Talk:Passive-aggressive behavior/Archive 1

This article has absolutely nothing to do with passive aggressiveness as it has been used for a very long time.
Passive aggressiveness means that someone has problem with another person but does not approach that person and work out their differences in a direct manner, instead choosing passive means of attacking that person such as spreading rumors about them behind the target's back and manipulating social situations to try and make someone look bad.

It has absolutely nothing to do with anything mentioned on this page, and furthermore the proposed description is mostly nonsense. It requires some privileged position of omniscience relative to the "passive aggressive" person such that there can exist such a presumed "authority figure" that disagreeing with is passively aggressive.

The behaviors talked about on the page are not aggressive at all but rather denote skepticism in someone that as of yet cannot clearly word their disagreement.

Just because person A can't think of a way to explain why person B is wrong doesn't mean that person B is right and also does not mean that person A doesn't know that person B is wrong. You can know something before you can explain it very well.

Not a personality disorder?
It was listed as an Axis II personality disorder in the DSM-IIIR, but was moved in the DSM-IV to Appendix B ("Criteria Sets and Axes Provided for Further Study") because of controversy.

I'm unclear, based on this excerpt, whether it is no longer considered a personality disorder by DSM-IV or not. If not, the title and intro should be changed to be NPOV. --NealMcB 20:54, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

History
I am not a psychologist, and my article on passive-aggression is probably woefully inadequate and largely inaccurate, but I wanted to get something into Wikipedia about it. I hope people who know more about passive-aggression can add some descriptions of passive-aggressive behaviors to the article. - Brian Kendig 21:38, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC).

I've removed the line, "What looks like a personality disorder to an officer may be a perfectly rational survival strategy for a 'grunt' on the front line," from the end of the first (and currently only) paragraph in this section because it's irrelevant. -Dan 03:01, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

The history seems a bit circular. Officers started calling soldiers "passive-aggressive" when they noticed them being passive-aggressive? Can we expand on this? Taco325i 20:40, 28 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Woefully inadequate is a bit of an overstatment. The article is a good foundation.  PAB and PAPD is one of my areas of expertise, as it happens.  I'll lend a hand when I have some time.


 * In the meantime, I think we need to get a citation for that history line. Sounds suspect.

Cheers! Mjformica 13:13, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

copyright?
This article has some strong similarities with this Straight Dope article, such as this segment: The term "passive-aggressive" was introduced in a 1945 U.S. War Department technical bulletin, describing soldiers who weren't openly insubordinate but shirked duty through procrastination, willful incompetence, and so on. If you've ever served in the military during wartime, though, or for that matter read Catch-22, you realize that what the brass calls a personality disorder a grunt might call a rational strategy to avoid getting killed. --TheEngineer 14:55, 23 November 2005 (UTC) This is the first time I have interacted on wikipedia. I looked up passive aggressive behavior because I have often heard the term used loosely by people looking to undermine another person. In my experience people use this term as a last resort diagnosis of a person found undesirable to them. Most frequently to describe a roommate. For example, instead of complaining about dirty dishes left in the sink, one might sigh heavily and ask their roommate "did you cook any food tonight?"...Anyway, the reason I really decided to post is because after reading the entire article I gained no real knowledge of what passive aggressive behavior is. There was one section however that clued me to why that might be. A short couple sentence paragraph headlined History. '"Passive-aggressive" was first used by the U.S. military during World War II, when military psychiatrists noted the behavior of soldiers who displayed passive resistance and reluctant compliance to orders. [1]'

Puzzle
The phrase passive-agressive is clearly used in different venues - hierarchies, inter-group, interpersonal. It always is about behaviors revealed along in relationships; but the disorder can be entirely situated in one or another party to the relationship. It's used for serious breakdowns and for very silly little things. For example you'll hear people refer to a slow computer program as being "passive agressive."

