off-limits. Censorship is the last refuge of the ignorant. -- Chrome Ball Collector 19:59, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Only trying to remove unconstructive criticisms that don't really add to the discussion. - Diet A&W Root Beer drinker 6:56 PM


 * Your comment is disingenuous at best. Your edits either modified the meaning or completely expunged comments which disagreed with your POV. It's not your job, as an "objective Wikipedia editor", to determine which talk page comments add to the discussion. Unless the comments in question are blatantly obscene or offensive they are OFF-LIMITS. And no, the word "junk" is not offensive. -- Mycroft.Holmes 23:58, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the other posters' edits just made things more family friendly and accurate. And I can see how calling someone's contributions "junk" would be insulting, when it's really just a matter of your subjective opinion being in a disagreement.- WWE Raw watcher at 11:02 PM

ANOTHER POSSIBLE SUGGESTION: Have the guts to create a user login and sign your posts. -- White-Sox-4-Evah 19:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Two earlier comments have suggested that the "scandal diatribe" added under the history section was both "subjective" and "exaggerated". Neither adjective should be applied to information within the Wiki. -- Chrome Ball Collector 19:49, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * How is something backed up by objective facts and numerous references available all over the talk page, the internet, newspaper articles, official reports, etc. "subjective"? Just labeling something "subjective" or "exaggerated" without providing any factual evidence to prove these designations does not make it so. - Diet A&W Root Beer drinker 6:59 PM

ANOTHER POSSIBLE SOLUTION: This page should be semi-protected, allowing only registered users to make changes. From what I can see, one beligerent of this edit war signs all posts, adds interesting and verifiable information, and has removed only information that others have considered to be non-NPOV. The other combatant uses all the wiki-edit tricks in the wiki-book to obsfuscate, confuse, and censor his opponents and remain un-bannable. -- Captain Barnaby Jingle-Ling 20:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Not the case at all; from what I see the multi-ip users contribute factual information backed up by numerous references, whereas Mycroft.Holmes seems to just delete information without providing actual counter evidence, because he/she perceives (based on God knows what) some kind of unverifiable issue with the information. And sorry, but idiocy just about should be censored. Mycroft's first paragraph in the history section was a fine contribution; his/her efforts to censor the truth surrounding a major incident in the city's history is outlandish, unless if he/she has a hidden agenda at work.  Similarly, the interesting material on the city's economy is also useful and relevant to people interested in Parma.  I'm not saying that the material can't be written better, or that even more references could be included, but to outright blanket delete any addition not made by one user (Mycroft.Holmes) is not really fair or just as one gets the sense that regardless of what a majority of other visitors to this site think, as long as Mycroft.Holmes disagrees with you God, er Mycroft will censor your contributions and confuse and obfuscate so as to get us into this so-called edit war.  Allowing only registered users to make changes would be idiotic as well, because non-registered users who aren't even involved in the edit war might have good material to contribute and would be unfairly punished as a result.  You might think that everyone should just register.  Well, as others have posted, the less information people put out about themselves on the internet, the better.  WAAAY too much in the way of identity theft has been going on lately and regardless of how secure Wikipedia may be, that doesn't mean that people are 100% safe from personal attacks.  Best regards, a - Diet A&W Root Beer drinker at 7:07 PM


 * An interesting (and I'm sure intended) side-effect of being 100% safe from personal attacks, is that you are nearly 100% safe from banning. It leaves you free to say and suggest whatever you please, including the suggestion to Sysops that that a truly objective editor be permanently banned, without being exposed to possible banning yourself. I *would* say it's a less-than-courageous way to wiki, but I'm afraid that I might offend someone. -- Mycroft.Holmes 00:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I changed the title for this topic. Calling a dispute between legitimate contributors and someone with a deletion fetish a "war" is insulting to every soldier who has ever fought in or is fighting in a war and its the kind of Parma city hall-like hyperbole, exaggeration, etc. that just shifts this whole matter from a discussion to a circus.  I mean, really, "beligerent of this edit war"?!  Give me a break, children.  Lol!  I think we can discuss things like adults, as seems to be what the Root Beer guy and some others want to do without delving into ridiculousness. - WWE Raw watcher at 11:09 PM


 * C'mon Mr. 172. You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool Mom! (Don't forget we can see your IP address.) You've delved into the realm of the absurd. I didn't dub this topic a "war" ... you did! So far you've tried censorship, confusion, and distraction to get your two "fetishes" (i.e. small-town politics and pets) mentioned on this page. My only fetish is to see that this page adhere to the Wiki NPOV ideal. -- Mycroft.Holmes 13:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * C'mon Mr. Holmes. You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool Mom! (Don't forget we can see your IP address.) You've delved into the realm of the absurd. I didn't dub this topic a "war" ... Curps did! So far you've tried censorship, confusion, and distraction to get your two "fetishes" (i.e. deletion of topics relating to small-town politics and pets) mentioned on this page. My only fetish is to see that this page adhere to the Wiki NPOV ideal. -- 11:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Got fooled by the copy-catting of my comments above. Maybe you *can* fool Mom after all. Got an edit conflict as I attempted to revert my changes. Btw ... insulting sysops is no way to get them on your side! -- Mycroft.Holmes 16:01, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * sysops? Who or what is that? 12:05 PM


