Talk:Passport/Archive 3

Removal and proposal
With the winding down and admin closure of the poll, as well as its delisting at WP:CENT I have gone ahead and deleted all the visa-free sections. Whilst doing so I was shocked to see what a horrifying state many passport articles are in, quite a few of them had a 'References' section void of any content at all (not even a (replace "Country name" with the appropriate versions of the country's name). --Tetromino (talk) 08:05, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks Tetromino, that looks like the right categories; I think the maps could go onto the "foreign relations" category as well. Edward Vielmetti (talk) 15:29, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * 75 pages, 67 maps. Edward Vielmetti (talk) 15:30, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * 81 pages, 72 maps. Edward Vielmetti (talk) 00:17, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I had a request to rescue and merge the various information for Chinese residents who hold passports of Macau and Hong Kong. I'm not convinced that I can do this accurately, so if someone in this project has the detail orientation necessary to do this rescue I'd appreciate it.  From my talk page
 * Hi Edward. I have added a subheading at the top of the article Visa requirements for Chinese citizens concerning the different visa requirements for Chinese citizens who have the right of abode in Mainland China, Hong Kong SAR and Macau SAR. Would you be able to transfer the former content from visa-free travel section of the Hong Kong SAR passport and Macau SAR passport articles to the linked articles in the subheading of Visa requirements for Chinese citizens please? Many thanks Bonus bon (talk) 17:44, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Checklist for elements of a good passport page
Sigh. You go to write a compromise, and people keep fighting the old battles (while you go and try to recreate the bits that were damaged).

Before we go to decide which elements of the page should or should not be on a mythical "perfect" passport page, I'd like to see an inventory of the page elements that *are* on a passport page, so that someone faced with a blank page like Haitian passport could get some idea of what they might look for.

Care to start, please? Section and element names would be good. I'm thinking things like pictures of the cover and inside pages are easy, a narrative about getting one, some history, any controversy. But help me out - I want to make Haitian passport better (because heaven help you if you own one). What do I do? Edward Vielmetti (talk) 23:32, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Great. Finally the beginning of a Passport MOS. Please don't think your efforts are not sufficiently appreciated. You have done much to move this dispute on, as I have said previously. Do you mind if we take some time over this? Perhaps get some specific help on putting a manual of style together? RashersTierney (talk) 23:43, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Edward, for trying to get this matter resolved. And yes, choosing a passport page to edit and improve, like the Haitian one, or Eritrean passport, which is currently marked for AfD, would be a good start. Some of the energy that has gone into debating the issues needs to be put to work in a positive way to improve the articles that are sorely lacking. However, I don't know how to find sources for the information that needs to be in the articles, other than googling the subject. Anyone know of any sources? --Funandtrvl (talk) 23:44, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * When doing related research a couple of years ago,I came on a ref. to a paper database intended to be used by immigration officials. (Lever-arch type to be updated regularly) As far as I recall it was to be used to verify the authenticity of various foreign passports at border points. I remember that it was hugely expensive (order of $ 1000) but I don't recall its title or publisher. It was the only publication I ever came across that appeared to deal with 'all' contemporary passports in a comprehensive way. Don't know if that rings a bell with anyone. Sources on non English-speaking countries' passports are thin on the ground, which is why many of the articles were not developed. RashersTierney (talk) 02:57, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I did some looking and found a few products but also a lot of sketchy stuff.  Edward Vielmetti (talk) 04:35, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think we should particularly restrict passport articles with a grand guideline or anything, though stylistic recommendations would not go astray. As a bare minimum I suggest photos of the cover and data page, as well as a description (and translation, if applicable) of both (including all data fields). Additionally, we could have photos of the first inside page, a transcription and translation of the passport note, a history section, historical photos or scans, documentation on the different types of passports - to whom they are issued and why, any unique features and any relevant passport issuing policy of the nation in question. I would like to suggest Australian passport as the prototype here, because I believe it is in a format well-suited to any sort of other passport, whether Togolese or British. — what a crazy random happenstance 06:19, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Those all sound reasonable. I find myself sourcing also things like where you can go to get a passport replaced, who issues them (so you get a link back to the issuing authority and thus authoritative information), the cost of the passport, and other largely pragmatic things.  It's also helpful in many cases to mention in some detail just what kind of travel freedom this document brings - e.g. the note on Haitian passport that should say it gets you hardly anywhere - and any notable cases of forgery or false documents.  My preference would be to have the history at the bottom, not the top, so that the stuff above the fold answers the question "oh shit I need to replace my passport what do I do" rather than "what did that passport look like in 1934".  Edward Vielmetti (talk) 07:22, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree. We are here to document the passport in an encyclopaedic fashion, not act as a governmental information portal. If someone wants to write a how-to on renewing passports it belongs on Wikibooks, it is out of our project scope as an encyclopaedia. When you come to an encyclopaedia to read about a passport, stuff like what it looked like 1934 is exactly what you're after, not a guide on renewing it. I also don't think we can put the 'Haitian passports are useless' thing on there, I see it as a violation of WP:SYN. — what a crazy random happenstance 08:43, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

