Talk:Parties in the European Council

Legend
Would it be a good idea to have a legend for the map? And more self-explanatory headings for the table?--Boson 11:26, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The summery table does that doesn't it? With the headings, perhaps it is best to just link them more?- J Logan t: 16:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * maybe coalitions should be noted differently, particularly since there are different configurations of the Council. This is how it's done in the article on Bundesrat_of_Germany Aryah (talk) 12:16, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Name change
I'd like to change all these articles from "Parties in the Council of the European Union" to "Composition of the European Council". Reason being that the leader does not sit in the Council, but in the European Council, and it coalitions mean the parties can't apply to all ministers. Further more, these provide a full historical index of those people who have sat in the European Council so I think it is more helpful to come under the European Council name (hence my dropping of political in favour of something more generic). How's that?- J Logan t: 16:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Really, anyone objecting or even commenting. If not, I'll make the changes.- J Logan t: 22:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, if the content remains unchanged... Keep in mind there's about eight of these articles. — Nightstallion 01:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry about delay on this, I'm on it now. No content change of course, except for those relating to the change in the article name.- J Logan t: 21:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

One question: do you also consider representing also the composition of the EU Council (with different components of coalition governments). We could take the article over the German Bundesrat as an example: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Zusammensetzung_des_Bundesrat_2009-11-10.png The information about the composition of the European governments seems to be frequently updated in the following article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union Just a suggestion :) Thank you ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rubiscube (talk • contribs) 07:42, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Gediminas Kirkilas.jpg
The image Image:Gediminas Kirkilas.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --00:25, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo
Kosovo is not an independent country according to the UN, therefore the map is not decent as a representative map of Europe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.92.11.149 (talk) 18:37, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * And in plus the EU as a whole (i.e. institucionally) does not recognise its independence.

So-called independents
It's time to stop presenting Mario Monti, Traian Băsescu, Dalia Grybauskaitė, and Lucas Papademos as independents. Most of them, if not all, have been involved in political parties and all are supported by a coalition of parties. As regards Traian Băsescu, I don't know who is stupid enough to believe that he has to be independent as stated by the Romanian constitution. Wikipedia relies on coherent sources. If this table has to take into account what national constitution, then I demand that Nicolas Sarkozy also be presented as independent, as laid out in the French constitution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Julien-223 (talk • contribs) 09:35, 30 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I think I want to hug you Julien-223. I whole-heartedly agree with your point (although I am not aware of the French Constitution provision, if you are correct that is very persuasive). Perhaps a solution would be to list the parties that are/did support the president and have a new colour for either the main party supporting or something like purple for a mixed result. Also, I feel that the PM of Romania is the real power but I admit I am not nearly an expert. I know the president has power and isn't a figurehead but he doesn't seem to be more powerful than the PM. It seems rather like Finland but a little stronger. Any thoughts on that? (Fshoutofdawater (talk) 22:27, 7 February 2012 (UTC))


 * Funny, yesterday, I was saying to Ignis Fatuus that the EPP website lists Traian Băsescu among EPP heads of States. This was not only visible on the EPP homepage (www.epp.eu) but also on the "Heads of States" page. But astonishingly, the "Heads of States" page was modified overnight (http://www.epp.eu/council.asp?z=5D5B) and Basescu removed. Somebody's being really careful about this Wikipedia page, in times of major social unrest in Romania. But they haven't had the time to change this page (http://www.epp.eu/pressnew.asp?artid=1770) or the dozens of similar EPP press releases (search Basescu http://ppe.eu/press.asp?page=3&year=2001&month=2) of which I keep a copy and where Basescu appears as an EPP head of State. Neutrality is the rule on wikipedia, we should be very careful about that. Ignis Fatuus has rightly pointed out that the French constitution doesn't impede the president to have party membership card. I take that back. I was only referring to the spirit of the French constitution and De Gaulle's ideas on the president's position. I don't know if Sarkozy has his UMP membership card. I know the last article of the UMP statute lays down who is in charge of the party when the party president has been elected president of the Republic. This suggests that president isn't considered as UMP leader or member, but actually without saying anything clearly about that. Anyways, I think that basing our table only on membership cards and legal fictions is legally right, but scientifically poor and poor from a wikipedia point of view. Wikipedia bases on consensus and verifiable sources, and most media underline the strong political links of Traian Băsescu and Dalia Grybauskaitė with political parties. I guess Ignis Fatuus will not agree on that, no matter what his reasons are. But I have enough proofs that Basescu is an EPP member, so I demand that he be presented as such on this wikipedia article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Julien-223 (talk • contribs) 09:16, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Full protection
I have fully protected the article for 3 days. In addition, I have reverted the article to the way it stood before this dispute started. Please note that this does not in any way mean that I believe that version is correct, or that the last version was wrong--I have absolute no (zero, none, zilch) opinion on this one way or the other. However, I do believe that since there was a clean "prior version", reverting to that version is the best way to ensure parity while the discussion continues.

