Talk:Pasta/Archive 2

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I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Pasta. Please take a moment to review my edit. You may add after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.internationalpasta.org/index.php?cat=22&item=122&lang=2
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.ilovepasta.org/nutrition.html

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External links modified
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I have just modified 5 one external links on Pasta. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120331135946/http://www.inmamaskitchen.com:80/FOOD_IS_ART/pasta/historypasta.html to http://www.inmamaskitchen.com/FOOD_IS_ART/pasta/historypasta.html
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120130083057/http://www.aspenbusinessjournal.com/article/id/736/sid/16 to http://www.aspenbusinessjournal.com/article/id/736/sid/16
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121030085829/http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/statistics/agri-food/eu_pasta_consumer_trends_en.pdf to http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/statistics/agri-food/eu_pasta_consumer_trends_en.pdf
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20130513233642/http://www.fns.usda.gov/tn/resources/FBG_Section_3-GrainsBreads.pdf to http://www.fns.usda.gov/tn/resources/FBG_Section_3-GrainsBreads.pdf
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120313125135/http://www.museodellapasta.it/index.php to http://www.museodellapasta.it/index.php

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Addition of "physical chemistry of pasta" section
I will be adding information on the molecular composition and physical properties of dried pasta. I will cover mainly extruded pasta processing through the changes that occur in cooking the pasta. Structural and chemical components of pasta including starch and gluten protein will be explored as well.

Sources:

Ambrogina Pagani, M., & De Noni, I. (2010, May). Cooking Properties and Heat Damage of Dried Pasta as Influenced by Raw Material Characteristics and Processing Conditions.Critical Reviews in Food Science and Nutrition, (50), 465-472. doi: 10.1080/10408390802437154

Petitot, M., Abecassis, J., & Micard, V. (2009). Structuring of pasta components during processing: Impact on starch and protein digestibility and allergenicity. Trends in Food Science & Technology, 20(11-12), 521-532. doi:10.1016/j.tifs.2009.06.005

Sissons, M. (2008, January). Role of durum wheat composition on the quality of pasta and bread. Food, 2(2), 75-90. Retrieved November 20, 2016.

Starch: A structural mystery. (n.d.). Retrieved November 20, 2016, from http://www.scienceinschool.org/2010/issue14/starch

Mdp155 (talk) 04:17, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Possibly useful. --Zefr (talk) 05:15, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Pasta and Noodles should be in a single article.

 * For obvious reasons. It is silly to have two separate articles about the same thing. 98.194.39.86 (talk) 00:28, 21 April 2017 (UTC)


 * "For obvious reasons" isn't going to cut it. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 03:00, 21 April 2017 (UTC)


 * How about "because the two are synonymous." (?) And it is obvious. I don't even have to look at either article to practically guarantee they are filled with mutually redundant information. How could they possibly not be? They are the same thing. They are not different. Am I being redundant? SentientParadox (talk) 02:02, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
 * But they are not synonymous. Noodle is a much broader category - Italian pasta is only one type of noodle. In the Noodle article you will see it among the more specific types of noodles listed from all over the world. - AKeen (talk) 01:05, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Pasta in Art.
I would like to adjust ever so slightly the pasta in art section of the pasta page.

I would like to add Pasta Americanata to this section. Pasta Americanata is an art pasta created by artist and chef Isak Lystad who recently invented 2 new handmade pasta forms in Italy, Retine and Retoni respectively.

Pasta Americanata was a first ever artistic approach to inventing pasta that Lystad created to protect his new pastas from ridicule in Italy. An Americanata is a word created in Italy originally in 1905 to describe outrageous American films, but eventually evolved into a word that describes anything American that tests the limits of good taste, in other words American kitsch.

Chef Lystad upon conception of his pastas, immediately thought about the potential negative response to an American chef inventing pasta in Italy, fearing that his creations would be labeled an americanata.