OK per previous section we have reached a consensus to include:
 * the link for the Visa requirements for ... article (instead of making it an orphan article) which is by wiki rules done through supplemental article template and section heading with possibly thumbnail of an image which is also previously why the compromise was reached with two users that wanted to erase every trace of this from Wikipedia and opposed by about 12 other regular users.

I think that we also need to include
 * history (if applicable)
 * passport design and technical specs
 * types and issuing

And I think we need a consensus that will say that Can we reach a consensus on these as well?--Avala (talk) 19:40, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * these are article guidelines, something we are aiming for but if there are specifics for some article (Israeli passport or Kosovo passport) they not only should be but must be added to the article even though there is no list in guideline that mentions entry refusal or passport recognition as an issue to be covered. Other things are passport messages, page drawings, second passport, specific agreements regarding non-nationals etc.
 * No. A section header + map is unacceptable for a myriad of reasons, and your points are obviously biased. Unless you're willing to cast your prejudices aside, I don't see this going anywhere. — what a crazy random happenstance 05:03, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Unacceptable to you doesn't equal unacceptable to the community. If you continue violating the fragile compromise consensus we will have to declare it non existent and go to the previous consensus which means full reinserting of the visa free section to the passport article. Now if that's what you want, go ahead and violate the consensus.--Avala (talk) 12:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually no, the previous consensus, as approved by an administrator, was to delete the sections entirely. This compromise is based on good-faith and you are obviously acting against the spirit within which it was reached. The map is unacceptable. It goes against the manual of style to have sections void of content, and the map is irrelevant to the passport article. If you are unable to accede to the compromise, it is you who will be the lone editor left out in the cold. The rest of us want this compromise to work, and this compromise was reached only under the assumption that ALL this crap will be gone from the passport articles (as was demonstrated on the Turkish passport/Visa requirements for Turkish citizens articles). You appear to be having a WP:OWN issue here. — what a crazy random happenstance 13:58, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Approved by administrator? Where is that in rules? Admin just closed the discussion and that is his job per rules, he didn't endorse it nor it would make any difference. He closed it per what was there, however because the discussion was canvassed the consensus was gone the very next day - per WP:CCC. I suggest you read WP:CCC, yes WP:CCC, please click on it. I don't how else to make you read that consensus has changed, I am getting desperate so that is why I posted it three times. I wouldn't be going pointy if you actually bothered to read what we write several thousand words before.--Avala (talk) 17:23, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I totally fully agree with Avala on "If you continue violating the fragile compromise consensus we will have to declare it non existent and go to the previous consensus which means full reinserting of the visa free section to the passport article". No he is not having any WP:OWN issue here. Stop giving here randomly policy pages that you've never read so you could show you know a lot! I really really wonder; What is your problem with us, and with those articles, Happenstance? You call the whole bunch of effort "CRAP" & "garbage". Actually you violated too many policies such as : WP:Assume_good_faith. Is that how you contribute and/or respect to Wikipedia? Don't forget, actually we are cleaning your own CR4P. So, help us now. How many articles did you create for solving-the-problem's sake? ZERO. How many sections did you delete? more than 250! Why don't you help us? Don't forget that, YOU created the problem, not us. I bet you had some personal problems about those sections. That's why you're so angry on them. But i am sorry here is too free to care about your personal matters. "as was demonstrated on the Turkish passport articles", no it will not be demonstrated anymore. I'm just in a "testing". If you will continue to play with Serbian_passport, I will re-include all those sections back. GOD, ARE YOU HERE ONLY TO OPPOSE EVERYTHING?! Stop this. Enough! --Ozguroot (talk) 18:04, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * No, and what you say borders on a personal attack. I was calmly debating this before you showed up - get over yourself. Unlike you, I do actually have an understanding of the policy to which I refer. The previous consensus reached was to delete the sections entirely, and the compromise reached later was to move ALL visa related data to the other page. I only agreed to the consensus under the assumption that it would be implemented in exactly the way presented - Avala's edits are an attempt to subvert the compromise and are most definitely against it in spirit. I repeat, it goes against the WP:MOS to have blank sections. If you want to go back to edit warring, go ahead. You'll bear the consequences. — what a crazy random happenstance 07:28, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, per WP:CCC there is a new consensus which is either use the compromise solution which is include a section with a map and link to separate article, or if this is not accepted by, by this time, minority of users, it is decided to go back to the full insertion of the visa free section. And sorry Happenstance, but I don't see how can you be surprised at attacks on you by other users when you tell them their efforts are crap and garbage. If that is your idea how a calm debate should look like then you are wrong. --Avala (talk) 17:23, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I see you guys have found a new "consensus"....
Ah dear. So it appears that you guys have now decided on moving the exact same content minus the introductory sentence to some different title. I don't really see the sense in that, but so be it. (It also has me wondering how long this "consensus" will last...) If that's really the "consensus" (for whatever darn reason), I will withdraw the AfD-nomination provided someone will go ahead with the page-moves ASAP. Please confirm. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 03:58, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * PS: Could these one-liners at least remain redirects until that magical "someone" creates actual content? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 04:01, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * No. If you don't like these articles, be bold and expand them. We don't have a deadline and these articles have obvious potential. Your laziness is not an excuse for deletion. — what a crazy random happenstance 04:19, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * To be fair, it is quite possible that Seb does not have the expertise to expand them. I certainly would not know where to start.  However, I suggest withdrawing the AfD simply because the articles could potentially be expanded.  If no RSs appear to aid in that process, then renom.  However (again), I found info on misuse of the Saint Lucian passport that could be incorporated   That took me about one minute...  If the other are that easy then this editor has completely failed to attempt to rescue these articles before noming them.  He might want to review WP:BEFORE, especially "If the page can be improved, this should be solved through regular editing" and "Read the article and review its history to properly understand its topic. Some articles may have been harmed by vandalism or poor editing. Stubs and imperfect articles are awaiting further development, and so the potential of the topic should be considered."  --Jubilee♫ clipman  05:00, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * At least thats one less bush fire to worry about while we try to get in the order of 180 new articles off the ground (130+ 'Visa required for....' and 50 odd 'shell' passport articles that need development. Thanks to all who continue to work on these. We'll get there yet. RashersTierney (talk) 12:05, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Passport manual of style, draft 1
Sigh.

