Talk:Pat O'Keeffe/Archive 1

Request edit on 5 January 2018
change O'Keefe to o'keeffe in all instances. In this link you'll see a signed picture by Pat O'Keeffe, he signs his own name with 2 f's. http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-148529894/view kind regards Okeeffemarc (talk) 14:38, 5 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Even though the photo appears to show two f's in the name, the National Library of Australia spells his name with only one. I'm reluctant to change the article based on one picture when the sources say otherwise. —C.Fred (talk) 16:45, 5 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Good afternoon, With respect, this is signed by the person him self, surely you're not saying he incorrectly spelt his own name? Its an annoying infliction that no one can spell our name right.
 * here's a scarf that was presented from the British Boxing Authority. Again with the correct spelling.


 * regards, Okeeffemarc (talk) 18:10, 5 January 2018 (UTC)


 * There is a spelling discrepancy. The question becomes, how best to handle it? Was the spelling changed at some point? Was the double-f the earlier spelling? Or, why do the library and other sources use the one-f spelling? —C.Fred (talk) 18:19, 5 January 2018 (UTC)


 * The name was 2 F’s Long before his life and remains so today. The discrepancy is down to incorrect spelling. I’d argue that his name In his own writing is pretty potent evidence, along with official memorabilia presented to him such as the scarf. What threshold of evidence do you need? I know I’m correct and believe I have sufficient proof, but understand you are just protecting the integrity of your site. I believe a member of my family has a certified family tree, would a photo of this help?
 * Also, I am going to find the family of the author of his biography, and gain copyright permission to the pictures. I am talking to BoxRec.com concerning the inaccuracies in his fighting record. Once resolved, would citing their record be enough to change it on here?
 * Regards Okeeffemarc (talk) 21:45, 5 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I've asked at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Boxing about this. Perhaps someone from that WikiProject can help find something which shows the "correct" spelling of the name. As for the photos in the book, they might be old enough to be considered in the public domain; otherwise, permission of the original copyright holder will be needed to release them under a free license. Since books often use photos taken by someone other than the author(s), it should not be automatically assumed that the person(s) who took the photos and the author of the book are one and the same. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:46, 5 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Marchjuly Thank you, doing my research, the wrong spelling is frustratingly wide spread on google [sigh] if i need to get un refute-able proof i will, it'll just take a few days. I have found more excellent pictures from the Imperial War Museum who say their pictures are free to use as long as it's not for commercial gain, i have emailed them about his name too. plus i have found a video from British Pathe on Youtube of him training: youtu.be/YRRyeZL64h4 could i add this video? The youngest picture in that book is 1953, the rest are pre-1918. if i ditch all of the anecdotal text, can my edit stand? Notwithstanding the question of his name of course.


 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by Okeeffemarc (talk • contribs) 23:10, 5 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Marchjuly ( hello again, just found a tonne of old newspaper articles from the British National Archive with his name spelt correctly :) this has to be enough proof for a name change now right?? also plenty of reliable sources to add content to his profile?


 * regards, Okeeffemarc (talk) 23:32, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Changing the spelling of a word in the article body is quite simple to do; changing the title of an article, however, is more complicated and requires a page move. Article titles are determined according to WP:COMMONNAME and are intended to reflect what independent reliable sources are saying. So, what is going to need to be established is that the majority of independent reliable sources use "Keeffe". Establishing a consensus for a page move may take some time, so please be patient and give others a chance to comment. Once the name issue has been resolved, then the other changes you're proposing can be discused.
 * Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons only accept freely licensed content (text or images) which allows re-use for commercial purposes; so, those IWM photos cannot be uploaded under a free license without the original copyright holder(s) agreeing to allow commercial use. Moreover, not every image you may find on a museum's, etc. website automatically means that the museum, etc. is the original copyright holder. Some copyrighted content can be uploaded locally to Wikiepdia as non-free content, but Wikipedia's non-free content use policy is quite restrictive and can be hard to satisfy in some cases. So, I suggest that you wait until the name issue has been resolved before uploading anymore image files. If you upload images that are improperly licensed or otherwise deemed to be a violation of relevant policies and guidelines, then you're just creating a mess that others are going to have to cleanup and you might be labled as a chronic copyright violator if you do it too many times.
 * I posted something on your user talk about how to properly ping other editors and sign your talk page posts. Please take the time to read it. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:29, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