So before setting to work on Retine and Retoni, he set his artistic mind on the first thing that he thought of when he thought of "Pasta Americanata"... an American flag rolled into a pasta tube.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Glassblowingchef (talk • contribs) 15:34, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
 * we evaluate how much coverage to give individual aspects of a subject based on the level of coverage in independent sources. Can you provide examples of coverage of these pasta cuts? VQuakr (talk) 19:26, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Dear VQuakr,

To respond to your enquiry about the pastas, they were recently publicized and have only been open to public access for about 2 weeks, therefore there has been no independent media based on the pasta as of yet. The Pasta Americanata was debuted on July 4th, again not yet any independent media based on them because the information about the pastas has not yet reached interested media outlets.

The only mention of the pasta americanata is on www.pastaamericanata.com, whereas both retine and retoni are mentioned on both www.isaklystad.com and www.pastaamericanata.com

In defense of the new pastas and the art pasta, the last time a new handmade pasta was invented in Italy was over a century ago. If we do not give validity to such things based on the lack of media coverage I think we are looking at this the wrong way.

There is clearly a picture of a real pasta americanata provided in the description of the pasta itself. Is that photographic evidence not enough to show that it exists and is valid, regardless of whether or not it has become part of popular culture, it is undeniably art, and undeniably pasta.

I am not trying to offend you, I am only questioning the reasoning behind why the pasta needs media validation to be considered a valid part of our contemporary culture.

There is a website for the pasta americanata, www.pastaamericanata.com, this at the moment is the only media available on the subject.

Please let me know if there is anyway I can be of assistance. Thank you Glassblowingchef — Preceding unsigned comment added by Glassblowingchef (talk • contribs)
 * Then it definitely fails WP:GNG. --Vituzzu (talk) 20:14, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Even if this subject ever passes muster for the article it should not be under pasta in art. Rather, it should be under "Art in Pasta." *wink* SentientParadox (talk) 02:05, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Extrusion vs. rolling
Both extrusion and rolling methods are used to produce pasta. However, the "Pasta made fresh" section of the article states that pasta machines "extrudes the pasta through a machine 'comb' that shapes the pasta noodles as they are extruded." This is incorrect.

Extrusion compresses a material longitudinally and forces it through a die that imposes a shape. Rolling compresses a material through its thickness, but the turning of the rolls puts the material into longitudinal tension.

The Extrusion and Food extrusion articles correctly do not describe rolling as an extrusion process, and this article should be consistent with those.

I will rewrite the incorrect sentence. If there are objections, let's discuss them here. 98.247.224.9 (talk) 20:09, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. Please provide a WP:SECONDARY source for the new content. --Zefr (talk) 21:34, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Gluten Free Pasta
Me and my classmates are interested in studying food processing and food science about gluten free pasta.

What are some suitable alternative flours to make gluten free pasta?

What are the challenges in maintaining the texture and firmness of pasta by using alternative gluten free flour?

What are the modified processing methods to make gluten free pasta by using the alternatives?

What are some functional additives added in gluten free pasta?

Is there any nutritional value difference between normal pasta and gluten free pasta? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yvetteni (talk • contribs) 06:11, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

What are some variations of noodle-making technology based on heating and cooling steps in order to simplify the artisan process for making gluten free pasta?

We will be looking up the above questions regarding gluten free pasta and post them on the pasta article after. Also, is it better to post those information under the pasta article or the gluten-free diet page?

Class project
In early August, quite of bit of content that appears to be highly detailed trivia about regulations and about gluten free pasta were added by Wiki Ed/University of British Columbia/FNH200 Exploring our Foods (Summer 2018) ‎. Most of the content added by this class has already been removed from many different articles. How should it be handled here? Gnome de plume (talk) 12:42, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Ancient Romans did not have Durum Wheat
According to this article pasta is made from durum wheat. The Ancient Romans and Greek did not have Durum Wheat.... therefore any similar product they may have made belongs in the history section of the Noodle article as it has nothing to do with pasta.