Due to continued squabbling, it appears that there needs to be a process by which we can determine whether a passport article is of good quality, in order to avoid the risk of edit warfare breaking out again. I am not pleased by this and I wish that this minority of editors would get to the task of getting 180 new articles off the ground rather than engaging in behavior for which it is an act of great faith to assume good faith.

That said, there is some evolving catalog of what makes a good passport article, what makes a great passport article, and what sections detract from the quality of a passport article by not being about the passport at all. I will list them, in handy bullet point format, and ask that editors update the list with examples as best they know them of passport articles that exemplify the genre.


 * Photo of the passport cover. This is the first graphic that should be on the page.  For articles without cover photos, sourcing this should be a primary task.  See Category:Images of passports, which currently includes 33 files.  Apply an appropriate copyright tag, as well as , lest some bot come and delete your image.
 * Lede paragraph. A really good lede paragraph will encapsulate all of the most salient points of all of the main sections in the article, all in a minimum of words.
 * History, contemporary and ancient, of the design, acceptance, use and developments of travel documents in the country.
 * Gallery of historical photos of the passport, inside and out; again note copyright tags.
 * Physical appearance of passport, detailing colors, text inscribed therein, biometric data encoded, watermarking or other special papers, other security features etc.
 * Rights to a passport; should reference Country nationality law article, if it exists
 * Types of passports issued.
 * Fees, duration of passport issuance, replacement of lost passports, and other practical items for travelers as appropriate to the country.
 * Visa requirements. Create as a section, with  .  Copy the lede of that article, which typically includes a count of the number of countries for which visa-free travel is available.  Note exceptions, countries to which travel is forbidden with or without a visa, and anything notable.  If the prose characterization of the visa requirements warrants a map to illustrate it, use an appropriate map.
 * References, external links, and "see also" sections provide externally verifiable sources and internal references
 * Appropriate categories are in each article, including Category:Passports by country

In addition, there are some passports and countries which are exceptional which require exceptional treatment, e.g. Kosovo passport, Israeli passport, Iroquois passport e.g. which will be expected to contain information relevant to those countries and nations distinctive history.