 * Systems operator. Anyway, why is Mycroft so mean to other editors?  As a neutral, third party, non-Parma resident, I have no problems with what's under economy and history.  If you (MyCroft), think that this material is suspect, then reword it or do research or something, but don't just delete contributions that are documented here and on the main page with links, quotes, etc.  It seems that 172 and others tried compromising on the pet store section, by re-wording and additions to make the section appear more relevant.  I think it's time you compromise as well.  Let's have a discussion, rather than a debate, anyway.  Too much name calling.  Have a nice day!--164.107.208.43 16:44, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The most reasonable response yet from 164.107! And I don't think anyone is trying to insults Curps by mentioning that "war" is a bit extreme.  We should all be able to settle something like this like adults, withought referring to people as "beligerents" or falsely accusing people of making insults.  The best solution would be to allow Mycroft to add content, but not to delete.  Let one of the other mods delete material, since the whole issue seems to be about Mycroft's deletions anyway.  The economy and history sections are relevant and informative.  Maybe add a few rerefences to increase the objectivity or for the Economy section, maybe note other famous Parma business such as the old Parma Pierogies, which a president even visited.  The pet store section could be reworded to note the changing face of Parma, i.e. from small businesses like Parma pets to chain stores like RMS, PetSmart, etc.  I think there is a constructive and creative way to solve this dispute.  172 and others seem willing to compromise; now Mycroft and his alter egos need to as well.  If not, then, yet Mycroft should be banned, but hopefully this person is more reasonable than that and can knock of the childish antics like deleting talk page posts.  Best of luck and I hope this helps!--128.146.115.214 19:02, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * This all looks acceptable to me and for my part, I'll do that signature stamp thingy as well. The first and second paragraphs in the history are the most objective and are backed up by references, the second paragraph even more so than the first.  The third paragraph, which I did not write, does not seem to have references.  For that section, maybe we could put a "Needs citations" or something by it or reword it further.  I am not opposed to incorporating some of the facts brought up in this discussion into the actual paragraph on the Witch Hunt.  I am also okay with additions made to the Economy section that would discuss other Parma businesses or that notes the changing nature of the economy and appearance of the city from small business, some of which still exist, to the chain stores of larger corporations.  Perhaps, wording could be "Even pet stores illustrate this change.  For example . . ." and then then comments on RMS and PetSmart.  As for actual deletions, we could always vote or something, but there are ways that this good and helpful material can and should stay on the page.  And, as long as Mycroft doesn't play deletion tactics, I won't either.  Best, --172.144.54.195 19:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I too agree that this all sounds like the best solution yet: no more deletions from Mycroft, more references and citations, and placing the existing material in a better context. Well done, guys! :) --72.196.131.112 03:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The only comments I have reverted have been those which *also* changed earlier comments made by others. I have never changed, edited, or redacted the comments of any user added in a "stand-alone" mode. If the "objective Wikipedia editor" deisres his comments to be left unreverted, add and sign your posts, and keep your mitts off the posts of others. -- Mycroft.Holmes 20:22, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I thought that blatantly insulting posts like "junk" could fall in the offensive category and therefore be subject to removal? - Diet A&W Root Beer drinker 6:56 PM


 * Dang! You find the word "junk" offensive? Oy! -- Mycroft.Holmes 23:42, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm . . . "Oy," huh? So, is Myrcroft Herbrew then? Just out of curiosity, what is the origin of your name? -MSNBC watcher at 11:07 AOM


 * Yo! :) - WWE Raw watcher at 11:02 PM

General Response to Annony and Request for Article Semi-Protection
The fact that Mom & Pop businesses are dying in order to make way for larger companies is not unique to Parma. People have been complaining about Wal-Mart (especially in the rural South) since the 80's In fact, this is not even a problen unique to our time. In the 30's and 40's, supermarkets like A & P were considered the scourge of the local grocer and an evil that had to be stopped. I'm sure with a little constructive Googling, even earlier examples could be found.

Regarding the pet store "war": pet stores are not unique to Parma. As far as I have been able to determine, it's a backhanded attempt to get Google link. When "RMS Aquaculture" was in the article, a Google for "Aquaculture" showed the Wikiwpedia article first. That's a Wiki-no-no I'd wager.

Added to all this is the fact that the the "person" who keeps adding the questionable material has remained steadfastly annonymous. In addition, that same person uses threats of permanent bannage to threaten other editors. My general rule of thumb is that questionable material added by an annoymous user is subject to summary deletion. I don't thnk that's a bad or an unfair guideline. I'll usually try to to a little reasearch to check out the addition, but if I don't have time and it smells a little funny, into the garbage it goes!

To any sysops who might watching, I would respectfully request the this page be changed from protected to semi-protected status. If you look at the history of this page, you'll see that the article was extremely quiet while it was semi-protected. When the page is open, Annony will usually telegraph a new outbreak of hostilities by vandalizing my user page just to see if I'm watching.

I believe if you check my other edits, you'll find that that they are factual, well-written, and completely "under control". -- Mycroft.Holmes 13:20, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I wholeheartedly disagree. I know for a fact that a good deal of what you delete on the Parma page is NOT from the same person. Moreover, as for the pet store comments they do preference any specific store.  There are no "shop here" style comments; in fact, multiple stores are mentioned in passing.  Even if the trend is not unique to Parma, it fits with a larger theme of the article in that Parma has changed noticeable over the past few decades:

1. Parma Heights broke off of a Parma (supposedly for religious reasons) 2. Parma's population went from over 100,000 to now being in the low 80,000s 3. Parma's police force had over 100 officers, but now has around 80 (paralleling the population trend); Parma's police force has also cancelled DARE and never replaced its K9 unit 4. Parma's visual make up in the way of smaller stores has given way to the chains