I have updated this profile with the correct fight records from Boxrec.com and have added to the short summary of his career. On reading this talk page i can tell you his name on Boxrec.com is with 2 F's, and along with the evidence provided on this page such as his own signature and literally hundreds of regional and national newspaper articles from that time spelling it with 2 F's also, i'd say thats a compelling case for changing the page name...or maybe say he was known as both?? Benparsons2 (talk) 16:32, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

I have access to the British Newspaper Archive. Searches of sources from 1900-1950 return results for this subject with both spellings, but there are more that use O'Keefe. That doesn't necessarily mean they are correct, of course. He served in the army during WW1, so there may be some military sources that could be used. --Michig (talk) 20:22, 7 January 2018 (UTC) I've found and added his date and place of death - this may also help to find an official death record with the correct name recorded. --Michig (talk) 20:32, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Further update: I've searched FreeBMD for a death record from Middlesex, his place of death. The site has no Patrick O'Keefe death records from 1960, but has a Patrick O'Keeffe death registered in Harrow, Middlesex during the period July-September 1960 (only the index is visible), and he was aged 77, which I have confirmed was the age at death of this Pat O'Keeffe, so I think this strongly suggests that O'Keeffe is the correct spelling. --Michig (talk) 20:40, 7 January 2018 (UTC)


 * hello Michig (talk) This is an excellent find, It really is a curse that my name is spelt wrong so frequently, i guess past generations just gave up correcting it! So i have a found a signed picture with the correct spelling as written by him, and now an official death record confirms the spelling...plus BoxRec.com have it correct now. Do you know how i go about changing it on here? kind regards --Okeeffemarc (talk) 22:17, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Other editors are working on this and it appears to be moving towards a resolution. Just be a little more patient and don't try and make the change yourself. FWIW, both C.Fred and Michig are administrators; they are here to help sort this out. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:36, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

I think we have enough to move the article to Pat O'Keeffe and mention the different spelling used by some sources in the lede. Does anyone object? --Michig (talk) 09:33, 8 January 2018 (UTC)