In addition, there may be other sections variously named in various articles that are encyclopedic and useful and helpful and well sourced, and these should not be removed strictly because they are not in this list; however, they should be less prominent in each case than the core passport information.

In addition, there are some countries where information on the ground is scarce, and considerable latitude must be paid to improving these articles systematically in lieu of any stylistic guidelines on uniform design; this may include sourcing information which would not be in an exceptionally good article, but that is useful as scaffolding in building a better one.

In addition, there are some countries where there are exceptionally detailed details available, and considerable latitude must be placed to allow those details to reside in primary articles, e.g. Physical features of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region passport, which would otherwise overwhelm the main entry.

You will note carefully that I did mention maps. It is possible, even likely, that some sections of the passport article will include lists of other countries to which travel has some special and notable status. It is in all cases relevant to illustrate these facts with a map. However, these maps should be in all cases less prominent than any photos, scans, or other descriptions of the passport itself. Maps should be accompanied by a narrative that summarizes, characterizes, or explains the map in such a way that if the map were removed the section could stand on its own.

Category:Passport stubs currently contains stub-class passport articles. Some of these are better than others. A passport article is a stub if the photo is missing, if there are no external references, if there is no description of the physical characteristics of the passport, or if the editor thinks it needs to be.

That's my story, and I'm sticking with it, subject to subsequent edits, which inevitably there will be. Edward Vielmetti (talk) 09:23, 30 January 2010 (UTC) update with visa requirements section recommendation Edward Vielmetti (talk) 09:56, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ed, good work, but there's no need to spam talks with your announcement, we're following the discussion here. :) I have a couple of notes and suggestions, mainly on the visa-free section. That section shouldn't exist on the vast majority of passport articles. It is not needed, it can never really expand beyond one sentence without encroaching on the Visa-free articles, it looks bad, it is only border-line related to the passport itself, it violates the manual of style, and the map should most definitely not be there. There are special circumstances - Kosovo, Taiwan, Israel, etc. but by and large these sections are a no-no. The Physical features of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region passport article which you mention should be merged to the main article now that the visa-free stuff is gone, it's exactly the kind of excellent content that should exist in an article the sole purpose of which is to document the passport. No need to unnecessarily fork articles and duplicate content. — what a crazy random happenstance 11:17, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "It violates the manual of style". Please point out which sections of WP:MOS you think apply; that runs to 53 printed pages on my system and I'm not sure which portion you are referring to.  Edward Vielmetti (talk) 13:48, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * One element: WP:MOS looks to be relevant
 * MOS:IMAGES should be relevant in general, though I don't see specific guidance. 14:00, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Can I propose the establishment of Manual of Style (passport-related articles), using Edward's outline as a starting point. This can then be refined through discussion through its own Talk Page. This MOS would have to go through a formal nomination process. The main subject of this discussion can then continue uninterrupted. Thoughts please. RashersTierney (talk) 14:58, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's leave that until this discussion concludes, right now I am afraid the discussion of any such MOS proposal will be hijacked. For now it is more fitting to discuss the implementation of the proposal here. — what a crazy random happenstance 08:14, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Visa policy articles already on AfD
As afraid visa policy articles are attracting attention of other Wikipedians who find them unnecessary. The first one to be tagged is the Visa policy of Mongolia article. You can see the tagged version here even though User:Dream Focus removed the deletion template we can only expect for more of these cases to surface. The agenda to get rid of visa, visa free and passport articles seems to be unfolding nicely for one user that has it.--Avala (talk) 16:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Consensus and Compromise
OK we had a 0 - long established consensus to include visa free sections in passport articles.

Then we had:
 * 1 Talk:Passport - consensus to remove them

Then we had:
 * 2 Talk:Passport Talk:Passport Talk:Passport - consensus to put them back

Then we had
 * 3 Talk:Passport Talk:Passport - compromise solution to move the visa-free sections to a separate article while keeping the link for this new supplemental article through a proper template (Template:See also & Template:Main) with an image and one sentence as it can bee seen all over Wikipedia.