Durum wheat was introduced into Europe (via Sicily and Spain) by the Arabs during the Islamic conquests of the 9th century. Before that time, Durum wheat was only used in the Middle East where it originated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.237.41.225 (talk) 08:25, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Please add semolina
Please add the term semolina to the lede. 71.198.89.109 (talk) 18:46, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. NiciVampireHeart 21:38, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Remove noodle
Please remove from the bottom as the discussion above determined pasta not to be a type of noodle. And add. 71.198.89.109 (talk) 19:39, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Yellow check.svg Partly done: I've added Template:Pasta as requested, however I did not remove Template:Noodle as pasta is linked on that template. Nici<b style="color:purple">Vampire</b><b style="color:black">Heart</b> 21:38, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Full discussion reveals pasta as type of noodle. 71.198.89.109 (talk) 23:34, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Change 1st sentence
Please change the 1st sentence to read "durum wheat flour (semolina)" and link the 1st use of "semolina" under History. 71.198.89.109 (talk) 23:30, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done <b style="color:black">Nici</b><b style="color:purple">Vampire</b><b style="color:black">Heart</b> 16:25, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

"Pasta is a type of noodle"
Definitions of noodle

Oxford: A very thin, long strip of pasta or a similar flour paste, eaten with a sauce or in a soup.

Merriam-Webster: a food paste made usually with egg and shaped typically in ribbon form

Cambridge: a long, thin strip of pasta made from flour, water, and sometimes eggs, and cooked esp. in boiling water or soup

If you take any of these definitions to be true, the first sentence of this article is saying that "Pasta is a long, thin strip of pasta".

The Wikipedia Noodle page states that noodles can be "cut into one or a variety of shapes which usually include long, thin strips, or waves, helices, tubes, strings, or shells, or folded over, or cut into other shapes."

I struggled to find any examples of helix, tube or shell-shaped food bits being referred to as noodles, but I very easily found Fusilli, Rotini, Penne, Macaroni and Conchiglie which are all helix, tube or shell-shaped types of pasta.

"Pasta is a type of noodle" is an inaccurate and unnecessary statement that doesn't belong in the article.

Dlavaenevogl (talk) 12:40, 31 March 2019 (UTC)


 * What Dlavaenevogl says makes sense. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 13:08, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Summarizing the argument, I believe is saying that noodles (spaghetti, macaroni) are definable as pasta, but pasta is a wider category than just noodles, such as including dumplings (gnocchi, tortellini), lasagna, corzetti, and other non-noodle dishes shown here. In one of the prior edits, this Guardian source was used to differentiate between pasta and noodles, but it is really not a good source for this definition. This source offers a difference in ingredients, processing, and - in countries like Italy, regulations - between typical noodles and various pastas. --Zefr (talk) 14:08, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Hmmmmmm, that makes sense too. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 18:22, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Except it doesn't. They're both unleavened dough that is formed into a shape, and then dried or cooked. They meet the definition of noodle. In North America, the term noodle (arguably) eroneously refers only to narrow noodles, but there's not really any such restriction functionally; lasagne (for example) is the same product, just shaped differently. We're not a dictionary. Just because North Americans don't refer to lasagne as noodles doesn't mean they aren't. GliderMaven (talk) 22:49, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The issue here is with Wikipedia's definition of a noodle, which differed from accepted usage. Wikipedia's definition of a noodle has changed from it's previous incorrect definition which had an overly broad scope.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlavaenevogl (talk • contribs) 22:15, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
 * No, I just checked and the definition at noodle still covers pasta. GliderMaven (talk) 03:27, 8 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Note that dictionary definitions are irrelevant here. This is a confusion of the definition of noodle as well as pasta. Wikipedia defines a noodle as 'Noodles are unleavened dough which is stretched, extruded, or rolled flat and cut into one of a variety of shapes which usually include long, thin strips, or waves, helices, tubes, strings, or shells, or folded over, or cut into other shapes.' Note that that definition covers pasta, as described in this article. We're defining pasta in terms of wikipedia's own article's scope, not that of any dictionaries. BY OUR WIKIPEDIAN DEFINITION, pasta is a type of noodle.