 * No objection from me of course. I have added lots more about Pat in my sandbox and would like to submit it for review, I believe it's matter of factly and have cited every claim from reliable sources. I don't want to do that unless the name is changed. I won't try and do it due to aforementioned COI. If anyone wants to look at my sandbox and add to/change it, please feel free, you won't hurt my feelings! :) Okeeffemarc (talk) 20:53, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I am not an admin and I don't have tons of experience with the technicalities of page moves. If feels there's enough sourcing for this, then I have no objection. There will always be this discussion which can be cited for reference if anyone disputes this at a later date. It may even be possible to add something about the different spelling to the article content if it really had a significant impact on O'Keeffe's career or like.
 * As for User:Okeeffemarc/sandbox, I don't suggest requesting that be added all at once because it would be such a major revision of the current article; better to ask for it in stages. You might also want to ask for some members of WT:BOXING to take a look at it while it's in you sandbox; they ight be able to help tighten up anything which needs tightening up. Quick observations: (1) Too many external links. Only the one for O'Keeffe's boxing record seems relevant per WP:ELNO; so the others should go. (2) You've embedded external links into the article. It's unfortunate perhaps that many of the fighters from that era don't have stand-alone articles written about them. If you feel there's enough to write an article about them yourself or for someone else to do so then follow WP:REDYES; don't embed external links to pages about fighters like this. (3) Try to figure which pictures best complement the article content and keep those. Some of the photos seem unnecessary or redundant to me. You should also try to re-format the ones you want to keep so that they better fit into the article as a whole. Articles are not picture albums of photos of the subject or photos related to the subject, and ideally they should directly support article content. You also have to remember MOS:ACCESS and that all kinds of people read Wikipedia from all kinds of devices, so avoid WP:SANDWICH, etc. Take a look at some WP:FAs about fighters/athletes for some examples and WP:IUP for general suggestions. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:53, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I've gone ahead and moved it. --Michig (talk) 07:15, 23 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the observations and tips I am looking at starting articles for all these boxers and would like to expand on existing ones already on Wikipedia, it's amazing how much you can find in old newspapers. I will take time to look at the WP links you have given and try and make what i have done water tight. Thanks for moving the page  Okeeffemarc (talk) 18:45, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Generally, you're going to need to show these other boxers meet WP:BIO or WP:NBOXING for a stand-alone article (even a WP:STUB) to have staying power. You should ask at WT:BOXING about this because those editors would probably be able to give you more specific advice. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:14, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Request edit on 26 January 2018
Please replace current version of Pat O'Keeffe with this one. Old draft deleted by --Okeeffemarc (talk) 17:09, 1 March 2018 (UTC) ''This Keeps the same information that already exists in the current article, and then expands from a STUB to include information on his career, military service and retirement. I believe this is a well sourced, neutral article that follows WP:MOS. I am of course happy to be corrected, so i learn for my next edit. Thank you for you in advance for your time and consideration'' Okeeffemarc (talk) 17:48, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
 * No problem replacing the existing article, but I think the full reproduction of newspaper articles needs to go for copyright reasons - better to summarise what they say in the text of the article if relevant. There are also some changes needed per WP:MOSBIO, e.g. refer to him as 'O'Keeffe' rather than 'Pat' after the first instance. --Michig (talk) 18:38, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
 * One quick thing about adding lots of content such as this. When you basically copy-and-paste a fully formatted article onto a talk page, the Wiki software will format it as such. This means all of the images, section heading, templates, etc. will be enabled/active just as if they were on the article page. In some instances, this could be a problem because certain images/templates are only meant for use in articles, not article talk pages. It also can mess with the talk page's formatting since all of the software sees  and formats that particular section as if it was really a new section on the talk page. If you have a hard time understanding what this means, compare this version of the talk page (the one prior to the tweaking I did) with the current version and you'll notice that the sections of the proposed addition were being treated as new subsections of the talk page, which they technically were not. Another tip is that you could've simply add a link to your sandbox as your request instead of copy-and-pasting everything here; that would've preserved proper attribution just in case this might not have been covered by WP:NOATT. For future reference though, whenever you copy-and-paste anything from one Wikipedia page to another, it's a good idea to check WP:CWW to make sure their are no attribution issues.
 * As for the proposed version, it looks much better than the one I saw at User:Okeeffemarc/sandbox a few days ago. Some observations are as follows:
 * The box quotes (quote frame) seem a bit too many and too undue for me per MOS:QUOTE and per Michig, so maybe better to summarize them or only quote the essential words, and then support by a inline citation.
 * The headings "Prime" and "Tough time aboard" probably should be tweaked to clarify/make them more neutral sounding, Maybe divide up the career by time period using actual years (e.g., "Early career:1910–1920") or by status (e.g., "Amateur career" and "Professional career", "Domestic career" and "International career"). Maybe Muhammad Ali can be seen as one example of how to do this, but there should be more then one or two simple sentences per section. Also, it should be "World War I" since it is a proper noun.
 * Articles don't use ordinals for dates per WP:BADDATE; you can use the UK date format (DMY) if you want per MOS:DATETIES, but don't use ordinals like in "January 27th, 2018", or "27th January 2018", etc.
 * As Michig also points out, take a look at WP:SURNAME because use of the first name should be limited to only when it's absolutely essential for the reader's understand; for example, when distinguishing between two people who share the same family name, etc.
 * The unsourced content of the retirement section probably should go except for the stuff about his death. (That should be sourced if possible). I'm sure the other stuff about the Ark Royal and losing trophies, etc. is true and it does add some color, but it will be always be a target for removal by another editor as trivial with proper sourcing.
 * Most of the things I mentioned above would be cleaned up if this content was already in the article. None of it, other than unsourced content and the possible copyright issues, are major issues that might lead to removal of any content. -- Marchjuly (talk) 23:00, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks very much for once again having a look and taking some considerable time and effort to detail your constructive feedback in terms a noob like me can understand;
 * Please see my sandbox for the latest version of my proposed article for Pat O'Keeffe
 * Thank you for once again taking a look and your useful and informative feedback.
 * I have got rid of the quotes and summarised whilst quoting a sentence or two. I have left the the last quote, but shortened it to an extract of exactly what im pertaining to. with "..." before and after to show this is an extract.
 * Every "Pat" has been replaced with O'Keeffe or he/him/his.
 * Headings have been changed. The Ali article was definitely useful for comparative ideas.
 * I have changed all dates to conform with MOS:DATETIES
 * Agree, if i can't cite it, it shouldn't be there. I have found other material to fill the gap, that is sourced.