Each time consensus changes were made per WP:CCC, and despite consensus changing quickly due to poor organization of discussion as well as ignoring what was agreed on and the discussion itself (we can see many pleas by users asking for them to be listened to but no response except for blind reverts) and insulting other users (calling their contributions crap and garbage) it is still valid. As we have consistent violation of the latest consensus (ie. compromise solution) by one editor I think it is only fair to go back to the consensus established before that and that is to include the information on visa free travel fully into the articles on passports.--Avala (talk) 17:36, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see how you can possibly think this latest edit of yours 1} is in any way constructive. I'll drop by again when editors have stopped throwing rattles out of the pram.I genuinely hope others are not provoked into a resumption of warring. It seems we may need some outside perspective on this Mad Hatter's Tea Party. [[User:RashersTierney|RashersTierney] (talk) 20:35, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I find it ludicrous to believe that just because consensus is constantly being "supposedly" violated, it warrants reversion to the consensus before this brouhaha began. The discussion though which has taken place here over the last n sections does show that despite the presence of a supposedly strong consensus, people who are unaware of the shift and are redirected here are left baffled to ask, only to not get the responses they're hoping for.  From what I can see, we need a stronger consensus. --Sky Harbor (talk) 01:23, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Avala, your assessment of the first consensus was just about correct, but your understanding of the rest of them is skewed (to put it politely). You're also confusing consensus with precedent. The discussion that followed the first consensus is understandable and to be expected, it does not overturn the poll which was very widely publicised (on WP:Centralised discussion and WP:Village pump (proposals)) and closed unambiguously by an administrator (as opposed to you). You're completely off on the compromise, please show me where Edward suggests "an image and one sentence as it can bee seen all over Wikipedia" - I am 106% sure he hasn't, because if he had I would not have acceded to the compromise. You have resumed edit warring, and I would like to know in what way it is constructive. There are now many users following this discussion, none of which are interested in your childish outbursts, and I can assure you that if you continue to edit war it will only reflect poorly on you. — what a crazy random happenstance 05:14, 31 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I've just read that: User_talk:Happenstance. It seems RashersTierney really wants to find a solution, at least he wants to do "something", an idea.. But you appear again, Happenstance. The maps are unacceptable to me, I'm sorry. You ALWAYS, but JESUS, ALWAYS oppose EVERYTHING!! Seriously, are you joking or what? They are unacceptable to you, ok, but what about the rest? Do you always change whatever is unacceptable to "you" in here? Do you own the Wikipedia? What about the community, the others, the editors, the users, the people? What if they are acceptable to Avala? For God's sake look at these contributions, time, effort he spent on [his article]. He is taking care of that article since 2006, that is what i call CONTRIBUTION! It seems that when he was a member of Wikipedia since 2004, you were not even here. Now, today, he doesn't even has a right to include a little map even on the article that HE CREATED, and the one who did not do anything for that article, has right to remove almost the whole content? No, this is not the Barbie's puzzle. By the way; this is the only "real" contribution of you (before a 5 times of deletions from you) on the article in subject: here. Now thats funny, those visa-free sections were totally ok & totally valid and so encyclopedic for you in the time when you were editing it/them, but now, TADA, the same sections from the same articles suddenly became for you "unnecessary" "unencyclopaedic" "useless" "garbage" "crap" today? What a surprise! They are perfectly acceptable to me, to Avala and to the rest too, it seems. At least nobody seem to "fight with all the power" to destroy them, as much as you do, here. I would like to revert all those articles as they were before. Please do not disturb us and the people here. You took a HUGE time of us for NOTHING, i wish we'd spend our times to improve those articles, instead of answering you or undoing your deletions, i am sure today they were all almost PERFECT. For God's sake, wake up! --Ozguroot (talk) 01:29, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * In other words, a WP:OWN violation, as Rashers correctly noted in that section. I have been an editor since 2005, but I don't think that confers any sort of senior or superior status on me. I have a good number of edits to passport articles, including two I created, and simply because you can't be bothered looking them up don't mean they aren't there. I have been here all along too. I am not denying Avala has been a great contributor, but he has always had a problem yielding to community consensus, and following policy. How is edit warring meant to be helpful? The maps are unacceptable, not just to me, but they go against the compromise reached. You cannot reach a compromise, and then like a broken record just "compromise" your way back to your original position. — what a crazy random happenstance 03:48, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd say it is you having a problem to accept the consensus here. You can very well see that there is a dozen editors on this page who oppose your idea and who agreed to compromise with you so that you would stop destroying their contributions any further. But since you couldn't accept even that consensus, since you wanted to erase every trace of efforts and contributions of other users I think it is safe to assume you will oppose everything and go on with destructive editing so there is no need to go with the compromise solution anymore and we need to return to go to the latest consensus we have and that is to include this content in the article. But you choose to ignore it, you never answer any questions raised, any specific points, you just go on with banging your head against the wall. If you were actually so comfortable with your consensus you wouldn't have to bother so much here, but instead in case you haven't noticed you had to reply to dozen different angry editors here. Doesn't that tell you something? I sign what Ozguroot said (and in case you are wondering why he is writing in caps and bold, that is to attract your attention because you can see at least three times on this page him openly begging you to listen to him for once and then nothing, nothing, nothing from your behalf, so it seems we have to get pictorial in order to discuss issues with you). I find it almost ridiculous at what lengths you are going to remove some maps, I'd almost ask you if you have anything better to do on Wikipedia then going into such subjective disputes. Finally I am willing to give compromise one more shot. If you again go to destructive rampage of 200 articles against the community will I will take a final view on this that you are not willing to reach a compromise with a dozen editors who oppose you and that you just want things to be your way no matter what for the sake of it but like in real life such behavior cannot be accepted.--Avala (talk) 16:37, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for writing this, Avala. What Happenstance is doing is, in my opinion, vandalism in disguise.Qwerta369 (talk) 17:33, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Guys and Gals, we have a working solution that is in the main being respected and implemented effectively. Lets not loose sight of the distance we've come and concentrate on the considerable work still to be done. There are issues of retaining, as far as possible, the 'histories' and moving 'shell' articles to incubation where they can be developed in a sheltered environment, safe from misguided AfD on sight. RashersTierney (talk) 21:03, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, the irony of being told I don't listen by Avala of all people. I have repeatedly expressed my viewpoint, rather than addressing it you just scream that I don't listen. This is just like your baffling accusations of canvassing. I agreed to this, as did you: "The contentious "visa free travel" section that caused 250 edit wars will be pulled to its own page, its own category, and reviewed and sourced and improved accordingly". Please point out where it says that limited visa-free sections will be kept on passport pages, as you insist on doing - it seems to me to be saying exactly the opposite. The map is decorative, it is not linked to the physical nature of the passport in any way, and it does not belong on the article. There are inherent problems with having a mostly blank section that can almost never expand beyond one sentence without encroaching on the visa-free article. I have said all this before, yet you conveniently continue ignoring it. Rashers, I am not sure how you plan to safeguard this proposal, when there are editors intent on weakening it from the very start of its implementation. — what a crazy random happenstance 05:49, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