 * In North America 'noodle' is defined in specific ways, that differ from England or (for that matter) the definition in noodle, usually based on size. We're not defining either term, we're scoping out an article. In this article we're considering unleavened dough, specifically made of durum wheat which has been formed into various shapes, as well as other similar products that are intended to be used as drop-in replacements, that may not actually contain durum wheat. GliderMaven (talk) 22:20, 10 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you for that clarification and explanation. 71.198.89.109 (talk) 23:35, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Typo in 1st sentence: "is type" to "is a type". 71.198.89.109 (talk) 19:32, 11 June 2019 (UTC)


 * ✅ GliderMaven (talk) 21:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Pasta is a type of noodle?
User:GliderMaven I get what you're looking to do here, in terms of defining rather than describing the subject, but I'm not satisfied that we can say that pasta is a type of noodle - to my eyes, that's absolutely nonsensical. A noodle is a thing that you eat; pasta is both the material that it's made from, and the word is used as a mass noun refer to any kind of food made from that stuff - including noodles, if they are made from pasta (which they aren't always). Why not phrase it as something along the lines of 'Pasta is a type of food typically made from unleavened...' - that avoids the jarring, 'that has to be a mistake' response that a great many readers will have upon reading that opening sentence? Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether) 19:49, 7 July 2019 (UTC)


 * The result of the discussion above was that there was a rough consensus that pasta is a type of noodle. If you want to discuss ways to improve the wording, that's fine, but I feel you're being disingenuous, since the term pasta primarily refers to noodles made from durum wheat. We can certainly add an explanation about the use of the term 'pasta' to include dishes that include pasta if you like though, but in the meantime I'm reverting your edit. GliderMaven (talk) 03:24, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
 * GliderMaven Please strike the suggestion that I'm being disingenuous - I'm not. And I'd also be grateful if you'd note that you did not need to revert my edit - I did change your text, but then I self-reverted, feeling it was better to discuss here before changing the text. It was User:Vaselineeeeeeee who reinstated my original change, so it appears that they agree with me that your text is, at the very least, not the best possible wording.
 * Looking at the conversation above (I haven't looked through the archive, so please point me to anything I've missed), I don't see a consensus. I see that several people disagreed with your position, offering various sources and arguments, but none of them stated that they had come round to your view, they just stopped arguing. Only the IP editor explicitly said that they agreed.
 * Your argument seems to hinge on how Wikipedia defines noodles and pasta, but I don't really see how that gets us anywhere - Wikipedia is not a reliable source, so either article could be wrong; drawing conclusions and making assertions that aren't directly supported by sources is discussed at WP:SYNTH. The sources presented in the discussion above do not agree with your definition of pasta as a type of noodle, and I've yet to see you present a source that does support that definition. Please could you present the sources you are using for this definition?
 * I continue to feel that replacing the word 'noodle' with 'food' in the first sentence would be an improvement. Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:script;color:blue;"> (blether)  06:20, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Believe it or not, I made that change without seeing this. -Roxy, the dog . wooF 09:58, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Canadian regulations on pasta paste
This edit was reverted because it presents no encyclopedic information, has definitions unique to Canada, and does not represent information of general interest to a typical encyclopedia user, as displayed in the two sources. The editor making the entry is apparently one of many university summer students having an assignment to add Canadian food regulations to numerous Wikipedia articles, shown here. I have been reverting these entries as unnecessary content unique to Canada and unencyclopedic. --Zefr (talk) 22:37, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * There is a regulations section with Italy and the United States listed so far. This list could certainly be expanded for several prominent countries where sources exist. Just because no one has done it yet, does not mean it should not be added or is unencyclopedic. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 02:51, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Canada is ranked about 19th for production (2015). It's unwarranted to discuss regulations for minor manufacturers, WP:UNDUE. --Zefr (talk) 03:36, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. <b style="color:black">Vaseline</b><b style="color:lightgrey">eeeeeee</b>★★★ 15:24, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 July 2019 dausel.co/rBrVuV
49.150.137.117 (talk) 05:00, 23 July 2019 (UTC) ://dausel.co/rBrVuV dausel.co/rBrVuV dausel.co/rBrVuV dausel.co/rBrVuV dausel.co/rBrVuV dausel.co/rBrVuV
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Melmann (talk) 06:10, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I disabled the links above. They are malicious. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 17:38, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Origin "Italy?"
I wonder if that infobox should be changed. The Marco Polo myth of origin is dealt with in the article, but the etymology of the word is Greek, the Greeks made something called lagane which gives them at least as much credit as the Italians to the conceptual precursor, and there is stithw question of whether Arabs brought pasta into Italy from elsewhere. In all, I think it's quite reductive to say "Italy" is the place of origin of pasta frey (talk) 17:30, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Pasta as we know it is originated in Italy. Like for soccer ir rugby it isn't referenced calcio fiorentino or harpastrum — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.0.218.9 (talk) 19:23, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2021
Pasta origins are Greece not Italy. Almost 1000 years before  Marco Polo. China's noodles were not noodles .they were tiny pieces of little bread like bits 107.190.109.82 (talk) 21:30, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Sirdog9002 (talk) 21:41, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