Anyway, a lot of us anonymous users who are hesitant to register because of identity theft fears, personal attacks, etc., still make worthwhile contributions. I usually look for grammar errors or typos in articles and I care about Parma because I lived there for nearly 15 years. So, I think protecting the page is pointless and that the economic information is 100% acceptable and reasonable. Best, --24.154.173.243 15:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Parma Jokes
When I was growing up in Cleveland, Parma was the butt of a number of jokes. I'm not sure how sensibilities are in this ultra-sensitive time, but I think a mention of the jokes (e.g. White Socks and Pink Flamingos) and jokesters (e.g. Ghoulardi, The Ghoul, Houlihan & Big Chuck) are worth a mention. I was never offended by them during my time in Parma and the West Side, but that was a loooooooong time ago. If these are now considered outre by Parmans and Clevelanders, we can leave it out. -- Mycroft.Holmes 01:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I've added a small citation linking to three movie hosts (the Ghoulardi page here is pretty good). Having grown up in Parma, I do think it's important to mention, as to this day those jokes still shade the opinion of a lot of people in Northeast Ohio on the city. swain 15:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I moved this item to the section on suspected Parma racism as it seems to fit better there and flow into the existing point better. Cheers, --172.147.53.196 23:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think there's an incongruity there now, because it flows from jokes of the local movie hosts to the New York Times reporting on the city... but I agree that putting it at the end wasn't ideal either. Perhaps this is best dealt with as a small subsection; or working it into the city's history where the ethnic makeup and culture of the city (think the movie Pleasantville and you're in Parma) led to it being the target of satire. swain 01:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Parma jokes = racism? Puh-leeze! I created a section called "References in Popular Culture" and moved the jokes there. -- Mycroft.Holmes 11:10, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * First off, I'm okay with the change, but since when can ethnic jokes NOT equal a form of racism?! Puh-leeze!!  Plus, truth be told, poking fun at Parma does to some extent fit with its negative image and ties into its war with the NAACP. --172.134.152.199 13:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sigh. I'm sorry to disagree, but jokes about white socks, chrome balls and pink flamingoes just doesn't set off my racism alarm! -- Mycroft.Holmes 14:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * ROO ROO ROO, it sets off mine and fits with the racist stereotype of Parma being a patchwork of only European ethncities. --164.107.208.43 16:55, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That's perfect. Well done. swain 14:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Pet Stores
Also, the RMS Aquaculture paragraph is, for the most part, just advertising. It is not a "notable business" in Parma, but merely one of dozens, if not hundreds of businesses in the city.

I just removed the ad for the 2nd time -- Mycroft.Holmes 16:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

And I'll keep putting it back as it is a notable business as it is unique amongst the city's many pet stores. It's not a chain along the lines of Pet Supplies Plus which exist in God knows how many cities. What I might suggest as a possible compromise would be, if you know how to do it, because I don't, to start an article on RMS Aquaculture, which can have the information and maybe we can just have a heading on "Parma Businesses", without having the history of the place on this page. Considering that Coke, Pepsi, and other companies have whole articles devoted to them, I see no reason not to have one for this business as well. The paragraph is written matter of factly and does not say anything like, "Wow, great deals at RMS!" If you want to be even more objective, maybe we can mention that there is also a Parma Pets that specializes in reptiles. If you are simply against the store, then that's not a valid reason to delete posts on it. I've lived in Parma for many years and think that the whole changing face of Parma pet stores is something that interests many residents and I see nothing wrong with people curious about a city having access to the city's business information. Again, I would be agreeable to a separate article being formed on RMS and there being a new heading here on Parma Businesses under which we just list those that us residents actually consider noteworthy.


 * Parma Pets is a noteworthy business since it's been around for 40 years.

Fair enough; so I added a note on Parma Pets as well.


 * Well, I'm new to this Wikipedia thing, but saw it on the Colbert Report and am from Parma, so thought I'd give it a shot. Anyway, I looked over some of these edit debates and reverts concerning the pet stores and economies and tried to write it in a manner that better links the two paragraphs in the ecnomic section.  Sorry, if my writing ability is not the best, but I think is a start and will make that section work better and more logical.  Keep it smooth!--140.254.69.123 17:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with you on this one; your edit could maybe be worded better, but it is relevant and logical and fits and above all is necessary. I'm keeping it smooth for ya, friend!--172.130.22.221 01:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Removed junk that has been continuously reverted by a number of other independent editors -- 65.124.89.82 02:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Restored material continuously vandalized by a cabal of questionable contributors and edited the section to make it more obviously relevant and better worded. --172.128.34.95 04:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Mycroft, well, at least you make an attempt to give a justified reason for reverts. The other goof just deletes stuff for giggles, insults the other contributors, and spells words wrong, perhaps for some kind of unsuccesful comedic effect or something.  Anyway, my main goal with all of that is to make the article 1) more interesting to read; 2) flow better; etc.  I think that it is relevant to indicate how a city has transformed over time.  Maybe, you could say something to the effect of "As in many large suburbs across America . . ." and then link to an article that covers whatever you think to be not unique.  The references, however, are to specific and well-known stores that existed or now exist in the city.  I do not work at any of these stores and so I'm not promoting them.  I lived most of my life in Parma and do think that these are all significant enough to mention.  I'm not opposed to wording things better, but blanket deletions somehow just feel too simple and like "giving up" rather than working to improve or compromise.  Take care, --152.163.100.73 01:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Good call and I generally agree with you. Here's my take on the new material under economy:

1) it isn't offensive 2)  it isn't biased, i.e. it does not say "Shop here!" or even contain links, etc. 3) it mentions stores specific to Parma that residents might argue are part of the cities history 4)  it's factual 5) it's not overly long; a few short paragraphs is hardly anything anyone should get their panties in a bunch over 6)  it actually connects with the first sentence of the economic information and transitions to the history section etc. etc. etc.

