Talk:Pastoral pipes

Merge
I think it's a bit absurd to have two different articles entitled Pastoral Pipes and Pastoral pipes (note capitalization!). I'm proposing merging them, but I'm not doing it right away in case anyone would like to suggest a different name for one article or the other and keep them separate. --Craig Stuntz 13:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Quite agree - I reckon here is the better place as there is no particuar reason for the capitilisation. Calum 17:52, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Unsigned Edit
Restoration of former article by unsigned edit and restoration of cited sources removed by unsigned editor. The sources for the removal of the footjoint are cited, credible and come from a source in Cambridge university so they stay. Celtic Harper (talk) 23:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Union pipe material belongs with Uilleann Pipes article
There is no real evidence that the Pastoral form of the instrument, i.e. the "New Bagpipe", was referred to as the Union Pipes. There is however good evidence that the name "Union Bagpipes" was applied to the foot-joint-less instrument prior to 1800. The name "uilleann" has not been documented prior to Grattan Flood's (now-discredited) assertion (c1903) that uilleann was the previous name of the instrument.

The consensus among scholars of the latter instrument is that "Union Pipes" and "Irish Pipes" were the names in circulation prior to Flood.

It is indeed thought, nowadays (though dissenting views exist) that the Pastoral instrument evolved into the "Union" instrument, which underwent further change during the late 19th and early 20th centuries; however the name change to "uilleann" seems to be only that - a name change - thus "Union" and "Uilleann" pipes are the same. There is a convention to refer to pre-20th-century union/uilleann instruments by the former name ("union" pipes) and "modern" instruments by the latter, but this is merely a convention.

Thus photos of and references to "Union Pipes" should be moved to the Uilleann Pipes Wikipedia article, and reference to their presumed origin in the Pastoral Pipes should be retained in this article. The current arrangement wrongly implies that pastoral and union pipes are the same instrument (e.g. "other names" in the RHS box), and uilleann pipes are something different.. A similar, but lesser, problem exists on the uilleann pipes page where the pastoral pipes are referred to as an "early form of the uilleann pipes".

I should point out that these origins are, while oft-repeated, still hypothetical and speculative - I have never encountered a contemporary account of removal of the foot-joint. Unfortunately much of the published material on these instruments is based on thin scholarship and a number of the views in this article are controversial - a reader of the article in its current form would not get any indication of this.

best regards,

Bill Haneman 86.42.95.228 (talk) 00:49, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Firstly the above comment is misleading the evolution of the union pipe is not "oft-repeated, still hypothetical and speculative" that is your opinion probably due to Irish nationalism Bill. Dissenting views exist (in a minority I might add) because some people have a problem with the shared history between Britain and Ireland with the development of the Uilleann/Union pipes. So much nationalists like Flood in 1904 gave this instrument an Irish gaelic make-over. The real development of this instrument is far more interesting than the speculative crap thats spouted out like "England banned marching instruments in Ireland therefore the instrument evolved from that" or the laughable Flood hypothesis of "woolian pipes" even Irish historians laugh at them now. The two octave union/Uilleann pipe of the British Isles has had enough speculation considering historical instruments prove the evolution from the pastoral pipes and the range was two octaves the same as the union pipes. Less nationalism please. Yaniukku (talk) 14:24, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

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