Talk:Pat Collins (baseball)/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: TonyTheTiger (talk · contribs) 04:00, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I will do this review.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:00, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * WP:LEAD
 * I would include the most important highlight of his career in the LEAD. (2 World Series). --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:58, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Added. —Bloom6132 (talk) 14:33, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Personal life
 * This section conflates typical personal life content with typical early life content.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The 2nd paragraph belongs at the end in a personal life section. Everything after his marriage in the first paragraph should also be moved.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Once you do this, you will see that the early life is quite deficient.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * What were his parents' names?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Did he have siblings?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Do we have a name for the school he attended?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * At what age did these studies stop?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems implied that this was a pro or semipro sandlot league? Do we know of a salary?
 * Did he play for a named team?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * What year was he married?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Did he have kids?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * If he got married after his MLB debut, this also belongs in the personal life section.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Without most of this early life content, this article likely will not pass GA.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the main focus should be on his baseball career and less so on his early life. Also, I don't think I should be penalized for the lack of sources regarding the trivial details of his early childhood. —Bloom6132 (talk) 14:33, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Have you tried Missouri baseball historians or Saline County, Missouri librarians?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:12, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I've already exhausted all available Google News Archive and Google Books sources for Collins. Not a lot is known or written about his early life.  And no, I haven't tried Missouri sources because I don't reside anywhere near North America at the present moment. —Bloom6132 (talk) 14:33, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * If you are unable to contact local experts yourself, you might want to try WP:MO. WP:WIAGA specifically states that it must cover "the main aspects of the topic" (3a). I have had many WP:GACs failed for lack of this type of content. In a biography, identifying who he is (son of X and Y) is a pretty main aspect. In the end the vast majority of the content will involve baseball because that is where most of the interesting facts about his life will be found. However, we must provide his basic identity to the reader.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:12, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Also don't forget regardless of where you live you can probably make online queries.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:33, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I've contacted WT:MO for help. If I don't get a response, then I'll voluntarily withdraw this article from GAN.  I've already sifted thoroughly through the entire News Archives and Books at Google.  I'm not prepared to go out on a limb to purchase archived articles online or buy a book just to turn this into a GA.  For an FA, sure, I can see the merits in doing that, but not for a GA.  I hope you understand.  Cheers! —Bloom6132 (talk) 22:51, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Good luck, I would also try online help desks at local libraries. I have gotten details in this manner in the past. Odds are if a local kid wins the World Series there will at least be some local stories about his family and background. Even if we are talking about over 80 years ago, it is still a worthwhile effort.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:55, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Minor leagues
 * Do we know what level the Western League was? AAA, AA, A or rookie? --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:41, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Added. Class A per this. —Bloom6132 (talk) 20:01, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * St. Louis Browns (1919–1924)
 * "fifth highest caught stealing percentage in the American League (AL) at 44.4%" is misleading because he did not qualify statistically. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:26, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * According to Baseball Reference, he did. Should I add the fact that it was "according to BR". —Bloom6132 (talk) 14:33, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You are correct. I forgot that fielding does not have the same eligibility requirements as batting.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:21, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Rather than link to History of the Philadelphia Athletics, I would link to the 1923 Philadelphia Athletics season. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:26, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. —Bloom6132 (talk) 22:51, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * New York Yankees (1926–1928)
 * "fifth highest at bats per home run" should be fifth best because low is better. Also, sources I see actually say 10th best. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:34, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed. And you're right; it's tenth. —Bloom6132 (talk) 22:51, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * "series against the Browns" - Browns should link to the 1926 team season article. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:34, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. —Bloom6132 (talk) 22:51, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * "to the St. Louis Cardinals" should link to the 1926 team season article. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:34, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. —Bloom6132 (talk) 22:51, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * "featuring in just" s/b "appearing in just" --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:34, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed. —Bloom6132 (talk) 22:51, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Pittsburgh Pirates should link to the 1927 team season article. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:34, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Added. —Bloom6132 (talk) 22:51, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * "usually penciled near" is very slangy. I'd remove the word penciled. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:34, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Removed. Replaced with "placed". —Bloom6132 (talk) 22:51, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Cardinals should link to the 1928 team season article. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:34, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. —Bloom6132 (talk) 22:51, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Boston Braves and back to the minors (1929–1932)