The positives to the material or at least justifications for why it's not a big deal to leave it up so as to avoid a revert dispute are far more numerous than the so far either weak or non-existant claims to the negative. At least Mycroft makes an attempt to justify some of his (her?) deletions, but 15.whatever just seems to delete stuff for giggles and appears to be known for vandalizing other pages. Those of us who like the economic information have at least contributed rather extensively to this article and are willing to discuss the matter in a civil and proofread manner. We cannot take seriously goofoffs who can't even spell words like "junk" correctly!? Cheers, --24.154.173.243 21:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Possible POV fork
As I see there's been some discussion about removing the text pertaining to the "Witch Hunt," I thought I would point out, to those who do not know, that an article has been created on The Parma Witch Hunt. I first got involved with the article because it was a blatant copyvio from another site, and then I learned that its entire text (following the out-of-process removal of the copyrighted text) was copied verbatum from a section of this article, namely from the portion of the history section on the "Witch Hunt." The text is extremely biased, and seems to me to be nothing more than an attack page. The chief author (an anon on a dynamic IP who is next to impossible to contact) has provided an, in my opinion, incredulous reason for the article's existence: "The point is to have a basis for an article that can be expanded later, so as not to have too much information on the regular Parma page." Now, I personally believe the article to be a POV fork, especially given that the text is disputed here, but before bringing the issue to AfD I would like some input from the contributors to this article as to whether The Parma Witch Hunt is a real, notable, verifiable event (I cannot find a singe hit on Google), and as to whether having this as an independent page could potentially lead to a comprehensive, unbiased account of the event. Otherwise, I think the article should be deleted, regardless of whether or not it infringes upon any copyrights. AmiDaniel (talk) 19:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The text is not biased at all and is 100% accurate. Only a Witch Hunter would actually claim bias there . . . And I don't think it's meant as an attack at all, but just an attempt to summarize one of the darkest chapter's in Parma's history.  I think the best solution would be for a more skilled writer to incorporate the many facts on this talk page that cite newspaper articles and the like into this section.  The Witch Hunt is just one name for the event, others have called it the Blue Scare, but some have even spotted cars in Parma with Parma Witch Hunt bumper stickers!  Personally, I think that the best solution could be for the current information to remain on the Parma page and that maybe the separate article isn't necessary.  A small paragraph like we have on the city's history is fine by me.--205.188.116.13 22:44, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I cleaned it all up and added the various references and links found here and on the web. Debate should be over now.  :) --64.12.116.131 23:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Copied from Talk:The Parma Witch Hunt: I, as a relative outsider, still find the text quite remarkably biased--even the title implicitly states a bias. Note that even the article on Senator Joseph McCarthy no where states that "McCarthy went on a witch hunt," despite the fact that his Communist blacklisting is frequently refered to as a witch hunt. I might also add that simply sourcing bias does not eliminate bias, and using weasel words like "To many, Drabik was a great councilman!" does not make it any less biased either. I personally feel that this article is a POV fork and would like to suggest that it be deleted and/or converted into a redirect to Parma, Ohio, as even if the bias is removed, the topic is still not notable enough (based upon the sources you provided) to warrant an individual article. If we can't reach any agreement on the matter, then I'll list this at WP:AfD and try to gain some community consensus.

On another note, I would like to stress yet again that I find your lack of etiquette quite frustrating, beginning first with your repeated removal of copyvio notices despite the messages I left asking that you stop and despite the text of the notice that explicitly stated not to edit the page. Secondly, you have now removed the tags from the article indicating that the factual accuracy and neutrality of the article is disputed without first contacting me and although the matter is still disputed (and not only by myself I might add). While I'm not going to restore them myself, I strongly encourage you to return them to their original location, as there is obviously still a dispute. Lastly, I really wish that you would register for an account as contacting you is pretty much impossible since you're on a shared IP, and it's difficult for me to tell who is saying what. Registering takes only three seconds, all you have to provide is a username and a password, and it will conceal your IP address (which will actually provide you more anonymity, not less).

