Talk:Partition of Albania

Untitled
Probably we ought to rename the article into Partitions of Albania, since there were two of them, one in 1878 and another one in 1913? This would be similar to the Partitions of Poland article. T&#39;bojnomin (talk) 11:44, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Albania was a state during 1444-1479, and again on 28 November 1912. Albania declared independence on 28 November 1912. And the independent Government headed by Ismail Qemali declared independence of this state (see map), although most of this territory was occupied by Serb, Montenegrin and Greek armies. In July 1913 the 6 powers decided to partition the independent state declared on 28 November 1913, and they drew a map according to their interests.For a year, this Albania was declared independent. In July 1913, it was partitioned. The term Albanian State from 28 November 1912 and on can be found in various Western literature, like: 1, 2, 3, 4.

If the term and article "Partition of Albania" bothers some persons in Wikipedia, then also "Partition of Poland" and "Partition of India" should be deleted as they seem so similar to what happened to Albania in 1912-1913. (Edvin (talk) 13:43, 1 February 2012 (UTC))
 * I don't think you are understanding my point. I am suggesting a move to the word "Partitions" (plural), because there were two partitions, not a deletion. As a matter of fact I voted Keep. However I do understand that in the Albanian history the plural has not been used, rather the singular form has been used as the partition was a continuous process in the years from 1878 to 1913. I believe there might be sources to support the appellatives "first" and "second partition"s, but you need to bring them forth. T&#39;bojnomin (talk) 14:25, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I would agree with T'bojnomin. The Albanian name can stay as it is.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 18:41, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Sources for the article
In this article i have added only sources from Western scholars, and written in English. I kept away Serbian, Albanian and Greek sources, to have a more neutral view. User:Alexikoua has added sources from Stevan K. Pavlowitch Biography, Birth Date: 1943, Born in Belgrade. I think we should refrain from citing authors who are biased, and a book written from a (Serb in our case) Greek or Albanian might tend to exaggerate or give some false information. Thus, maybe that citation should be removed and the sentence rewritten. (Edvin (talk) 19:15, 1 February 2012 (UTC))

What is Albania
Albania is either a political entity or geographical region. That should be clarified in the lede.

All sentences referring to territory populated with substantial Albanian population as Albania should be deleted. Congress of Berlin was 25 years before political entity has been established and does not mention Albania at all, so anything relating to the Congress of Berlin should be removed from this article. Albanian vilayet was agreed with Ottomans in 1912. It could not be divided before it was agreed or before proclamation of its independence, so anything referring to Albanian vilayet(s) before 1912 should be removed from article or reworded.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:22, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Go ahead, be BOLD. Athenean (talk) 23:30, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


 * That's reasonable, a non-existent entity (Albanian during the Berlin Congress) can't be partitioned.Alexikoua (talk) 10:30, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that I maybe understand what is understood as Albania by some users in this case. I think they don't refer to geographical region, because it is obvious that geographical region Albania did not include Novi Pazar or some other places mentioned in the article.
 * I think that they probably refer to state Albania, which is proclaimed independent on 28 November 1912 by delegates from all kazas of all four Ottoman vilayets comprising Albanian Vilayet. It was that state which was partitioned after London Conference 1912-1913 although territories which were ceded to Serbia, Greece and Montenegro had substantial Albanian population who opposed this partition . If the topic of this article is partition of that state, then it should be clearly emphasized in the lede of the article and rest of the text and this article should not be deleted. If the topic of this article is partition of Niš or any other territory outside Albanian Vilayet or before 1913, then this article should be deleted.
 * Question for Olsie and Edvini: Is the topic of this article the partition of the above mentioned state?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Partition of X, means plans or intentions to annex partly or completely a specific country. About Albania, plans of partitions were unsuccessful and Albania retained all its territories from its very creation until today.Alexikoua (talk) 13:49, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are right that you can only partition a specific country . That is why is very important to define the topic of this article, or more precisely, to define Albania we talk about here. As I explained in above comment: I think that creator of this article and users who !voted for keeping this article probably refer to state Albania, which is proclaimed independent on 28 November 1912 by delegates from all kazas of all four Ottoman vilayets comprising Albanian Vilayet. It was that state which was partitioned after London Conference 1912-1913 although territories which were ceded to Serbia, Greece and Montenegro had substantial Albanian population who opposed this partition .
 * I left TB templates on the talk page of Olsie and Edvini and I expect they will clarify the topic of this article. In the meantime, other users who support keeping this article are also welcome to write if they referred to above mentioned Albania as the topic of this article. Taking in consideration emphasizing the importance of the First Balkan war and the London Conference, I think that is Albania they refer to. Am I right?
 * Comments are welcome. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:36, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comment Antidiskriminator. The article will be improved. The main point of the article is the Partition of ALbania, relating to the Albania which was declared independent on 28 November 1912. Although, the Albanians view as Albania also some parts of the territories partitioned during the Congress of Berlin.