Think this article's looking pretty good now. Thanks again to both of you for your observations and tips. Okeeffemarc (talk) 03:10, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Oh and I have left the proposed article in my sandbox as per Marchjuly’s advise. Okeeffemarc (talk) 22:53, 27 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Have been reading up on COI edit requests, the requests have to be on the talk page it seems. Have made a fair few changes and additions in accordance with more newspaper trawls and BoxRec updates. would you be happy to publish this ? Okeeffemarc (talk) 20:22, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Old draft deleted by --Okeeffemarc (talk) 17:09, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Reply 4-FEB-2018
Please reopen a new edit request when you're ready to proceed.  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   15:52, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) I'm concerned about the references from BoxRec, which state on their website Data may be incomplete/inaccurate. These citations represent 19% of your entire references, a significant amount. Thus, other more reliable sources for this information needs to be located. These will most likely be found in print sources at your local library, or through the library's ILL system.
 * 2) There are still references to Wikipedia present in the article. These need to be removed. If the information was taken from these Wikipedia articles, either delete the information or paraphrase it in your own words.
 * 3) Your draft version should include the addition of a Primary Sources template, which the article will most definately have if published in the current configuration.
 * 4) WP:INTEGRITY issues are pervasive in the article. Instances such as the second paragraph of the Early Career section, which has a citation bundle placed at the end of the text consisting of 5 citations, needs to be fixed. Citations must follow the information they cite, so ensuring that the citations do not stray far from the information they reference would be a helpful endeavour.
 * 5) The article is heavy with citations just about until you reach its lower half, whereupon citations quickly become few and far between, leaving gaps where unreferenced claims reside. Unreferenced material may be challenged and removed, so the more gaps that can be filled with references, the better. Your access to subscription-based archives should prove useful in this regard.

Request edit on 12 February 2018
Please replace the existing Pat O'Keeffe with this one.

Old draft deleted by--Okeeffemarc (talk) 17:09, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for taking a look at my draft and your constructive and useful feedback. Sorry for taking so long to reply, have been away at work.

1 I take your point that BoxRec has a disclaimer, but it is also the recognised authority on boxing records, used by almost every single boxing article on Wikipedia. I have replaced all but 2 of the BoxRec references in the article, finding better sources for the rest.

2 Now no more links to wikipedia article.

3 I have added the Primary Sources template, but not 100% sure about it. Even though the vast majority of the sources i use are newspapers of the day, I am only using primary sources to reference the facts about his bouts, a lot of these articles, especially the WW1 era, also have opinion interjected, making them secondary sources? Im obviously no expert, so i may be wrong.

4 I have resolved citation bundle issues. I can very confidently say that every citation is directly relevant to what they reference.

5 The reason the article is heavy with citations in the top half is because i am citing every bout i mention, later in the article i am citing paragraphs that summarise the news article cited, hence the larger spaces. Every claim is cited.

Okeeffemarc (talk) 20:33, 12 February 2018 (UTC)


 * The collapse box doesn't seem to be working, i cannot understand why, as when in preview it looks fine. therefore i'm taking the collapse out Okeeffemarc (talk) 20:57, 12 February 2018 (UTC)


 * X mark.svg Not done Really, you need to provide specific changes rather than a replacement in whole cloth. It's not practical to compare to see the changes from this version to the existing. —C.Fred (talk) 21:12, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Ok, but it's changing the profile picture, his height, and fight record, adding slightly more information to the introduction paragraph, then everything is new. how would you want this presented? Okeeffemarc (talk) 21:28, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Bite size Request edit on 12 February 2018
1. please replace this version: 2. with this: '''The new version has more detail, with corresponding sources. (References have been "no wiki'ed" to stop them auto populating at the bottom of the page)''' 3. Then please add the following:proffesional boxing; Early career 1902-1910 4.International career:1907-1910 5. Late career:1911-1918 6. Military service during World War I 7. Retirement  8. Proffesional boxing record/see also/refs/external links '''9. The rest of the article is new and thoroughly sourced, with the help of numerous kind, friendly and knowledgeable editors who have taken the time to provide some very useful feedback that i have acted upon. Kind regards, Okeeffemarc (talk) 22:18, 12 February 2018 (UTC)''' 10. Have updated to ensure this draft is also MOS:BOXING compliant. Okeeffemarc (talk) 22:21, 18 February 2018 (UTC) 11. I have re-presented this request into chapters and supplied numerous secondary sources, so have discarded the Primary Sources template

I hope this is now good enough to publish. Kind regards, Okeeffemarc (talk) 22:58, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Reply

 * 1) Which editors have helped you, and why haven't they implemented these changes?
 * 2) The stats are unreferenced.
 * 3) The article as it stands now reads too much like a story, with too much detail (e.g., "One month later, O'Keeffe defended the title against Charlie Allum and knocked him out in the sixth round. He had already met Charlie Allum twice before the 1906[5] championship fight, in 1904[6] and 1905.[7] They met twice more in 1907.[8] By a narrow points margin [sic] after a hard fought 15 rounds one month later." Also in that example you have almost every single fight listed with Charlie Allum. This is not a summary of information, rather, it is a detailed compendium of every single fight. That is not the purpose of Wikipedia, per WP:NOTDIARY and WP:NOTSTATSBOOK. I would recommend visiting WP:BETTER for ideas on how to make the writing here better.
 * 4) It would be best if you deleted older draft versions of the article from this page, or else archived them, as they are getting too unwieldy to remain.
 * Regards,      Spintendo       08:29, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