Again, I hope you'll take my suggestions into consideration, and I hope you at least recognize why I feel the article should simply be merged back into Parma, Ohio. Thanks. AmiDaniel (talk) 00:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't say whether this section of the article's biased or not, primarily becuase this is the first I've ever heard of a "Witch Hunt" or other, which is surprising since I'm from Parma. Either way, I have the witch Hunt article proposed as a deletion only becuase it's already on this article. There is definitely problems with this article though. --Wizardman 22:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Since the chief contributor conceded that the article was a fork and thus should simply be merged back into the current article, I've converted it into a redirect. I've also added back the TotallyDisputed-section tags to the section in question as it's quite clear there are still questions being raised about both the neutrality and the factuality of the section not only by me, but also by WizardMan and Chromix. I don't live in Parma and have not heard of the "Witch Hunt," and running a google search returns, as I said, 0 hits. The only sources cited seem quite unreliable, and it seems to me that unless it can be shown that the Witch Hunt received national press, it should be removed altogether. AmiDaniel (talk) 23:05, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It did make the internet rounds, especially on forums like at parma-oh.com and policecrimes.com, but much of these discussions were deleted after very personal information on police officers and reporters started to appear including medical information, home addresses, etc. Ugly situation all around.  The current wording is pretty unbiased and accurate.--172.129.174.175 02:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I fail to see how the wording is unbiased and accurate in the least. I have never heard of this, and I'm sure that if I were to ask said police officers about this, I'd hear a different story (maybe I should try that). Besides, the Parma police aren't exactly model citizens as this article attempts to make them. Just stop removing the tag. --Wizardman 04:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Because you are personally ignorant of something doesn't mean it didn't happen or has no impact on its accuracy. There's probably species of insects that I've never heard of, but I won't go to the Wiki article on them and put up disputed tags just because "I have never heard of this."  Seriously, that's just ridiculous.  The article does not suggest that ALL police are without sins, only that the particular allegations that were made by the politicians all over The Plain Dealer, Sun Post, TV news, etc. were later proven to be false. If you're really from Parma and you never heard of the Witch Hunt, then I simply can't take you seriously.  It was the top lead article on the front page of the Plain Dealer for several days in a row, even with a war going on in Iraq! --172.163.75.164 13:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll second that. It is very bad etiquette to remove tags placed by others. Once you believe you have cleaned up the text, please post here and ask that I, WizardMan, or someone else who does not share your view remove the tags. Obviously, the text is still disputed, which is what the tag says. While you personally feel the text is unbiased, you cannot claim that the text is not currently disputed. AmiDaniel (talk) 06:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * As WizardMan claims no knowledge of the issue, I don't think such contributors are really in a fair position to dispute it. Now if someone had additional facts to include, that be one thing, but a dispute from someone who doesn't know what they're talking about is invalid.  Let those who are actually familiar with the issue edit the material.  The text has been cleaned up greatly already from its original form and has been supplemented with various links and references to official reports and newspapers articles. Seriously now, this has to be one of the more sourced sections of anything I've seen on Wikipedia and just can't see how anyone can continue to dispute it, unless they have different motives . . .--172.163.75.164 13:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, you don't know anything about nannochoristidae. You read the article on them. It says, "Nannochoristidae are the best bugs ever, although the good-old-boys will tell you otherwise. If you disagree that nannochristidae are not the best then you must be a part of the anti-nannochoristidae cabal." Are you not allowed to tag that section as POV, despite the fact that you know relatively nothing about the insects? That's what it's like here--I'm not familiar with the event (and subsequently have found it next to impossible to find any reputable source at all to explain it), but I know when someone is trying to push a point of view on me. I would quote a few specific passages to illustrate my point, but really the entire block of text is just unbelievaby preachy. Get rid of the references to the "good old boys,"the "Witch Hunt," the comparison to Henry the 7th, etc., and find some national press that asserts to notability and significance of the article. Otherwise, it's going to have to go altogether. And, although I don't really see much point in responding to your outlandish conspiracy theory, what other motives could I possibly have? I'm a computer programmer from Albuquerque, New Mexico, with no relatives or friends in Ohio, and yet you think I'm part of the "conspiracy" in Parma? Please. AmiDaniel (talk) 20:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Look, if we're going to talk insects, then I'd have to put my money down on the old praying mantis! :) The phrase "Witch Hunt" was used on bumper stickers, the old Parma-oh.com discussion forum and in at least three newspaper articles from two different newspapers. "Good old boys" is also a widely used designation for Parma's machine.  If you want to say the "so-called good old boys," that's fine by me.  As for Henry VIII, well, the mayor did make statements about heads rolling a la Henry VIII of England or the queen in Alice in Wonderland.  Regards, --172.154.147.241 21:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If the only thing "Henry VIII-like" about the statements is the phrase "heads will roll" itself, and if you can't cite a source comparing him to Henry VIII, then the mention of Henry VIII adds nothing but POV. Why Henry? Why not Robespierre or Vlad Dracul? Oh, let me guess: you didn't want to be incendiary. - Jmabel | Talk 22:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the point is that statements about "heads rolling" from someone whose advisor calls himself a "samurai," as seen in the The Plain Dealer, and refers to Parma a "fiefdom," is suggestive of a monarchic mentality. So, perhaps, "undemocratic statements" might be the better phrase?  Have a pleasant night and I hope Al S. didn't lose a finger when Hearst hammered his hand on Deadwood last night! --172.149.248.104 02:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Proofreading/editing posts
Please proofread posts before saving them instead of making multiple spelling corrections after the fact. By going back multiple times to your post, you clog up the recent changes page moderated by Wikipedia editors. Moreover, not doing so in advance of posting seems lazy and distracts from the seriousness of your comments. Thanks. 7:10 PM; reference is to Parma, Ohio discussion page comments made by Captain Barnaby Jingle-Ling,Chrome Ball Collector, Mycroft.Holmes, and White-Sox-4-Evah.

Ah yes, by all means, let's insult minor typos and spelling errors! -- Mycroft.Holmes 23:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think the person who started the proofreading topic is criticizing the typos. Rather, that message seems to be more about using a spell check or something BEFORE actually making the post, as opposed to going back multiple times, i.e. a get it right the first time message, which is actually quite easy to do if your have Works or Word and copy and paste things.  Have a nifty night! - - WWE Raw watcher at 11:12 PM