Edit warring is never the correct way to deal with a conflict. Instead, you both should be discussing the issue here on the talk page. Technically, I could have blocked both of you for edit warring, but figured this was a little bit kinder. At this point, it is clear that you need outside opinions to help guide this discussion. Since there seem to be only 2 people involved in this discussion (maybe 3; I'm a little unclear if the IP is a separate person or one of the other two editing while logged out on mistake), a request at the third opinion noticeboard is probably a good first step. And if that isn't sufficient, I recommend moving on to either the dispute resolution noticeboard or an request for comment. If you need help setting any of those up, please let me know and I will guide you through the process.

However, if the edit warring begins again after 3 days, I may reprotect the page...or I may just start blocking people. Now is the time for discussion, not edit warring. Please. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:07, 10 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm a third person (fshoutofdawater) but I am NOT in the editing war. I was simply discussing on the talk page so I think there are no grounds to block me. (Fshoutofdawater (talk) 09:19, 10 February 2012 (UTC))

Thank you Qwyrxian. I made a request on the third opinion noticeboard, but I think it's not going to be enough (this page is not really active, is it?).


 * I've reverted your request for a 3rd Opinion as I see no section made where a disagreement between 2 editors is clear. If you want to make a request for a 3rd opinion, please indicate clearly the request.  In a separate section would be most ideal, so the 3rd party can opine neutrally and clearly.Curb Chain (talk) 11:48, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The problem is: Ignis Fatuus won't participate in the Talk page!Julien-223 (talk) 13:07, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Request for a 3rd opinion: Basescu as PD-L and/or EPP member?
My position is that Romanian President Traian Basescu may not be, factually, a member of the PD-L, even though he has always been before his election and was supported by the PD-L during the presidential campaign. I think all media consider Traian Basescu as affiliated to the PD-L even though he doesnn't have the membership card, and wikipedia should describe both the political reality illustrated by the media and the constitutional fiction (http://ciprian-luca.ro/?p=126) Reliable sources describing Basescu as member of the PDL: http://www.international.gc.ca/world/embassies/factsheets/Romania-FS-fr.pdf