Consider the hierarchtical relationships. In one scenario it's used as a critique of a subordinate who fails to jump when so commanded. Absent particulars who is to say the bad actor is in that case? In a related scenario it's used when the subordinate is uniformly resistant to any instruction. Again this could be passive agression or it could be the subordinate lacks necessary skill or the instructions are totally lame; who's to say? In the most serious hierarchtical case the subordinate(s) are undermining the enterprise thru consistent work slow downs. In al three of these the term has strong ties into labor/management disputes and arguements about the nature of how works is framed (hierarchy/colaboration/duty/enthusiasm/closiness-of-supervision/etc./etc.). As such the term is often really about power.

But the term is also used and useful in the culture dynamics between groups. And there you see it tied up the group level variation of the issues above. So you see broad statements like 'women are passive agressive' or 'black are ...'.

The term is also used in inter-personal relationship cases. There; presumably, the power issues receed further into the background.

As soon as the power issues can be gotten off the table then you get to the kinds of usage where the term is refering to an actual relationship disorder or an actual personality disorder. You get individuals who have fallen into passive agressive behavior patterns and no matter how healthy the relationship is their responses will be passive and agressive. This behavior patterns, like any agression, will shift the relationship into a less an less healthy one and you get a reenforcing effect that can lead to those suffering from the full blown disorder having a terribly hard time forming any healthy relationships. Which is, of course, a pain for those trying to work with them.

Consistently passive agressive behaviors also arise in situations where a suborindate individual or group has no other option for negotiating with the superior individual or group. The superior(s) often do not appreciate this - why would they? In some cases changing circumstances can open up better negotating options for the subordinate group; but the behaviors persist. One risk that arises when a subordinate individual or group discovers he/they is no longer as locked in that passive agressive behavior transitions to agressive behavior rather than into some more constructive negotiating technique.


 * This is an interesting discourse, but my feeling is that is falls directly into the trap that it is attempting to point out.  P/A is an over-used term, and overused in a way that underscores the popular misunderstanding of the issue -- much like "inferiority complex" in the late 60's/early 70's.


 * "Such a term is often really about power." Exactly.  P/A is an attempt to exert control over a situation in which one feels powerless, for reasons that may or may not be obvious to the actor, through inaction.  It is a fundamental distortion of relationship at all levels, at all times.  The first rule of forensic psychology is that "the way that people do one thing is the way that they do everything".  P/As are p/a across the board, but it is about the person, not the relationship.  --Sadhaka 22:37, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

More information
There is a lot of good material here. I haven't had the time to go through it and see what can be included in the article. Dreadlocke 21:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * There really is. It descibes my mother almost exactly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CerealBabyMilk (talk • contribs) 15:19, 26 July 2006 EDT

There is a lot of talk about subordinate relationships here(in business and in the military) but, this comment about it being about power seems to be right on. The P/A behaviour is P/A behaviour in a relationship with anyone. In this case in a romantic relationship. It is about control. It is a behaviour with which he handles every little conflict. He can't share control of anything. He fears loosing any control. It is how he tries to maintain control and power. When he is questioned he is all innocent and it is her fault. He does nothing wrong. He has a very hard time apologizing and never will unless it he is going to loose the relationship. This is the same behaviour he exibits with his children, if they get angry then they get ignored. They also learn to stuff their emotions and also learn to deal with all conflict in the same way and also exibit P/A behaviour.

My own observation and a question
Most of the attention given to P/A focusses on the obvious negative impacts, such as the list of traits found in this article. I've found that many individuals that are chronic in this behavior have learned a survival skill that keeps them gainfully employed: they've learned to pretend they are being helpful while all the while undermining the team's objectives. "I'll go get that hammer" turns into a 15 minute search & rescue that becomes laden with excuses.

A question I have is - is there a method that is generally successful - short of termination or promotion - that changes this behavior? Rewards & punishment? Confrontation? Exposure? ???

Common definition vs. Clinical definition
This article was suffereing from a conflict between the Common definition and the Clinical definition. The way the term is most commonly used by lay people is to describe a method of communication using "passive" verbal attacks (e.g., a backhanded complement that can be taken two ways, setting someone up verbally, etc.). This defintion was not covered by the DSM and is in conflict with both the origin of the term and the clinical definition.

I made edits trying to remove this non-clinical "definition", which seems to be more of a mis-use of the term.