New edit war
Is it verified that the blackout started in Parma? If so, maybe that would be worth mentioning? Also, what about when council president Ken K. made national news after saying in regards to black people that "we just don't want them here"? Again, that nasty chapter in Parma history did indeed make national news and had long term consequences due to legal battles between Parma and the NAACP. Another bit of Parma news was when they wanted to build a highway straight through the city! --24.154.173.243 17:29, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * There is a Wiki on the blackout and at least one New York Times article on the racism bit, so I added these as they make national news. I'm not sure why the two incidents that for sure made national news would get deleted by some users . . .--172.162.144.116 23:04, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * If you add the new york times bit as a reference, then I guess I can understand keeping that in. If you can find a reference that proves the blackoutinformation you added in, then that would eb acceptable, at least to me. Just don't take off the neutrality tag yet per reason #3. I'd rather not see yet another edit war when it looked like things cooled down. --Wizardman 01:57, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, I put the dispute tag back on. The Wiki article on the blackout provides the information on Parma in the blackout.--172.132.226.126 02:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Didn't see Parma in the blackout article at first, but I see it now. I still consider the commerce section mostly advertising, and I don't consider it a big deal whether that's up or not anyway. Hopefully what's up now will be a temporary compromise for both sides. --Wizardman 02:14, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't intend the economy section to be an ad. It mentions more than one store and just tells us about the stores and why their important for the city without saying "WOW!!  Look at the prices at X!  Shop here! Etc."  There is something to be said about how in the 1980s and early 1990s Parma had many more mom and pop stores, especially the small pet stores that have given way to the big chains of PetSmart and Pet Supplies Plus.  Parma Pets remains, but even RMS had to move away form Parmatown only to have a second Pet Supplies Plus pop up over by their new location at Broadview and PV.  Perhaps the larger lesson is the growth of chains and the decline of small businesses.  Yeah, it happens it many cities, but it's a valid point that does illustrate one of the trends in Parma's history. --172.147.192.103 04:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Humble suggestion for Photos
Maybe some photos could be added to this article about Parma Ohio ? www.geocities.com/berniethomas68 17:04, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. I'd like to see some photos, too. --24.154.173.243 04:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Cite News
Please use cite news and the tags to attach specific references to specific claims, instead of the haphazard method by which references are currently listed. Thanks! --M @ r ē ino 21:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Protection
Okay, it seems as if the anon users and Mycroft have no idea how to come to a consensus on the economy. In all honesty, it has really become more of a problem than it should've ever been. I'm potecting it for now in order to figure out what exactly we should do with it. Post commetns regarding the economy section and future edits HERE insted of all around the page where no one can find them. Heck, taking out the economy section completely's starting to look good. --Wizardman 01:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I can understand why you would want to protect the page, but eliminating the economy section would be unnecessary as any city's economy is of course relevant and pertinent for an encylopedic article. As I posted elsewhere, I'm in the campe of looking at it like this: those who want to expand on the economic section at least make the effort to constantly re-word the segment (i.e. to compromise) and to make the material fit better, whereas those who don't just mass delete the area, sometimes carelessly as well by "accidentally" deleting other portions of the article that aren't even disputed.  I think that the economy section even with the maximum amount of information is still relatively concise and if nothing else is harmlessly enough so as to not justifiably warrant such adamant persistence in trying to remove it.  You'd think there's a racial slur or something to get people so worked up, but the selection is neutral and constantly being improved.  I'd rather see efforts to revise than just destroy, especially if those who actually contribute new material put some time and thought into it.  And it does seem that much of this article is information added by the proponent(s) of the economic section, including links and the like that Mycroft and yourself have approved.  Best (and yes, I corrected some of your spelling; force of habit), --24.154.173.243 04:57, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree; the information does not somehow detract from the overall quality of the article. Why some people would have such a hardon against it is beyond me . . .--172.144.193.100 20:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand why you think the economy additions aren't spam, but it really isn't necessary to list every little thing that a store offers. If you want to go in depth on RMS Aquaculture or something else, make a Wikipedia article on that. I encourage you guys to look at other big cities' economy sections such as Columbus, Ohio to get a better understanding of how to make that section. For example, phrasing the section such as "These particular specialty stores have, for example, collectively sold such diverse..." shows favoritism and bias in the article (I know it's unintentional). I don't mind the second paragraph that keeps getting deleted too much actually,and I'll look into that one moe to see what the problem is with Mycroft and that paragraph. --Wizardman 23:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Mycroft tried unsuccessfully to create an RMS article, but anyway, that section on pets is not just about RMS, it says that ALL of the various pet stores have COLLECTIVELY sold those items. Perhaps just trim the list?  I wouldn't be opposed to someone making a new article about RMS, as the store has had stores in at least a half dozen locations (some Greenhouse initially, then a big store in Middleburg Heights, another in Willoughby, one in Parma by the mall, then one in Parma on Broadview and PV, another in Strongsville, and they had a website with online sales to people around the country, etc.  So, while not a PetSmart or Pet Supplies Plus, RMS is at least a chain that has tried expansionist ventures).  Cheers!  --140.254.69.123 17:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC) P.S., Keep it smooth, fellas!


 * Unfortunately, the article on RMS Aquatics that has been recreated severally fails criterion A7 of the Speedy Deletion policy. A separate article on Parma businesses might be a better solution. --Ginkgo100 talk · e@ 04:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Not a good explanation, but okay . . . --Mycroft.Holmz 12:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Sigh. Obviously not me. --Mycroft.Holmes 12:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * What the?! --Mycroft.Holmz 12:51, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Every article has its resident ... ummmmm ... well ... [expletive deleted]. I guess there's no reason why this article should be any different. --Mycroft.Holmes 13:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yup, and YOU're it! Lol!  Seriously, don't you like cheeseburgers? --Mycroft.Holmz 15:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Everyone has agreed to eliminate the comments on pet and video stores from the economy section, but why, Mycroft, would you still want to delete the one sentence on the Parmatown Mall. How is that mall not significant to Parma's economy?  I don't see how a list of council presidents is a problem, when a list of mayors and other council people isn't.  The brief note in the demographic section about how Parma's position on the list of safest cities is factual and relevant and taken from bestselling almanacs available in most book stores.  It's true and significant that the city, while still on the list, has lost its position.  As for the history section, it is heavily referenced, was indeed the biggest news story for the city for the past three or more years (even was front page LEAD ARTICLE in the Plain Dealer for days in a row over terrorism and WMD articles!).  The nature of the text has been toned down dramatically, as well.  It really seems as if Mycroft just deletes any new change not done by himself without really examining the new edits.  You didn't want the pet stores mentioned, well we've agreed not to restore that; you thought the history was biased, well it has been revised multiple times and sourced.  You don't get to win every argument as you don't own this article and in some cases don't know what you're talking about.  Let's end this already and not delete anything form the current version, because a majority supports the current version.  Feel free to contribute new material or reword sentences in a better way, but knock off the unilateral deletions and treatment of this article as if it mycroftopedia rather than wikipedia.  Happy Halloween!  --164.107.92.120 17:52, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think this page should be kept protected until at least December, because while 164.107.92.120 and some others seem to be approaching this constructively, I can see the hardcore reverters just returning to their old tricks the second it's unprotected. So, admins, please keep this article protected for at least another month to make the reverters lose interest.  Thanks, --64.12.116.131 21:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to be lookign over this aricle in great detail over the next week or so to really see what's NPOV, what's spam, what's not, and what should and should not be in the article. I'll try and make it so that at least some parts of both sides are present, unless I realize that 1 of them is completely wrong, which I don't see yet. Hopefully once I'm done there won't be any more problems. --Wizardman 00:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * That RMS store in Parma (just the one in Parma) was recently bought by some other company, so I don't think you need to be worried about the economic dispute anymore. In other words, those who wanted the pet store information included, have no reason to re-add it.  Everything in the history section, however, can be backed up by scores of newspaper articles and the like.  Look at how many articles the Plain Dealer alone devoted to this matter and their website section devoted to the topic doesn't even include all of the articles they had: http://www.cleveland.com/parmapolice/ If you combined the Sun News articles and all the TV coverage, well . . . --164.107.92.120 21:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