stopppppp thissss!!!!!! stop destroying romanian passport article!!!!! you fucked all these beautiful articles!!!!dont you understand nobody likes your idea in here????? guys, ignore that communist minded retarded hapenstance and continue your great works!!!!
 * (user warned per WP:NPA Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 22:06, 1 February 2010 (UTC))
 * Awesome! I haven't been called a communist yet this discussion. Now I just need to be called an anarchist and fascist and I get the hat-trick. — what a crazy random happenstance 05:52, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I strongly disagree with such personal insults. However if you don't want them to happen, you need to stop driving people to that point where they loose control. Also you need to wonder how come so many people went there in context of consensus. If you even have a couple of users openly insulting you and a dozen others opposing you maybe it's time to let it go and accept finally you are in the minority and that your sticking to your views like this is the cause behind all the friction.--Avala (talk) 12:05, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * People get fired up over the smallest things, that is not my fault. Rarely a day goes by when I am not insulted and attacked on Wikipedia for simple frankness, but I don't go flaccid and complacent in the face of criticism - I am emboldened. You have again failed to answer my points, and yet had I not pointed this out, I am certain you would subsequently accuse me (again) of ignoring yours. What is it about these irrelevant maps that you find so pressing as to endanger and even attempt to renege on the already precarious compromise? I am split between calling it WP:OWN issues and a simple ego-trip. Please help enlighten me. — what a crazy random happenstance 16:52, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not the smallest things really, you call their contributions crap and garbage which is something you should use with caution even with open vandalism let alone subjective views and then you are surprised with a reaction but OK. I already answered that this is the MOS that you can see in virtually every article that uses templates for supplemental articles, and you can start viewing this from the article of this talk page - Passport.--Avala (talk) 20:25, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I beg your pardon? I didn't quite understand that; please clarify. To which WP:MOS section are you referring? What template? What can I find on this talk page? (Not being nasty - honestly perplexed.) — what a crazy random happenstance 02:01, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Sigh. We already discussed this. It's not this talk page but the article of it. I even linked it for you, don't what else can I do, link three times? Passport Passport Passport. You can see it in virtually every article that deals with main/see also templates and I have no intention of violating the style of Wikipedia. But this was all discussed to detail before no need to go there again.--Avala (talk) 10:48, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I still have no idea what you're talking about, so I repeat, please clarify. If you are merely talking about the fact that there are sections with "see main" tags elsewhere in Wikipedia, yes, you are correct, but they do not exist solely to transclude a largely irrelevant image. Your farce of a see-main section, can on most passport articles never extend beyond this irrelevant image and perhaps one sentence, if that. That is not an encyclopaedic article section - that is barely an SMS message. It fails to address my other points too, most notably relevance to the physical passport itself (the very reason they were forked). — what a crazy random happenstance 11:13, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Warning: User:Happenstance is on revert rampage again, just so that articles could be his way for the sake of it which is spoiled editing IMO, and violating very fragile compromise. If this continues I believe we can again go back to the consensus nr.2 and user Happenstance will have to accept that it is solely his fault that a possibility for this to be solved so that he could be partially satisfied and we can be partially satisfied failed because of his stubbornness to have it his way or no way. It reminds me of a The Dog and the Shadow story somewhat, Happenstance was lucky to get a dozen of us to accept to compromise with him even though we didn't have to, but it wasn't enough for him, he didn't want a compromise, he wanted it all, even beyond what he could get and is now on a brink of loosing it all.