 * I think it would make for a better article to include a paragraph exploring and clarifying this lay useage, and contrasting it with the clinical use. It's always useful to point out common errors.  ~{wikinewbie} —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.194.10.183 (talk) 08:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

This is an attempt to explain a common pattern as observe with passive aggression behavior, in response to the above topic.

Yes, they do have a survival mode in gainful employment to hide the anger, Role playing is something I have observed in this behavior. They use perfected social skills and are always seem very nice to people. An intimate relationship is another story altogether. It requires some negotiation in relationships in order for them to survive. My observation is they cannot make a definite stance on anything. Yes, I do not like that or Yes, I am angry about this situation is prolonged into endless sulking, avoiding discussions about important matters, avoidance of any problem solving technique, and procrastination until the point of no return.

Procrastination is used until the situation becomes red hot, almost explosive. Requests of combined efforts to solve problems is none existent until the situation becomes volital. I believe the volitive behavior as an end product that gives the passive agressive person  a huge stress reduction. Granted, this is by no means peaceful nor functional resolution to problems. Nor, does it solve in real functional goals. Goals become somewhat non existent and the behavior continues.

For intance, we moved he did not express his displeasure and sulked and complained for months. Only a year later did I find out his anger and why.

Passive aggression is a topic new to me, so do not take my viewpoints has clinical and complete.

Sagewind 18:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Citing Cecil Adams is not valid. He is not an expert in the field of psychology and merely cites information from experts. Is it possible to cite someone else? Thanks

Gossip
Could gossip be a type of passive aggressive behavior? E.g., if you have a conflict with someone in the workplace, rather than confronting them directly, you gossip about them? Sarsaparilla (talk) 19:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Reference
The following section was removed from the reference section of the page. It reads like an advertisement, and appears to be original research by the person who added it. The book mentioned also does not appear to be cited in the Wikipedia entry.

"Overcoming Passive-Aggression: How To Stop Hidden Anger From Spoiling Your Relationships, Career and Happiness" by Tim Murphy, PhD and Loriann Hoff Oberlin, MS (Marlowe, 2005) -- a book that explores characteristics we have all seen at home, work, school, in relationships -- virtually everywhere. It has the capacity to leave us holding the angry person's frustration or rage without our even knowing it because we've learned to grant "free passes" to these people and to this behavior, without realizing it. Additionally, there's much research in the scientific and consumer-based literature that hidden anger harms your health. This book offers an entire chapter about this.

Read more about passive-aggression and hidden anger that this book unravels, at the author's website: www.loriannoberlin.com

You have my permission, as one of the book's authors, to use this on Wikipedia -- We reference Scott Wetzler's book and have quoted him. Both men and women experience passive-aggression. "Overcoming Passive-Aggression" is much more current -- worth mentioning since this is an all-encompassing book for both genders and for both the one who is angry/passive-aggressive and the person coping with such behavior.

Loriann Oberlin, MS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.221.197.20 (talk) 18:13, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Apparent contradiction?
It says that PA behaviour is "resistance to following authoritative instructions". Then we find an example of a person which takes a lot of time to get ready for a party but in this case there are no "authoritative instructions"... so maybe the definition is not completely correct or the example is wrong?--Pokipsy76 (talk) 13:23, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The Straight Dope: What is "passive-aggressive? WP:RS?
How can the content and first ref The Straight Dope: What is "passive-aggressive? be a reliable source when Cecil Adams is a name, generally assumed to be a pseudonym, which designates the uncertain author of The Straight Dope, a popular question and answer column published in The Chicago Reader since 1973. The author is believed to be Ed Zotti, who claims to be Adams' "assistant and editor"? How can we base anything off that? Ward20 (talk) 03:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * You're right about the source not being up to par, however I hope that in the end we don't completely strike this 'Cecil Adams' reference completely. It was an interesting read -- perhaps it could be moved to external links? Macduffman (talk) 16:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You're both wrong. Neither the DSM nor the straight dope is a reliable source since personality disorders as so difficult to classify and study, so we have to settle for sub-par sources in this article (unless someone has a better idea?). FWIW there are plenty of mediocre refs in the computer software articles. The DSM once classified homosexuality as a mental disorder (and there a couple of psychiatrists who will still "treat" it, BTW). Both the DSM and Cecil Adams have had to retract claims or substantially modify them over time. +1 for removing WP:RS. 128.32.82.78 (talk) 19:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Looking at a larger chunk of Adams' quote:

Recognizing that the definition as then formulated wasn't working but uncertain how to fix it, the compilers of DSM-IV (1994) dumped PAPD from the list of official disorders and relegated it to an appendix. The most telling complaint, in my opinion, was that merely being passive-aggressive isn't a disorder but a behavior--sometimes a perfectly rational behavior, which lets you dodge unpleasant chores while avoiding confrontation. It's only pathological if it's a habitual, crippling response reflecting a pervasively pessimistic attitude--people who suffer from PAPD expect disappointment, and gain a sense of control over their lives by bringing it about.

end of quote.

He clearly states that this is his *opinion*. What's more, there is no dialog with Adams- this is just the opinion of an popular columnist with zero accountability, no expert knowledge on the subject, called upon to write a short article each week. As far as I can see it has no place in the article, at the very least without being qualified as the non-expert opinion of a semi-anonymous weekly columnist.75.111.158.23 (talk) 08:30, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I dislike the reference to the Straight Dope Website. People going to that website to learn more find themselves being called a Pain in the Ass or an Asshole. This is not helpful. Its not helpful for people trying to learn more about Passive Aggressiveness to help someone else and its not helpful for those who have been told they were passive aggressive. It's reliability of obviously suspect from the conversation above. There are many more reliable and less insulting websites out there to reference. ~Looloomama, July 27th, 2009

Dual Diagnosis and the Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder
Perhaps I don't have enough experience with this, but I believe that the article by Sharon C. Eckleberry is acceptable because it was "produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications."

Sharon C. Ekleberry, LCSW, LSATP, Chair, Virginia State Board of Social Work, c. 2004-2005. http://www.dhp.state.va.us/Social/newsletters/WinterSpring2004.doc

Books authored by Sharon C. Ekleberry and published by reliable third parties:

Treating Co-Occurring Disorders: A Handbook for Mental Health and Substance Abuse Professionals (Haworth Addictions Treatment) (Haworth Addictions Treatment) by Edward L. Hendrickson, Marilyn Strauss Schmal, and Sharon Ekleberry (Hardcover - Mar 26, 2004)

Integrated Treatment of Co-Occurring Disorders (tent.): Personality Disorders and Addiction by Sharon Ekleberry ([Routledge] Hardcover - Jul 1, 2008) http://www.addictionarena.com/books/Integrated-Treatment-for-Co-Occurring-Disorders-isbn9780789036926 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ptypes (talk • contribs) 20:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

She had on her website (2000-c.2005) the article, "Dual Diagnosis: Addiction and Axis II Personality Disorders," which was reprinted from a professional magazine in her field on the subject, which seems to be her special interest, addiction and personality disorder. http://web.archive.org/web/20060102191029/www.toad.net/~arcturus/dd/ddhome.htm

"The following article is posted with the gracious permission of The Counselor magazine, a publication of the National Association of Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Counselors (NAADAC). Reference: Ekleberry, Sharon, LCSW, CSAC. Dual Diagnosis: Addiction and Axis II Personality Disorders. The Counselor, March/April, 1996. Pp. 7-13" Ptypes (talk) 20:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I removed it because of WP:SPS, I did a Google search but did not find the authors books as you did, so I suppose I was in error with my removal. Thank you for the diligence in finding the authors expertise and documenting it. IMO this article should have much better content and sources, I hope someone takes an interest. Ward20 (talk) 22:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced material
Remove POV unsourced material material to talk page.