 * Clarify that the International League was Triple-A (baseball) --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:41, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. —Bloom6132 (talk) 20:01, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Clarify the year (change the season to the 1930 season) and level for the Pacific Coast League stint. --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:41, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. —Bloom6132 (talk) 20:01, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Post-playing career
 * What league were the Rock Island Islanders in? --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:44, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Western League – the same one as the St. Joseph team he was forced to forfeit. Should it be mentioned again? —Bloom6132 (talk) 20:01, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Mention it again unless there is a reason for the average reader to know this.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:38, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Added. —Bloom6132 (talk) 21:04, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * What years did he own them?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:44, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, it's not mentioned in the source. —Bloom6132 (talk) 20:01, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Images
 * Only image is PD.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:46, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I am putting this On Hold. I suspect beefing up the early life will take some work, but not too much total content is needed. Please try to respond to these issues within seven days.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:49, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the late notice, but could you please give me an extra week to address your feedback. This week is my most hectic, as I have 3 law essays (2000+ words each) due this Friday.  I'm not blaming anyone (and I'm certainly not blaming you – thank you for even picking up the review to begin with after months in the backlog), but this is actually the worst week possible for any reviewer to pick up one of my GAs.  My apologies. —Bloom6132 (talk) 20:14, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Take your time and try to get to it by the end of the month. However, you might want to make queries at places like WP:MO or local libraries online now so that they can respond to you in time.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:32, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm back. I found this source, but I'd like to make sure it is considered reliable before adding it to the article.  It lists his parents' names, the date of his wedding and (if you click on one of his parents) his siblings.  What do you think? —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:02, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * That is almost certainly not a WP:RS. You should try to find a better source. That is probably something copied from a census, but we can't be sure. I continue to encourage you to talk to the proper local libraries. I would put this information on the talk page of the article and request assistance from others in verifying it. Also drop a note at WP:MLB telling them about it.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:26, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Contacted MLB talkpage for verification and other possible sources. Tried to check the Kansas City, Kansas Public Library, but their online material requires registration, which is the same for most other libraries.  That's pretty much as far as I'm going.  For sources, I've always stuck to online sources, used only four books and I've never had to personally contact a library for WP.  And this has suffice every time.  For my most recent GA (Jack Warhop), I didn't have to go into any detail about "his parents' names", who his siblings were, the "name for the school he attended", at "what age did these studies stop", his sandlot baseball salary, the name of that team, etc.  And this was a thorough review done by one of the most prolific members of the WP:MLB project whose also a Bureaucrat.  It's the baseball career aspect which counts, and if that's good enough to pass and this one (which is comparable IMO) does not, I really don't know what to make of it.  If I do end up finding sources for every detail you're asking for here, might as well give this article a bronze star instead of a green roundel when we're finished here. —Bloom6132 (talk) 16:41, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * May I ask if you have ever scoured up an obit on this guy. Obits often have parents names.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:49, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have, long before Google News Archives was discontinued. The only one I got free was from the St. Joseph News-Press, which I've already used in the article and doesn't mention his parents.  The other one was printed by The New York Times, probably the most comprehensive given its reputation and Collins' ties with the city, but is unfortunately placed behind a paywall, so I couldn't access it. —Bloom6132 (talk) 03:43, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * What region of the world do you work from? Local libraries in most U.S. cities have the NYT going way back.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:33, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I live in Asia-Pacific region and attend university in the UK. Not really the best location combo when it comes to getting sources on North American-centric topics (I'm originally from Canada, hence my interest in this area). —Bloom6132 (talk) 04:55, 24 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I never pay for WP content and don't do much in the way of calling people for information. I have however, had online communication with research librarians who have helped me find content on some rare occaissions. I have some arguments regarding basing a GA decision of a MLB player solely on his MLB career.