--Avala (talk) 12:55, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * In other words, you have no argument so you shall throw a tantrum. As I have said before, your understanding of the community discussion seems to be flawed (to put it kindly). If you wish to break the compromise, go ahead - it most likely won't be me that subsequently reverts and warns you, but one of the other editors who have no interest in seeing you destroy a working relationship. Your attempt to reinsert the maps is little more than an attempt to weaken the compromise as a prelude to reinserting the entirety of the visa-free information in the passport articles - that's the only reason why I can see you attempting to be so threatening. Alas, this is not a highly charged international situation, and I am not giving you casus belli. I am acting in the interest of the article, and to the best of my knowledge passports aren't issued with magical maps that show where they can be used. In the interest of maintaining Edward's compromise, I propose another compromise - the see-main sections can stay but the maps go. Would you find this agreeable? — what a crazy random happenstance 13:55, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I would also like to put the little thumbnail map for a better view and easier access of 'Visa requirements'. Wow. That seems much more better, actually: Turkish passport. There isn't any violation, any illegal act, a fake/false information, neither a forbidden or a dangerous image for the visitors health. I implemented the 'Gallery of historic images' section too, as requested. Thanks. --Ozguroot (talk) 15:57, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with you Ozguroot. It is a shame that we have to reach some odd compromises just to tame one user from blind reverts but there is a red line which should not be crossed. And that red line should be that we are not going to compromise in making passport articles look worse than other articles just because as I hear one user actually has an agenda to eventually bring those passport articles to such a poor state that the majority of them will be up for deletion. Well that is not the road that we'll take.--Avala (talk) 01:10, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I offer you a compromise and you try to force the discussion to come to a close. Very telling, and quite pathetic. I have stated about five times why I think these maps are not acceptable, you haven't stated once why you think they are. You cannot close a debate by brute force. I would be OK with mediation if you so wish. I am the good guy here who is trying to make progress. I have offered well-rounded arguments, I have offered compromises, and now even mediation. You just edit war and threaten. — what a crazy random happenstance 04:23, 4 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm waiting for you all to calm down before I even start to try to contribute to this thing you claim is an encyclopedia again. Good luck in whatever it is you are trying to do.  Edward Vielmetti (talk) 04:42, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Considering what I have had to put up with from Avala or Ozguroot, I think I have remained admirably calm. I have created a request for mediation, since this isn't going anywhere and if we continue to edit war sooner or later if will just end in tears for all of us. — what a crazy random happenstance 05:03, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Since I was asked on my talkpage to share my opinion, here it is. I moderately oppose the thumbnail map on the main passport page, for two reasons: (1) it lacks any context, and (2) at thumbnail resolution it's almost completely useless. To me it's not an issue of what material "belongs" on the passport page, just that it's unhelpful and potentially confusing. Contrary to Ozguroot above I don't think the thumbnail on the passport page allows "easier access" to visa information, since the map file by itself also lacks explanation and context, and when you're looking at the file it's awkward to get to the visa article by scrolling down to File Links. The one thing, in my mind, that would make a thumbnail potentially useful on the passport page would be if it were linked to the appropriate visa requirements article rather than to the image file. While I'm at it, having given the matter consideration, I should say the following: (3) I supported, and continue to support, the splitting of visa issues into their own articles, instead of (a) deleting them or (b) keeping them on the passport page; (4) I like the current naming scheme; and (5) I would also support a section in each main passport article containing perhaps a one-sentence summary of visa-travel issues and main-article links to the appropriate visa articles. Relegating the links to the see-also section seems to give them short shrift, in light of the strong thematic connection between the visa articles and the passport articles. All the best—  Glenfarclas   ( talk ) 20:18, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I was also asked to share my opinion, but I couldn't get from your discussion, are we here talking about thumbnail map on passport page, or keeping the visa section on passport page or separate article. I will share my opinion on both things. Keeping Visa thumbnail image on Passport page is useless if we don't have visa requirements on passport page. So here is my opinion: 1)We should have Visa-free section on PASSPORT page, like it was before someone deleted it, and got us in this mess. 2) If we can't keep the Visa-free section like it was before, then there is no point of the image on passport page.