1. I mean the editors on this talk page who have responded to my requests, have always been constructive, polite and patient. I guess they haven't been implemented because each time something else is noticed that needs rectifying. Not complaining, understand and appreciate that this helps improve the draft.
 * Hello, thanks for your reply;

2. The stats are referenced in the external links section. MOS:BOXING/RECORD (External reference paragraph) states to either do this or cite directly. if i'm wrong on this, happy to change it.

3. I will work on re-wording the article using the WP's you have mentioned, then re-submit.

4. I've deleted the old drafts, but have left the comments.

thanks again for your help Okeeffemarc (talk) 17:09, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Request edit on 2 March 2018: Lead and first section only.

 * Thank you and  for your helpful replies.

I will now put forward edit requests section by section, instead of the whole article i hope to publish. This is the only method of peer review i can use, as WP:PR requests only work on main-space talk pages. If you would like to look at the whole draft article in it's current form, it is here, feel free to edit mistakes and poor wording if you like.

Please replace the existing lead section:


 * Thank you, but please allow for additional opinions on this matter to be brought to the table, for a consensus to form on whether this is a proper COI edit request. I raised that question only yesterday, and thus far we've received input from one person. Until more input is received and a decision is made, please do not reopen the template. Regards,      Spintendo       15:26, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Pat O'Keeffe (17 March 1883 – 16 August 1960, spelled by many sources as Pat O'Keefe), was an English boxer who became British champion at both welter and middleweight. His professional career spanned between 1902 and 1918, and in 1914 he made an unsuccessful bid at the European Heavyweight belt, losing to Georges Carpentier. Between 1907 and 1910 he left Britain and continued his boxing career firstly in the United States and then Australia. He finished his career in 1918, defeating Bandsman Blake to win his Lonsdale belt out right.

O'Keeffe died on 16 August 1960 at the Mount Vernon Hospital in Middlesex, aged 77.



Request edit on 1 March 2018
1. Please replace this version of Pat O'Keeffe 2. With this version: adds more relevant detail about key points in his life and career. Then please add the following: 3. Professional boxing Early career:1902-1907 4. International career:1907-1910 5. Late career:1911-1918 6. Military service during World War I 7. Retirement 8. Professional boxing record 9. See also/refs/links '''9. Have expanded this article to include important and relevant parts of his career and life and have addressed pick ups from various editors. Kind regards, Okeeffemarc (talk) 21:18, 1 March 2018 (UTC)'''

Reply
Point #3 was addressed with the example I gave, but the article contains many more. Technically, this is still in development. You're not asking for one or two edits, you're asking for the entire article to be replaced wholesale. I don't believe that is the purpose of COI edit requests. Normally I would recommend WP:PR, but as this is a draft version, I believe it ought to go through WP:AFC. This is territory best covered by editors at WP:AFC, who are thoroughly versed in its requirements and constantly deal with article-sized requests. Any editor who knows differently, or if I'm completely wrong about this, please speak up. Otherwise the article sits here as an edit request no one is willing to take. I don't think that's fair you as the editor who is trying to get these changes made. I'm just trying to steer you in the most advantageous direction.      Spintendo       22:40, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Hello, checking in from AFC here: to the best of my knowledge, it's a firm rule that AFC is not for drafts intended to replace/supplement existing articles. The biggest single issue on AFC is Notability, and given that a stable existing article has presumably passed the Notability test, that obviates like 75% of the need for AFC. So my suggestion (from a quick scan of this Talk page) is that go with the lowest-hanging fruit and pick one section at a time that has the strongest sourcing, best laid-out, and adds the most to the article, get consensus for adding that, and then continue the process.
 * I realize integrating two disparate versions, one very long, is a complex issue, but AFC isn't the venue for it. MatthewVanitas (talk) 00:22, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for this information. I don't believe that this request is equivalent to a supplement. Supplementary information is small pieces here and there which augment already established information. When this article was created, it contained little more than a birthdate. That's it. So you see, this article never went through the AFC process to begin with. The information here is all new information raising the same questions of notability which the article never answered a first time.      Spintendo       15:14, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Ive placed a discussion request in the Village pump, I'm copying it here so others can read it.  Background information: Thank you for your attention, and I look forward to reading your responses.      Spintendo       19:20, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
 * In 2011 the Pat O'Keefe article was created. The article concerns the life and times of a boxer who lived during the roaring twenties. The article was created by an editor who placed very general information upon it, such as the birthdate, name, etc. Very general claim statements. Over the years, the article never grew beyond a few sentences at most.
 * Fast forward to today, where a relative of the boxer (who has an announced and recognized COI) has written a brand new article (which I'll call the draft version). They would like this draft version to supercede the current article (which I'll call the LS, or long standing version). They have been using the COI edit request system in the attempt to place the information from the draft version into the LS version. I have two questions here:
 * 1) The LS version, since the day it was activated, has never undergone any kind of formal review process, such as WP:AFC. Its texts have never been examined in detail, nor has any other details, large and small, been vetted through the lense of the AFC process. With this new draft version, isn't now the best time to place this draft in front of that process, in order that it might receive all those benefits, carried out by editors experienced in the AFC process?
 * 2) Is submitting the draft version for COI edit requests an appropriate use of the COI system? I had thought that edit requests were to be actionable directives placed before the community in order to quicky review and approve information into already well established and functioning articles where a COI presence was indicated. It is rare for a COI edit request to involve the entire article. Is the proposal to re-write the article within the intended scope of the COI edit request system?