"One of the more famous pop-culture cases of passive-aggressive behavior is portrayed by Laudan Behrouz in Operation Phone. Here, Behrouz clearly attempts to avoid confrontation by attempting to steer the conversation into an outwardly non-provoking method, yet inherently heavily slanted." Ward20 (talk) 22:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Passive Aggressive Behaviour and Authority
It is wrong to say that Passive Aggressive Behaviour is principly to do with rebelling against authority. It can just as well be used by authority to try to pacify perceived troublemakers or whistleblowers, techniques may include, losing information, "the silent treatment", isolation techniques, smoke and mirrors, delaying tactics etc etc. --Penbat (talk) 11:01, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Passive Agression is also a key component of bullying, where it is the covert side of bullying. --Penbat (talk) 16:02, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Psycho babble?
People have so many different views upon what PA really is, and being merely a layman in the field, I looked it up here to get some answers. Alas, I got none. The whole idea of an encyclopedic article is to present a topic in a rational and verifiable manner - to explain the processes involved, the characteristics, the origins, the theories, and to denounce myths and faulty interpretations. I am sorry, but I cannot honestly see how this article explains any of the kind at all.

The perhaps least informative section was this one:

Common signs

There are certain behaviors that help identify passive-aggressive behavior. [3]


 * Ambiguity
 * Avoiding responsibility by claiming forgetfulness
 * Blaming others
 * Chronic lateness and forgetfulness
 * Complaining
 * Does not express hostility or anger openly (e.g., expresses it instead by leaving notes)
 * Fear of authority
 * Fear of competition
 * Fear of dependency
 * Fear of intimacy (infidelity as a means to act out anger): The passive aggressive often can't trust. Because of this, they guard themselves against becoming intimately attached to someone.
 * Fosters chaos
 * Intentional inefficiency
 * Making excuses
 * Losing things
 * Lying
 * Obstructionism
 * Procrastination
 * Resentment
 * Resists suggestions from others
 * Sarcasm
 * Stubbornness
 * Sullenness
 * Willful withholding of understanding

A passive-aggressive person may not have all of these behaviors, and may have other non-passive-aggressive traits.

If one is to believe the last statement here, virtually everybody will fall into the category of being PA! Qv. "may not have all of these" means that is sufficient to only sport a few of them, and still be considered PA. This rather reminds me of Holberg's Erasmus Montanus: "A stone cannot fly. Mother cannot fly. Therefor mother is a stone."

--Sparviere (talk) 15:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Personality Disorder Confusion
I agree with some of the comments made here that the definition of what constitutes "passive-aggressive" behavior is vague and inconsistent. I also agree that the status of "passive-aggressive personality disorder" should be made more clear. My understanding is the same as in the article, that it has been moved to the appendix of the most recent DSM because it was determined the further research was needed. However, if not this page, then another page specifically focusing on the "disorder" should be made which mentions the state of current research. It has also come to my attention that another term- "negativistic personality disorder" has arisen based on some of that research which has found that passive-aggressive behaviors are related to a larger pattern of persistent negativism. I don't have any references to provide for these statements, they are based on my personal experiences with personality problems and discussions with my psychiatrist. Apparently the MMPI-II- (The Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory version 2) can diagnose this newer set of behaviors that i mentioned, so some research into this test might clear up some of the confusion Mathiusdragoon (talk) 22:39, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Two passiveaggressive articles
I think that there are two passive aggressive behavior articles. The 2nd one is located here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive_behavior. The difference is that this article has 2 dashes and that 2nd article only has one —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.155.236.211 (talk) 04:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Wait, no there isn't my bad —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.155.236.211 (talk) 04:23, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Millon's variations
User:4wajzkd02 I think you misunderstood. The whole section is covered by citation "Millon, Theodore, Personality Disorders in Modern Life, 2004". I have the book in front of me. The change reflects the fact that Millon does not suggest that more than one passive-aggressive variation in an individual is possible.--Penbat (talk) 17:43, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * 4wajzkd02 probably assumed that those were subtypes. MichaelExe (talk) 18:14, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Penbat, for clarifying! I did misunderstand. Thanks again, --4wajzkd02 (talk) 18:51, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps an article content RFC is in order
I notice some deletion/reversion is occurring with this article. Rather than devolve into an edit war, perhaps an WP:RFC on the content in question should be started? Does anyone agree? --4wajzkd02 (talk) 15:07, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Please see my comments here regarding the "Kantor dispute". Cheers, --4wajzkd02 (talk) 15:31, 3 November 2009 (UTC)