In history we have had cases of partitioning of countries which were not states in the Western, modern model. Or they were part of some other states or occupied by other states. For example, Partition of POland, refers to partition of the commonwealth of Lithuania-Poland, or partition of India, in fact refers to the former British colony of India, which was not a state before, but just a colonised, occupied territory, mixed with some principalities. Or partition of Hungary, refers to the partition of Hungary under the Austro-hungarian empire. In these cases, although you didnt have a separate state, the population partitioned, had a sense of nationality and viewed any annexation of their territory as partition of their nation/country. So, in the case of Congress of Berlin, Albanians viewed it as annexation of their population and their territory except some parts around Nish and Thessaly. But in 1912, the Albanians viewed it as partition of the proclaimed state on 28 November 1912. So i will change the part of the Congress of Berlin as a view of Albanians under the Ottoman Empire. Disputes are solved through discussion and consensus and not through pathetic threatening of reporting like Athenean did with me some times ago, and with another member of Wikipedia who happened to Albanian and editing the same article, and with other members of Wikipedia in Albanian. (Edvin (talk) 18:24, 2 February 2012 (UTC))
 * I added the part about the Congress of Berlin, but modified as a view by Albanians which is clearly specified there. (Edvin (talk) 20:44, 2 February 2012 (UTC))


 * The claim that the term "Partition of Albania" refers exclusively to the territorial changes of the London Conference is 100% OR and I have reverted it. Not only that, but the changes were highly ungrammatical and made the lede difficult to read.  Also, it is a well-known fact that these territories were multi-ethnic, so using phrases like "according to some sources" is WP:WEASEL. Athenean (talk) 21:26, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Athenean, it seems that you have some personal issues with this part of History of Albania. Please, refrain from edit wars and consult the consensus and the discussions here in the talk page. Or I will be forced to report you, as you are the only one who is trying to destroy any kind of agreement on this page and pushing only YOUR Point of View. (Edvin (talk) 21:33, 2 February 2012 (UTC))
 * Seems we have wp:idontlike situation, but it seems easy to understand that a non-existent entity can't be participated. I believe this needs to go to wp:rfc. (@Edvini: plz remove your 'declaration of edit war' in sq:wiki, canvassing doesn't mean you have strong argument to present).Alexikoua (talk) 21:48, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * By the way it needs to be explained why the map with the Albanian descriptions is again restored. Since we have the same one with English legend and labels and much better quality there is no need for the other.Alexikoua (talk) 21:52, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Because the map on Prinicipality of Albania, is different from the State of Albania, headed by Ismail Qemali. (Edvin (talk) 21:58, 2 February 2012 (UTC))


 * @Edvini: Instead of addressing my point, you are making personal attacks. Very bad idea.  There is no source that the term "Partition of Albania" refers exclusively to the territorial changes of the London Conference.  That is nothing more than your own OR.  Now, please address my point, and stop with the edit-warring and personal attacks.  Athenean (talk) 21:52, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I created the article about the state which was subject to partition, the Independent Albania. I hope that it will now be easier to clarify the object of partition.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:13, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much Edvin for your confirmation that "The main point of the article is the Partition of ALbania, relating to the Albania which was declared independent on 28 November 1912." I noticed your comment which emphasize importance of this topic in the year of celebration of 100 years of Albania being declared as independent. I tried to do something about this important anniversary and invited other members of WikiprojectAlbania to work together to improve the quality of related articles. Sadly, nobody replied. I am very glad that at least somebody realised importance of the collective effort in order to prepare articles on wikipedia for this important event. I tried myself to do whatever I could. I made very big number of articles which are related to this event and part of the template about Albanian history. Here are some of them (only those somehow related to the independent state of Albania) which are fundamental for the history of Albania and history of Albanians: Sanjak of Albania, Albanian Revolt of 1911, Albanian Revolt of 1912, Albanian Vilayet, Albanian Congress of Trieste, International Commission of Control, International Gendarmerie - GA, Peasant Revolt in Albania, Bulgarian occupation of Albania, Autonomous Albanian Republic of Korçë - GA, Republic of Central Albania, Committee for the National Defence of Kosovo, Kararname (League of Prizren), Assembly of Vlorë, Black Society for Salvation, Themistokli Gërmenji...
 * I am proud to be probably the most active participant of WikiProject Albania. Most of 36 DYK articles I wrote are part of this project. And 2/3 of my good articles (2/3 means 2 out of 3). Although 95% of the job has been finished, there is still 5% of the most important things to be completed before the anniversary. Let us focus to the state declared independent on 28 November 1912 and its partition. You are more than welcome if you want to work together with me in order to improve the quality of the articles related to this important anniversary. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:37, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

@Antid. If we create articles for every wanna-be non-historical state then we will have tons of articles only in the regions of Balkans. Every single declaration of Independence claimed a specific territory, for example there were 20 proposed boundaries for Greece during the local War of Independence (state proposed by Rigas, by Kapodistrias etc), and who knows fpr Bulgaria, Serbia etc.