I hope we can get back visa-free section on passport page where it belongs, and then leave the thumbnail image of visa-free section where it is suppose to be. If we are going to have separate visa-free section from passport page, there is no use of image.

I say this as contributor of Montenegrin passport. Cheers! Rave92 (talk) 22:09, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I was also asked to share my opinion on this subject. I think we should keep the visa-free section ON the passport page. I don't agree that this is misleading. Personally, I take care of both Hungarian passport and Costa Rican passport pages. I think there are enough of us in the world to take care of all the passport pages. Wikipedia is famous because it has information about EVERYTHING, so why should we take some of it away?? I think I made my point clear, we should keep the visa-free section and visa-free map on the passport main page. Thanks--Philip200291 (talk) 22:57, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * One of the questions at issue, though, is whether to keep the visa map thumbnail on the passport page if the visa material remains split off into a separate article.   Glenfarclas   ( talk ) 00:07, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I feel that there is nothing all that wrong with keeping the map (as long as it's properly sourced of course, and the image description explains that it is "as of..." and "according to...") on the main passport page. After all, the main use of passport is as travel document. (One would think that its main function is a proof of citizenship, but this actually ain't so, at least not in Canada: when one applies for a passport, one needs to present a "proof of citizenship" which can be one's birth certificate or Certificate of Canadian Citizenship; amazingly, Canadian Passport Office does not accept its own Canadian passports as a proof of citizenship, or at least it did not the last time I dealt with them! It is also a form of ID, but in practice few people use it as such other than in the international travel context). So a map depicting entry privileges granted to the passport's holders by various countries may be quite pertinent in the passport article, methinks. (In some cases one can also have the map show countries which countries recognize the passport as a valid travel document at all: some passports are not recognize world-wide - think of Republic of China, or certain countries in the Near/Middle East...). Vmenkov (talk) 15:14, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably the two most eminent theorists on 'the Passport' are John Torpey and Mark Salter. Both broadly state that the value of a passport as a 'travel document' rests on its acceptance as an identifier of citizenship. From the point of view of the receiving country, it ultimately indicates to which state an unwanted entrant may be deported. They may serve other purposes, depending entirely on who is presenting them, who is examining them and why. On the matter already resolved, we have implemented a tortuously achieved agreement on how this matter was to be approached. To casually deviate from it now would be a gross breach of faith. The 'visa free blocks' have been forked to their own articles, where these maps properly belong. The new articles are properly linked as agreed. RashersTierney (talk) 16:26, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Ozguroot canvassing again
It has been brought to my attention that Ozguroot has canvassed every single Oppose vote from this discussion and I have reported him here. I am sure any objective observer, no matter his stance on the issue, will realise just how deeply inappropriate his actions were. — what a crazy random happenstance 04:39, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Happenstance, Ozguroot did what you were supposed to do. This is not canvassing, but notifying regular editors, something that you failed to do and caused all the mess here. He also did it in neutral manner, something that you also probably wouldn't be able to do. So this is what we wanted you to do in the first place but you didn't do it. And this is what we asked you to do in the future but you failed again - probably because you once again failed to read anything that we write to you, as proven in the mediation discussion where you accused us that something that is on this page was discussed "behind closed doors" and of course didn't apologize after you were proven wrong...--Avala (talk) 16:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)