Request edit (removed by requester) on 9 March 2018

 * Hello, i do appreciate you taking a look. Thanks for your advice and tips.

would you be happy to publish?

Pat O'Keeffe (17 March 1883 – 16 August 1960, spelled by many sources as Pat O'Keefe), is a former professional English boxer who became British champion at both welter and middleweight. His professional career spanned between 1902 and 1918, and in 1914 he made an unsuccessful bid at the European Heavyweight belt, losing to Georges Carpentier. Between 1907 and 1910 he left Britain and continued his boxing career firstly in the United States, and then Australia. On the outbreak of World War One he joined the British Army to work as a Physical Training Instructor (PTI) and Recruiting Sergeant for the 1st Surrey Rifles. He won the Lonsdale Belt outright when he defeated Bandsman Blake at the National Sporting Club (N.S.C) on 28 January 1918, becoming British Middleweight Champion and winning the Lonsdale belt outright. .

O'Keeffe died on 16 August 1960 at the Mount Vernon Hospital in Middlesex, aged 77.

Early career:1902-1907
One of the earliest of his recorded fights was against Jack Palmer. O'Keeffe defeated Palmer on two occasions over six rounds during 1902. In 1903, at the age of twenty, he beat Jack Kingsland in a match fought at Olympia to win the title of Welterweight Champion of England.

In 1906, having fought many of the top contenders for the British Middleweight Title, O'Keeffe was elected to contest the championship. O’Keeffe won the title beating Mike Crawley in a fight that lasted fifteen rounds.

One month later, O'Keeffe defended the title against Charlie Allum and knocked him out in the sixth round. O'Keeffe lost his belt the very next bout to Tom Thomas at the N.S.C. By a narrow points margin.

a year later in Paris, O'Keeffe defeated Allum again by knock out and won two hundred pounds. This bout was billed the French Middleweight Championship. O'Keeffe never defended the claim.

International career:1907-1910
After losing the British Championship title, O'Keeffe travelled the world and fought all over the United States and Australia.

In 1907, O'Keeffe fought World Middleweight Champion Billy Papke and World Welterweight Champion Henry Lewis. with just over a month of rest in between. The match in Philadelphia with Papke was a very hard fought for draw and he lost his bout with Henry Lewis by a points decision in Boston, Massachusetts. The bout was originally scheduled for 19 December 1907 but was stopped by the Police. The fight went ahead on the 23 December 1907. Just 3 days later O'Keeffe fought his final bout in the US against Willie Lewis in New York. Lewis is said to have entered O'Keeffe's dressing room just before the fight, berating his apparent belly, quipping that he might kill him if he punched him there. O'Keeffe lost by knock out. Despite not winning a bout in the US, O'Keeffe was upbeat and In February 1908, he returned to England with a message in Sporting Life, declaring that "he is here for business", in a wide ranging article that revealed he contracted Malaria in the US, the article claims that anyone who wanted to challenge that statement need only send money to Sporting Life, with correspondence addressed to O'Keeffe and it would receive his immediate attention.