On the other hand the 'real' Indepedent Albania (the region under the control of the provisional government of Vlore) was restricted to the regions of Vlore and Berat, anything more was imagination.Alexikoua (talk) 22:44, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with you that we should not create articles for every wanna-be non-historical state but I think that this state is notable and deserves its article. Yes you are right that the government of Independent Albania did not control the territory of the state, except for regions of Vlore and Berat. I shall add that information to the article. If you have any other information about this state, please feel free to add it to the article. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:59, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

The map of what the Government of Ismail Qemali claimed for Albania is that one on this article. The map of Ethnic Albania can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_Albania and it is different from the map presented by the Albanian state on 1912. The two maps are not the same. (Edvin (talk) 13:37, 3 February 2012 (UTC))


 * I wonder how two maps that display the same borders of the same proposed states (prov. government of Albania under I.Qemali) and of the same captions and legends can be diferrent from eachother. Alexikoua (talk) 13:45, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, i am surprised as well. But i know for sure that the map i brought is not the ethnic Albania, as you can clearly see from how they differ, and second, i have seen the copy of the original map that the Government of I.Qemali asked for Albania in 1912, which is the one i brought (which is a copy of it). Maybe the map with captions in English refers to what the Government of Principality of Albania under the government of Wilhelm of Wied. This map leaves out Prishtina, something which could have never been accepted by I.Qemali and the other delegates who signed the act of Independence. (Edvin (talk) 22:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC))
 * I plan to create an article about International Boundary Commission which was in charge for delineation of the borders of the Principality of Albania. That article is needed and can hep clarifying the situation with borders. If anybody can suggest some sources, I would be very grateful.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:55, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism in this article
It seems that for some people how an even is regarded by the people who were subject to this event, doesn't count. Given that I am Albanian and the partition of Albania is the biggest trauma for my nation, I added this sentence to clarify the Albanian opinion as victims of this partition. The event is repeatedly debated in Albania almost weekly. Its effects have left deep economical and political scars in the country. It seems that this bothers some users here in Wikipedia, like Alexikoua.

May I know why this paragraph unleashes such a rage of a guy from a country which participated in the partition of Albania? The partition of Albania is regarded as the biggest tragedy for the Albanian nation even nowadays, and the trauma has left deep scars in the Albanian national consciousness, politically and economically. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edvini (talk • contribs) 18:08, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Please follow wp:HISTRS, such tone is far from neutral in general.Alexikoua (talk) 19:57, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Aftermath section
It does not help to add another source if the claim of "hundreds of thousands" refugees is not supported by that source either. Given that the number of inhabitants in Albania in 1923 was 803,959, the claim seems to be completely unrealistic. It would be better to change the text to fit the sources, forgetting all about the "hundreds of thousands".

Another point: The article states in several ways that a partition of Albania never succeeded, but that the state maintained its territories. How, then, can it be said that "The partition of Albania caused" this wave of refugees. --T*U (talk) 08:27, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The partition happened in 1913 and the ethnic cleansing followed the partition. The part which was left as "Albania" by the London Conference was the least populated area in the Albanian territories. Anyways, the sources are in English, if you have something against the authors of the sources, then you should state it here. Albania was partitioned, and that's why you have an article. (Edvin (talk) 18:35, 27 October 2015 (UTC))
 * No, I have nothing against the sources. The problem is that the sources do not seem to support what is stated in the text. The first source says nothing about "hundreds of thousands of Albanians" to "escape inside the recognized borders of Albania". On the contrary, it says: "However, the number of refugees to Albania remained small", continuing: "because Albania was too poor to support refugees". The linked page in the second source is about 1919--20, not about 1913, and it just says "Many refugees fled to Albania", nothing about hundreds of thousands. So there are actually three choices: 1) Reinstate the tamplates; 2) Give better source for the claim in the text; or 3) Change the text to fit the sources. Since I do not take part in edit wars, I leave the choice to you. In my opinion the third option is the soundest.
 * As for the "partition of Albania in 1913", there are some serious issues about how to phrase it, but let us take one thing at the time. --T*U (talk) 07:59, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You have now inserted an even stronger version: "a campaign of forcibly driving of hundreds of thousands of Albanians from the territories left outside the new borders". This is not what the source says. It does not mention any "campaign", and the number of "hundred of thousands" is nowhere mentioned. Please do not insert unsourced claims like that. I have reinstated the former version. However, I have added the word "forcible" to match the source better. --T*U (talk) 08:31, 11 January 2016 (UTC)