Talk:Pastoral Pipes

Development from the pastoral pipes may have influenced the Uilleann pipes. Although both instruments look similar, the pastoral pipes, were a forgotten pipe that never caught on in Scotland and the north of England in the in the 1700/1800s and died out roughly in the early 1900s.

Or both instruments could have developed roughly around the same time. For more information check out this site.

http://www.bcpipes.com/pipes.html#anchor377700

Also check out http://www.greylarsen.com/store/samples/essguide_chap1-2.pdf

Ive also included this response from a guy from the Uilleann pipe page.

I've put links to both websites in this section, as one was removed (probably accidentally). I also added the indent. My apologies for referring to that edit as linkspam earlier - it seems to be a useful article. Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Uilleann_pipes"

Graham talk 14:02, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * You state. They are widely recognised as the forerunner and ancestor of the Uilleann Pipes. The problem about a statement like this:(1) It's very broad and sweeping, and (2)Is it true?  I have no problen with it, if it is fact. Have you searched Irish references on this, because after all the Uilleann Pipes has a long tradition in Ireland. 83.70.215.114 21:04, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

As I am new to this pipe myself and from what websites I have looked at, it seems that although the instrument has been called the Scottish Pastoral pipes, union hybrid pipes and the pastoral pipes. Some sites say that the pipe has no specific area of origin within Britain and Ireland and sprang up everywhere roughly at the same time, while others say that they evolved from a kind of hybrid pipe caught between the Scottish/Northumbrian border pipes and the present day Uilleann pipes. Till I can get this problem solved, I will re-name the article the Pastoral Pipes and update the article accordingly. The pipe so far has a two octave highland type chanter with Scottish fingering and may have been a modified version of the lowland pipes with this to play the changing tastes of music at the time. It could be a missing link in British bagpipe design at the time. As I read up on the subject I will let you know. Im also new to the wikipedia edit thing and computers.

Celtic Harper 08:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The pastoral pipe chanter is massively different from any other kind of chanter that was played in Britain around the time of its invention. To go from a Border pipe chanter capable of overblowing a couple of notes at most to a two octave chromatic chanter with a keynote a fifth lower is a heck of a leap for the most aspiring of pipemakers.   In my opinion, the Pastoral pipe was invented outright, not derived from another kind of bagpipe.  However, some original research is needed here, which isn't Wikipedia's job. Calum 05:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I see what you mean; the pastoral pipe chanter is different to any other pipe played in Britain at that time. Although it used a Scottish fingering style I’m surprised the highland pipers didn’t keep it going as it had a second octave? Although not being a highland pipe player myself, I couldn’t comment on the bag pressure needed to reach it.

I found out some information though, (McCandless 2005), states the first pictorial reference to a pastoral pipe occurs in London at a play called “The Beggers Opera” in 1727. This opera was popular in its time due to the influx of Italian music and was called a pastoral play due to its theme of Shepard’s.

It featuring an en masse dance led by a bagpipe. At the time William Hogarth (1697-1764) was a fan, and one of his engravings features a bellow blown bagpipe from the opera that closely resembles the pastoral pipe in Geoghegan’s tune book. The Beggars Opera, mirrored musical trends at the time and (Bates 1967) cited in (McCandless 2005), says “rancorous oboes” manufactured in London were also called pastoral. This may indicate why the bagpipes called the Pastoral pipes, also the operas was set in the colourful backwater of “Newgate prison” and the term “new pipes” could derive from this. Celtic Harper 01:00, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is factually disputed here?
Can anyone explain exactly what fact are in dispute here? If not, I'll remove the tag as as far as I can see there isn't anything vastly mistaken. Calum 20:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The tag isn't there because the facts are in dispute; the tag is there because there are no reliable sources quoted for the information, as there should be in accordance with Wikipedia's policy on verifiability. Cheers --Pak21 20:16, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I see. Brian McCandless and Grey Larson are both well respected authorities on Irish music in general and I would consider them to be reliable within the WP:RS guidelines.  As good quality material on this subject is scarce (this article is actually one of the best summaries of what is known on the subject available), I think the tag can be legitimately removed. Calum 16:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the page was originally Scottish Pastoral Pipes. Actually the editing is not quite accurate, a little bit biased, and doesn't give the fuller picture.  I just cannot get involved in editing it presently as I have other things on hand. Otherwise it is very nicely presented in the main. 86.42.128.231 18:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I initially started this page as I was in Glasgow and went to the pipe museum there and heard from the assistant that a pastoral pipe was played in Scotland and was very similar to the Uilleann pipes. As an Uilleann piper I was interested in this almost forgotten pipe. From what I could gather at the start of my research, the pipes were called the Scottish Pastoral pipes. Later I discovered they were called among other things the Union pipes, and Hybrid union pipes. I started the article with the Scottish Pastoral pipe title as I was under the impression it was a Scottish instrument. On later investigation I discovered that the instrument was almost a missing ling between the cold wind small pipes of the Scottish/English border and the later Uilleann pipes. They seemed to spring up practically everywhere from Edinburgh, London, Dublin and Newcastle. I changed the article, because I didn’t want to give the wrong impression it was purely a Scottish innovation when at the time it was used throughout Britain and Ireland. I am still new to wikipedia and apologise for my lack of skill with a computer as I couldn’t change the title heading to Pastoral pipe. Celtic Harper 11:55, 27th July 2006 (UTC)

Merge
I think it's a bit absurd to have two different articles entitled Pastoral Pipes and Pastoral pipes (note capitalization!). I'm proposing merging them, but I'm not doing it right away in case anyone would like to suggest a different name for one article or the other and keep them separate. --Craig Stuntz 13:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I think a merger of the two related articles would be a good idea. Celtic Harper 11:55, 27th July 2006 (UTC)


 * As it has been over a month with no more comments or edits to either page, I will merge them to fulfill User:Craig Stuntz's request. Jlittlet 23:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)