Answering his message in the Sporting Life, O'Keeffe's next bout was at the end of March on foreign soil where he drew against fellow Canning Town boxer Steve Smith at the Wonderland Francais, Paris. Less than 2 weeks later at the same venue, O'Keeffe was disqualified for a low blow in the 4th round against Jeff Thorne. Later that year, O'Keeffe toured Australia with Tommy Burns, the world Heavyweight champion. At 5’7", Burns is the shortest boxer ever to hold the title which he had won in 1906. He also managed to successfully defend it eleven times against all claimants until he met with Jack Johnson on Boxing Day in 1908.

While in Australia, O'Keeffe and Burns trained together and used to invite the public to watch these exhibitions of their skills.

O'Keeffe fought a number of contests in Australia, mostly against heavier opponents. winning 2, drawing 1 and losing 3.

Late career:1911-1918
He did not ﬁght in England again until 1911, when he fought Eddie Mcgoorty, losing on points over ﬁfteen rounds. McGoorty went on to become world champion in 1915. After losing to McGoorty, O'Keeffe fought and won the next five ﬁght's between 1911-1913. His next defeat was a points decision against Private.Harris which he reversed over twenty rounds two months later, after defeating Frank Mantell twice in 7 days.

on 4 August 1913 he challenged Bombardier Billy Wells for the British Heavyweight Championship. O'Keeffe put up a good show against this tall heavyweight who was almost three stones heavier. Wells succeeded in knocking O'Keeffe out in the ﬁfteenth round after a hard ﬁght.

O'Keeffe's next bout was against the young prodigy Georges Carpentier. The match was billed as for the Heavyweight Championship of Europe although both men were under the light heavyweight weight limit. O'Keeffe was knocked out in two rounds by the man who at the time appeared capable of beating all of Europe’s boxers in quick succession. O'Keeffe gave a simple no nonsense reason for his defeat to the Sheffield Daily Telegraph: "He was too big and strong for me."

His next ﬁght was against Henry Reeve for the British Middleweight Championship on 2 February 1914. O'Keeffe won on points over twenty rounds. Later Reeve moved up to the light heavyweight division and won the British championship in 1916 against Dick Smith. Pat O'Keeffe vs Nicol Simpson.png. In May of the same year he earned his second notch on the belt by defeating Jim Sullivan who had himself held the belt in 1910 when he beat an old adversary of O'Keeffe's, Tom Thomas. O'Keeffe earned six hundred and ﬁfty pounds for winning this ﬁght.
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A year later in March 1915, he fought and knocked out the heavyweight, Joe Beckett in eight rounds. Following this O'Keeffe return fight with Jim Sullivan. Although the fight was billed as being for the British Middleweight Title, the ﬁght was not endorsed by the N.S.C. Therefore the Lonsdale belt was not at stake on this occasion, The two met again on 21 February 1916. Jimmy Wilde, the former Flyweight champion, described the fight as the most punishing he had ever seen. Both men fought as though their lives depended on it. The ring and spectators sitting nearby were splashed with blood by the end of the battle and it can be seen from photographs of the event that Sullivan’s white shorts were dark with blood by the end of twenty rounds when O'Keeffe gained the decision. 2 months later O'Keeffe fought Bandsman Blake and knocked him out in the thirteenth round. Blake had a ﬁne record at this stage having lost to only one man to date in his ﬁve year professional career, Bombardier Billy Wells.



Just three months later, on 22 May 1916, O'Keeffe was at the N.S.C. To do battle with Bandsman Blake again. The £500 match went the full 20 rounds. "The contest was not a good one" according to the Sheffield Independent. In the 12th round, the referee gave both fighters a last warning that he'd order them both out of the ring if they did not alter their methods. The paper claimed blame for this messy fight lay squarely with Blake, citing his constant clinching and holding, which was employed to avoid the infighting quality of O'Keeffe. Blake won the contest on points, this verdict was "received by a crowded house with something almost akin to amazement", the Sheffield Independent states.

Thus O'Keeffe lost both the Championship and his Lonsdale belt. Following this ﬁght, both O'Keeffe and Blake were posted to France and the return ﬁght demanded by the fans not take place until their return.

On the 28 January 1918, O'Keeffe fought his last professional fight, defeating Blake to win the Lonsdale Belt outright along with an N.S.C Pension.

In an article two days later, the Sportsman reported on the tributes being paid to O'Keeffe at the N.S.C. "No more popular ring victor in recent years has been seen than Sergt Pat O'Keeffe" it begins. Arthur Frederick Bettinson, one of the founding members of the Club remarked on O'Keeffe's exploits, remembering his name on the belt in both 1914 and 1918 and congratulated O'Keeffe as a sportsman and a man. O'Keeffe replied to these tributes modestly, claiming that securing the Lonsdale Belt as his own was one of his key ambitions in his career. He would now concentrate on charity and family he said. O'Keeffe retired from professional boxing having made many lifelong friends.