"Alimentary Paste" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Alimentary Paste and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 May 8 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 02:01, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Hot Take
Pasta is just noodles for pretentious food snobs. It's boiled dough. AKA noodles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:9E8:37C9:BA00:9CD1:27CA:CDFA:2A7F (talk) 17:07, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Origin
Pasta is from China 75.141.170.229 (talk) 14:47, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Noodles are from Italy. -Roxy the dog 15:18, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Origin again. Italy or China?
It would be nice to see some history. The current article doesn’t mention China (except re: Marco Polo). There are a few comments in Talk (esp. Archives1).

I couldn’t figure it out using Google. (… I’m hoping someone can).

First problem is defining pasta (from dough or pastry or noodles).

(Second problem: origin). This  says there’s not enough info to say the origin.

This  says the Greeks mentioned the existence of laganon, a flat pasta sheet, before 800BC. Also cited in Archives1. (But it’s probably not pasta).

This  might have the answer… but I don’t know how to read it.

(Third problem:) I couldn’t find any info on the development of pasta in China. It seems to me it’s all noodles, and isn’t pasta, until after 1300 AD.

MBG02 (talk) 15:56, 26 December 2022 (UTC)


 * It's easy. Noodles are Asian (and American - oddly enough), and pasta is Italian. You are welcome. - Roxy the dog 16:24, 26 December 2022 (UTC)


 * That contradicts your last post (Noodles are from Italy. -Roxy the dog 15:18, 14 November 2022).


 * But I’m (now) inclined to agree. The Google finds for pasta in China are exceptionally sparse: and seem to be (only) millet about 2000 BC, rice flour about 1000 BC, and (non durum) wheat about 1000 AD. MBG02 (talk) 09:38, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Context is everything. - Roxy the dog 09:43, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Look.

Boiled thread-like pastry is actually common in different cultures:


 * If it's Italian: Pasta or, more precisely, Spaghetti;
 * If it's Caucausus Caucausian: Laghman;
 * If it's Japanese: Udon;
 * If it's Chinese: can refer to "lamian", a precursor to laghman; but using word "noodles" would be more helpful. 109.252.66.34 (talk) 19:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Sources (not sauces) are what matter here. Bring us sources to discuss. My own impression is that 'pasta' is the wheat-dough-type stuff from which the various shapes are made - be it noodles, lasagne sheets, macaroni tubes or whatever. Noodles are the things that are made from that dough - or from rice dough, or whatever other dough. But to have a meaningful discussion, we need sources. Girth Summit <sub style="font-family:Segoe print;color:blue;"> (blether)  20:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to argue with "Nonna Girth." - Roxy the dog 23:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)