My prolem with the history is that, after lookign at those links, this article is worded so that the Parma police look like the good guys in all of this, which is clearly not the case if you read the articles. Although it's obvious that the police did in fact have an overtime scandal, the article acts as if the government is attackign the police for no reason. I'll reach a self-consensus within a couple days and re-explain my position. --Wizardman 03:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The whole reason why it was a witch hunt is that they made these false allegations against the police only to then have an expense investigation that ran longer than agreed upon in the contract followed by a review of the investigation and then yet another investigation only to determine that the alleged overtime scandal really didn't take place. The police were front page news for several days and as the lead story and presented as villains with letters to the editor by citizens claiming to be afraid to give their names and the like only for three different investigations to finally conclude that much of what the two newspaper reporters alleged was either not true, not a crime or abuse of anything, and/or grossly exaggerated.  So, yes, if you read the pre-investigation articles written in an incredibly biased language calling Parma the worst police department in the state, etc, versus the articles after the THREE investigations, you'll find that the police as a whole suffered incredible media and political scrutiny only be essentially cleared in the end.  The politicians talked about heads rolling and offerred other hyperbolic statements BEFORE the investigations even took place, instead of responding more along the lines of "These are serious accusations and we'll look into them."  Moreover, Baldwin-Wallace produced an article that found pages of misleading statements and outright inaccuracies in The Plain Dealer series on the Parma Police that were picked up as facts by other media sources.  One blunder, which The Plain Dealer finally acknowledged as a mistake, was a negative article that kept repeating Parma police, when they meant Brookpark. So, you had some kind of hostile make the police look bad article that was really about an incident in Brookpark show up with Parma in the headline and in the article as well.  How can you mess up the name of the city that many times on the front of the metro page, where the Parma police received tons of calls complaining, only to have buried in the paper a "correction" that they really meant Brookpark?!  There really was no overtime scandal on the police's part as alleged by the Plain Dealer and instead of questioning the slipshod reporting, the city council and mayoral candidates just reacted as if it were true, and then enaged in public quarrels with the investigators only to in the end have reports that cost the city tens of thousands of dollars completely refute the Plain Dealer's allegations.  In the end, the politicians (DePiero and company) tried to put the new spin of "see the police were good all along" on the matter, apparently completely ignoring their previous statements that they made in the hopes of looking tough prior to an election.  I'm not saying, nor do I believe, that every Parma officer is a "saint," but what was alleged against them was determined by THREE different investigators NOT to be criminal, cost the city hundreds of thousands of dollars, and needlessly ruined the police departments reputation.  I don't know if I would call the police "the good guys," but most of them certainly were victims.  And it is far from obvious, if you're familiar with the whole story and all of the news reports, the actual investigation reports, etc. that there was any kind of scandal.  Even the Plain Dealer changed its tune once the three investigations were concluded.  The media attacked the police based on false leads and the politicians jumped on the bandwagon only to have both reverse their positions in the end when after two years the police as a whole were cleared.  There was no overtime scandal, only a witch hunt.  Happy Thanksgiving! --24.154.173.243 22:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright then, let's say you're right, there was no scandal, the police are good people, etc. Why is only one side of the story being presented in the wikipedia article and the references then? Instead of saying "a happened, then b happened, then c happened...", you seem to be saying "a happened, than b happened, and x was right, then c happened and y was being bad about it becuase they knew x was right." Your references are almost exclusively pro-police, with the only plain dealer one mainly being filegate. The references seem to say that there could be a political machine, but doesn't confirm that there is one. AS I said, I'll look over things. Can I prove there was an overtime problem? Technically no because it violates WP:OR. I guess my main problem is that your references don't go with the meat of the article. I'll try and look for references that will help what's up there. If I don't find any then parts of it (not all) will coem down. --Wizardman 04:07, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that you should keep the quote by Councilwoman Stys that appeared in the paper in which she called the investigation a "sham" as it is verifiable (from a newspaper article) and uttered by a recognizable figure (a councilperson) that further justifies that characterization of the fiasco as a "witch hunt." Best, --164.107.92.120 23:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

RFC
It doesn't look like an edit war has become serious yet, but I want to catch it before it gets bad, so I submited this to WP:RFC, with the following questions: There might be more, there are a few other things that I think a consensus has been reached.-- Wizardman 19:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) How much information regarding Padua is too much, seeing as how they have an article? Is the greening section necessary?
 * 2) Are the city councilmen and city council presidents notable, or indiscriminate. Is their inclusion too comprehensive?
 * 3) There is a statement in the witch hunt section which states, 'Barta's aquittal surprises no one other than supporters of the Witch Hunt.' I find this massively POV, yet it keeps being put back in. Is it in fact NPOV?

Comment: Neutral party, came here via RfC.