Military service during World War I
At the start of 1915, O'Keeffe joined the 1st Surrey Rifles. He was a Physical Training Instructor and Recruiting Sergeant.

extract form an Article about O'Keeffe's recruiting skill: He found Army life (at the Regiment's home at Camberwell at least) suited his boxing training well. With good plain food, strict routine and drill, plenty of sparring partners and ample space to train, he thrived in a friendly atmosphere where he was very popular with the men.

O'Keeffe and other boxer-turn-soldiers planned activities to help boost morale of injured troops, one such time was when they organised a boat trip down the Thames.

Retirement
O'Keeffe remained a public figure for many years. He took a seat on the inaugural British Boxing Board of Control with fellow ex champion boxers Billy Wells and Jim Driscoll. He participated in charity events, such as boxing an Aston Villa footballer player, refereed amateur tournaments and took part in charity exhibition matches, most notably with his old rival Bombardier Billy Wells. These exhibitions could some times get heated, with O'Keeffe said to have once shouted "Stop it Billy! - I'm not the kaiser!". O'Keeffe was a regular star spectator at big bouts. He also had his own boxing column in the Daily Herald for a while

O'Keeffe carried on working. He was engaged in the licensing business, was a Publican and was involved in bookmaking. He was employed as a boxing instructor for both the French and British Army in 1925.

In March 1938, the N.S.C. Moved into new premises in Piccadilly and held a banquet to honour the occasion. There were hosts of fighters presented including many of the old timers, Jimmy Wilde, Billy Wells, Teddy Baldock, Pedlar Palmer, Tancy Lee, Johnny Basham and O'Keeffe.

O’Keeffe died 16 August 1960 at the age of 77.

Professional boxing record

 * style="text-align:center;" colspan="8"|Notable bouts
 * - style="text-align:center; background:#e3e3e3;"
 * style="border-style:none none solid solid; "|Res.
 * style="border-style:none none solid solid; "|Record
 * style="border-style:none none solid solid; "|Opponent
 * style="border-style:none none solid solid; "|Type
 * style="border-style:none none solid solid; "|Round
 * style="border-style:none none solid solid; "|Date
 * style="border-style:none none solid solid; "|Location
 * style="border-style:none none solid solid; "|Notes
 * - align=center
 * Win
 * 73-24-7
 * align=left|Bandsman Jack Blake
 * KO
 * 2(20)
 * 1918-01-28
 * align=left|NSC, Covent garden, London
 * align=left|Regains British Middleweight title
 * - align=center
 * loss
 * 72-23-7
 * align=left|bandsman Jack Blake
 * PTS
 * 20
 * 1916-05-22
 * align=left|NSC, Covent garden, London
 * align=left|Loses British Middleweight title
 * - align=center
 * win
 * 60-23-7
 * align=left|Harry Reeve
 * PTS
 * 20
 * 1914-02-23
 * align=left|NSC, Covent garden, London
 * align=left|Wins British Middleweight title
 * - align=center
 * loss
 * 60-22-7
 * align=left|Georges Carpentier
 * KO
 * 2(20)
 * 1914-01-19
 * align=left|Eldorado-Casino, Nice
 * align=left|European Heavyweight title attempt
 * -align=center
 * loss
 * 59-20-7
 * align=left|Bombardier Billy Wells
 * KO
 * 15(20)
 * 1914-08-04
 * align=left|The Ring, Blackfriars Road, Southwark, London
 * align=left|British Heavyweight title attempt
 * -align=center
 * loss
 * 48-14-6
 * align=left|Ed Williams
 * KO
 * 15(20)
 * 1908-10-26
 * align=left|Cyclorama, Melbourne
 * align=left|Australian Middleweight title attempt
 * -align=center
 * style="background:#abcdef;"|Draw
 * 48-11-4
 * align=left|Billy Papke
 * PTS
 * 6
 * 1907-11-09
 * align=left|National A.C., Philadelphia
 * align=left|Papke later went on to become World Middleweight Champion
 * -align=center
 * win
 * 28-10-4
 * align=left|Mike Crawley
 * PTS
 * 15
 * 1906-03-19
 * align=left|NSC, Covent garden, London
 * align=left|Wins British middleweight title
 * -align=center
 * win
 * 6-1-0
 * align=left|Jack Kingsland
 * PTS
 * 20
 * 1903-01-02
 * align=left|Olympia, Kensington, London
 * align=left|Wins British welterwieght Title