Anyways, Basescu is a member of the EPP: Sources: http://www.epp.eu/council.asp?z=5D5B ; http://www.32462857769.net/EPP/Comtool6.0/e-PressRelease/PDF/Marseille051211.pdf "EPP's EU heads of state and government Nicolas SARKOZY (France), ... Traian BASESCU (Romania)"' ; Search for other EPP press releases with Traian Basescu here http://www.epp.eu/press.asp ; Contact EPP staff for confirmation that Basescu is a member of the EPP congress http://www.epp.eu/contactus.asp. Ignis Fatuus doesn't have the right to say that European parties do not have individual members without checking. It's false in the case of the EPP.Julien-223 (talk) 11:12, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Here is a copy of Ignis Fatuus' contributions (see edit page):
 * 15:37, 9 February 2012‎ Ignis Fatuus (The provided press relesase does not say that Basescu is an EPP member. Basescu cannot be listed as such until a reliable source confirms that he is.)
 * 11:38, 9 February 2012‎ Ignis Fatuus (Please provide SOURCE)
 * 18:50, 8 February 2012‎ Ignis Fatuus (Europarties are made up of national parties, not individuals. Please provide a reliable source proving that it is possible to be a member of a Europarty without belonging to any national party.)
 * 15:43, 8 February 2012‎ Ignis Fatuus (Please provide a reliable source that Basescu is a current member of PD-L. As of 2012, Romanian law does not allow him to be. However, he was, so EPP may list him so as to increase their number of current ruling heads of State.)
 * 13:02, 8 February 2012‎ Ignis Fatuus (Please see List of Chancellors of Germany or List of Presidents of France; they are listed with their political affiliations pointed out. See List of Presidents of Romania: they are not, since they are NOT ALLOWED to belong to any party)
 * 00:24, 8 February 2012‎ Ignis Fatuus (Please see www.epp.eu/eppHeadsOfStateGov.asp --> Neither Basescu or Grybauskaité are featured.)
 * 15:36, 7 February 2012‎ Ignis Fatuus (While Basescu was supported by the PD-L in 2009, he IS NOT currently a member of PD-L. This table reflects CURRENT POLITICAL AFFILIATIONS.)
 * 03:04, 7 February 2012‎ Ignis Fatuus (By law, the President of Romania is not allowed to belong to any political party during his or her term in office. This is not the case of the President of France.)
 * This list is completely unhelpful, because anyone can look in the history and see the full picture much more clearly than here. We get it--Ignus Fatuus edit warred. And so did you. Would you like me to just block both of you? What we need to do now is figure out how to decide what should be in the article. The 3O is a good place to start; just wait and see what comes of that. Qwyrxian (talk) 13:24, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I was just trying to respond to Curb Chain's demand, since he just reverted my request for he lacked a global view of the edit war on the talk page. No need to take it as an offense. Don't hesitate to delete this paragraph. What should I do? Relaunch the 3rd Opinion request now or wait? Julien-223 (talk) 14:33, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The problem is that most content dispute resolution processes, including 3O, WP:DRN, WP:MEDCAB, and WP:MEDCOM are not available until the matter has been discussed and come to a standstill somewhere, preferably upon the article talk page. About all that can be done in the case of an editor who won't engage in discussion is to wait until they violate the three revert rule (but you haven't) and file a 3RR complaint and/or request help from other users at Editor Assistance or through a request for comments. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 19:48, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The issue has been being discussed: through edit summaries. Also, to Julien-123, please note that Ignis Fatuus hasn't edited wikipedia at all since the full protection was put in place. I am going to leave a note on xyr talk page asking them to come discuss the issue here. Please note that should xe simply wait out the protection with no actual discussion, there are other tools in our disposal (i.e., someone who refuses to discuss the issue but keeps edit warring would be blocked). But lets hope for the best; note that since we are in the weekend (or approaching it, depending on where y'all live) it may simply be a matter of time to get the discussion going. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:03, 11 February 2012 (UTC)


 * It might be time to extend the protection for some days. Has anybody heard anything from Ignis Fatuus (what is the "xyr talk page" ?)? Julien-223 (talk) 10:15, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * "xyr" means "his/her"; it's an invented gender neutral pronoun that a few people on WP use. At this point, since Ingus Fatuus has not responded (in fact, xe hasn't been on WP at all), go ahead and make your edit. If Ignus comes here to discuss, I'll revert your edit and the discussion can proceed at the pre-dispute status quot; but if IF simply refuses to discuss, I'll block xyr for edit warring.  I'll explain this on xyr talk page. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:33, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I made the changes in the table (+ references), in the summary (Templace: European Council Standings); I need time to change the map.Julien-223 (talk) 10:20, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Odl table
Here is the old table presenting European Council members. Some of its elements still need to be integrated in the new one :

The last change to the list of leaders was on 10 February 2012, when Janez Janša became the Prime Minister of Slovenia. AKEL holds only observer status with the Party of the European Left.