 * 85,000 is pretty good sized so the info seems okay, though I am not sure what you mean by "greening" section.
 * 1) The council is probably notable enough for inclusion in the article, though the lists should all be converted to prose. The mayors would probably qualify for article's in their own right, in my opinion.
 * 2) This whole section is problematic. Numerous assertions of opinions as "fact" and absolutely no inline citation, which is probably required here seeing as how this information is likely to be challenged without adequate citation from reliable sources. See WP:A. I am adding the neutrality tag to the section. IvoShandor 12:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Additional note: You could separate the mayors to List of mayors of Parma, Ohio, the police chiefs are probably non notable for inclusion in the article. Leave the current council and mayor, converted to prose, of course. IvoShandor 12:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There are numerous references to specific newspapers and links within the history section and a whole reference section as well, so everything in there can be factually substantiated through quick web searches. Best, --24.154.173.243 15:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello! Following IvoShandor's suggestion, I started a mayor page list.  Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 15:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The type of information in the History section is precisely why inline citations are here. They should definitely be used to leave no question. And the some of the wording should be changed to adhere to NPOV, conclusions need not be made by the writer(s), such as the one cited in the original RfC, remember to let the facts speak for themselves. IvoShandor 16:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * How do you make inline citations/references? I have a plethora of articles on the Witch Hunt, etc. that could be used to fulfill this suggestion as well, but I don't know how to make the references.  Thanks!  --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 17:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Use reference tags, around your reference information, right in the body of the article. Add a notes or references section and type in it. If you are going to use a reference more than once you can give it a name by using the ref tags like this: . Then when you want to use a reference a second or other times all you would have to type is  . Hope that helps. If the article's are online, include the date of last retrieval. Otherwise, I usually do the reference info like this:

Hope that helps. IvoShandor 17:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks. I'll try to make some time to do this ASAP a little later, as I'm hoping to cajole some family members into seeing 300 this evening!  Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 18:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Roger that. Have fun. Haven't seen it yet myself. If you want I can go through and have a look at the wording and post the problems here, if you want. IvoShandor 22:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I just tried to insert a reference following your suggestion. Please let me know if that's what you recommend or if not what else you suggest.  Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 02:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * With those citations, the section's looking better already. I'm glad this conflict didn't drag on for months, lol.-- Wizardman 02:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Mycroft seems to be ignoring our discussion here and efforts to compromise and improve the article and Patstuart seemed to just do a Mycroft-esque mass deletion. Because of the references to controversial council presidents and police chiefs in the still being revised History section, having a useful chronological list of these individuals is helpful for someone researching these events and relevant within the context of other aspects of the article.  I have no major qualms about allowing the section that lists the current council presidents to be cut, but again, this is useful and perhaps is something that all city articles could or should include and it's silly to just say that "stuff can be found elsewhere" on the internet, when the content of many encyclopedia articles can be found elsewhere in printed and online articles!  Having this factual and verifiable information here is convenient.  As for the education section, the developments regarding Padua have larger relevance to the city, because Camp Corde is a pretty substantial piece of property and the purchase by Padua therefore expands this school's influence and real-estate in the city, just as the projects to restore the Heninger House and West Creek also represent THE most subtantial developmental aspects of the city's appearance, economic, and educational changes and therefore is not JUST about one school or something as Mycroft seems to imply.  My other concern is that in trying to revert edits I make when I use various different computers in various different locations, Mycroft is also reverting edits by other anonymous ip users without apparently even considering if it's new material or not.  It's as if anyone adds something new, Mycroft gets the final word by deleting it all, when we all agreed to eliminate the stuff about RMS Aquaculture, we added more references, you (Wizardman) reworded aspects of the history section to make it less biased, etc.  While the rest of us discuss, compromise, and improve the article, we have one or two inidviduals who just revert to whatever version they last edited!  It's just ridiculous!  Your pal, --172.130.254.161 04:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Regardless of whether or not the list of council members is worthy of being included in the article, can we at least stop deleting the information about the high schools? As someone not from Parma who actually came to this article for said information, I think it's very useful to state which schools draw from which parts of the region. --Birdhombre 13:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Just for easy reference, I'm referring to this text:
 * Each school shares a common stadium for football and track events, also known as Byers Field. The rivalry that exists between these schools is well documented. Normandy High School is located in the South Eastern part of the city, and its population is made up of students from south Parma, and Seven Hills. Valley Forge is located in the South Western portion of the city, and includes students from South Western Parma, as well as Parma Heights. Parma High School is located in the center of the city, and includes students from central and northern Parma.
 * ...which was removed during these edits: and.


 * I also find "well documented " amusing. :) Here are a few to start with, although I'm not sure of their reliability/verifiability:
 * Even though rivalry may exist on the field of sports, the Spanish pen pals found connections to begin new friendships.
 * “On the field, you think that the guys from Valley Forge and Parma are bad guys because they’re playing you tough trying to get the win” said recent Normandy graduate Dan Ebinger, who will play defensive end. “But, after you meet with them, you realize that they’re all actually pretty nice guys. It’s pretty nice getting to know them as people instead of just judging them by how they played against you.”
 * Normandy was upsetted last week against Parma. Over the years, a second rivalry has formed between Valley Forge & Normandy, the battle of Parma, a battle that would determine the better team.
 * --Birdhombre 13:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I also agree that the high school information is convenient and helpful and will restore it ASAP. Sincerely, --164.107.223.217 15:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * True, I don't have a problem with the high school info remaining in the article. I still ask that some of the Padua information be removed, only because it's in the Padua wikipedia article already. No reason to have duplication. The rivalry stuff and all that's fine.-- Wizardman 18:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I am willing to compromise on just keeping what parallels the existing information on Parma High for Padua and eliminating the other stuff or noting alongside the Heninger House, West Creek stuff about Padua's purchase of Camp Corde. Best, --164.107.223.217 20:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that most of you have been doing a fantastic job reasoning things out and improving the article. It really looks to be coming along nicely and I'm glad to see so much maturity as of late, but all but a very small minority of users.  Good job to Wizardman, Le Grand Roi, 164, Birdhombre, etc.  Have a good night! --209.247.21.161 05:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

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