 * 1) In my experience, not finding other content makes the article imbalanced. E.g., Talk:Héctor_López, was an experience that I had in which I was pushed to round out the article. It was for the good of the encyclopedia. Although I never found his parents' names, I did have to round out the article a bit to get a GA. Oddly, more than half of my own MLB GAs (Lopez, Bennie Oosterbaan, Elmer Gedeon, Jerry Reinsdorf, Ted Petoskey, Chris Young (pitcher) and Philip Humber) also lack parents' names (vs. Whitey Wistert, Will Venable, Walter O'Malley, and Barry Bonds) even though I rounded most of them out quite a bit. Hmm. Well a lot of people are blinded by the main course. Lopez might involve researching Spanish language sources, but I imagine Young, Reinsdorf and Humber have findable parent names. I feel a bit ashamed not to have included them yet.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:49, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) In a case like this, we are dealing with an American baseball player. I know there are guys at WP:MLB who have the ability to call a research librarian in the county he grew up in and help us track down information on this guy. We already have census type information, but from a non-WP:RS, it should not be hard for a U.S.-based WP:MLB member to help you confirm that type of content.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:49, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) My biggest argument against letting people skate based solely on MLB content, is my own research experience, mostly with basketball. If you look at bios at Category:FA-Class NBA articles, you will find 5 articles that skate by on NBA career content and the one I wrote for Juwan Howard. I think most guys who make the NBA have a lot of content from prior to their NBA careers that could make their articles more well-rounded. I do concede that high school and college basketball are much more widely written than high school and college baseball, so I should tread carefully on this subject. I have visions of a WP:FA for the High school basketball career of Jabari Parker and I don't think too many baseball players have that kind of content out there. I do think many have significantly more content than is being requested by reviewers.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:49, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) is a great reviewer. You are stuck with me. Ask around, I am a pretty tedious reviewer and I am going to push you for stuff I think you can find. Jack Warhop is also born in the U.S. I would not be surprised if his parent's names could be found. I don't think it should be delisted. I just think WP should aspire to produce articles that are as broad as possible. I don't think anyone should have the feeling, I have covered his MLB career, I am done. There is a lot to learn from college baseball and minor leagues, as well as early life. Look at Humber, I (and a co-author) have a lot of early life and amateur content in there that you might not expect to find in an MLB player's article.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:49, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I looked for over an hour for anything extra I could add to the article and found nothing. I found his New York Times obit, but it was surprisingly scant, and didn't offer anything aside from his wife's name and cause of death, both of which we have in the article. Granted, Secret is looking for info to add now, and his repository of Yankees info is far greater than mine. If he can't find anything, I would be fairly certain the requested info just doesn't exist. I did find that his mother's name was Sarah, confirmed in the 1910 census and his WWI draft card (widowed so no father noted anywhere), and that he presumably had 3 siblings per the same census, but that's pushing original research, which I try not to do if I can help it. Wizardman  19:51, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Let me know when you have heard from Secret and I will make my final evaluation.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:58, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * What is the latest?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:32, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I just pinged Secret. Waiting for a response. —Bloom6132 (talk) 16:48, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * What is the latest?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:39, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
 * He still hasn't responded to my discussion thread. Want me to ask him again? —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:24, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I called the Sweet Springs, MO, Columbia, MO and St. Louis, MO libraries today. I just got an email from the SLPL. Here is partial text from the email: "He first appears in the US Census in 1900 living in Salt Pond, Missouri with his widowed mother Sarah and sisters Ola (9) and Mildred (6). In 1910, when he is 13, the family is in Kansas City, Kansas.  His mother is still there in the 1920 census, so I would speculate that he attended high school there." They instructed me to try the Kansas City Public Libraries since his family live in KC from at least 1910 to 1920. Does anyone know how to get access to Census info in a format that counts as a WP:RS.  They also sent me various sources showing he was purchased from Joplin along with Rolla Maple.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:17, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
 * It's clear that Secret's not going to get to this, so I just added the information from the 1910 census in with the source so this review can be concluded. Wizardman  19:33, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I will PASS this now.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:55, 18 January 2014 (UTC)