Talk:Patois

Err...isn't Antillean Creole called Patois as well? And isn't it a Creole of French? john k 07:41, 12 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Many of the vernacular forms of English spoken in the Caribbean are also referred to as patois (occasionally spelled in this context patwah).

Is this not the standard pronunciation, given that it's apparently derived from French? Hairy Dude 02:24, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Macaronic language
How is a patois compared or contrasted to the concept of a macaronic language? Should we cross-link the terms or compose a paragraph explain the relationship? JimD 21:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see how they'd be connected at all. Macaronic language is a literary device, not a language. Carter 11:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Patwah
My understanding is that Patwah (with a capital P) is used rather than patois to name Jamaican English. This is because Jamaican English is referred to in vernacular Jamaican English in this way, but by not spelling it patois avoids the derogatory, incorrect assumption behind that word, with the capital P making it clear it is a language in its own right. Does anyone know if my understanding is correct?

I guess that the use of the capital P is much more common than it used to be, particularly as used by those who regard the language as a legitimate one, as opposed to those who object to its use in any type of formal education or discourse. The spelling used in Jamaica is almost always "Patois" and never "Patwa". I have seen that spelling used in Costa Rica to refer to the (Jamaican) creole language spoken there, mainly in the Limon district which is populated mainly by people of Jamaican descent. I guess that that spelling would also be common in other Spanish-speaking countries. Of course, there are linguists and advocates for the language who consider the word "patois" to be inherently derogatory and prefer to use terms like "Creole" or "Jamaican English".

Jèrriais
Jèrriais is called patios by most Jersey residents. Is this worth mentioning in article?


 * All regional languages are called patois. We'd end up with a pretty long list of all the languages that are called patois if we started down that road. Man vyi 14:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Breton, Occitan
"In France and other Francophone countries, patois has been used to describe non-Parisian French, regional languages and dialects, such as Breton, Occitan. It's a mistake. In France, patois is only used to describe dialects issued from Oil language, Occitan, Franco-Provencal or more generally french. It's never used to describe Breton (gaelic language), Basque or Alsacian (an Alemannic dialect). Occitan is consider as a language with several different patois.  TCY 23:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Refer to the Abbé Grégoire's report « sur la nécessité et les moyens d'anéantir les patois et d'universaliser l'usage de la langue française ». As fr:Histoire linguistique de la France states: "La Convention, suivant ses conclusions condamne « les idiomes anciens, welches, gascons, celtiques, wisigoths, phocéens et orientaux » jugés comme un obstacle à la propagande révolutionnaire. " As the article states, the word "patois" has been applied to the regional languages whether Romance or not. Man vyi 08:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Breton isn't a 'gaelic language' at all. Irish, Scottish Gaelic and Manx are the Gaelic languages. Breton, on the other hand, is a member of the Brythonic branch of the celtic language family - even it's very name in Breton - 'Brezhoneg' means 'Brythonic'.

More Emphasis on Jamaican Language?
Since "patois" is a term for the pidgin language of Jamaica in particular, shouldn't there be more clarity and emphasis on it's usage as an unofficial term for a widely used language or dialect in Jamaica and maybe in other countries that use the term?

- What or where is "bojnargia"? The final sentence in the article seems highly suspect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.141.125.243 (talk) 20:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Removed suspect addition. Man vyi 04:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Bojnargia is a derivation of the Italian city Bonaria in Italy. The last paragraph in the article discussed the Pautua or Patois French spoken in the Para peninsula of Venezuela. Bojnargia and Pau/tua are supposedly Creole or partially African/Afro-Caribbean in origin. I wasn't able to find anything on Bojnargia or Pautua, plus I changed the link of Paria because it gave me a place in India, not in Venezuela like it was supposed to take me. + 71.102.2.206 (talk) 14:59, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Jamaican/ Caribbean Example Section
Utter foolishness I think. Individuals need to think about what they post into main articles. Please provide concrete examples of Japanese, Italian, Hebrew and others as being part of the main Caribbean patois. Please provide concrete example. Patois is now considered a language, and even possibly a mainstream language.

By dropping a word here or there does not make it speaking a Language. If that is the case then English could be called french because at least 20% of the English language are made up of french words, and many other language influences. I find it interesting that the person who wrote this did not include Hindi, but reaches as far as possible to Japanese to hijack. Why oh why we wonder????..and continue wondering. There are many instances of hindi in English...bungalow and nay others.

. Jamaican Patois language comprises words of the native languages of the many races within the Caribbean including Latin, Spanish, Portuguese, Chinese, Japanese, Amerindian, and English along with several African dialects. Some islands have creole dialects influenced by their linguistic diversity; French, Spanish, Latin, Arabic, Hebrew, German, Dutch, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.156.175 (talk) 15:42, 19 March 2011 (UTC) 76.10.156.175 (talk) 15:45, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Macanese
Patois and Patuá read the exact same way. (I speak both french and portuguese.) The Patois entry should refer this existing entry for another form of Patois:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macanese_language —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.132.240.61 (talk) 03:39, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Patois
This page should just refer to the definition of the word patois because patois' don't just exist in the caribbean and not all patois' are related. Patois (pa'twa) is a French term meaning a local way of speaking. Many patois' exist in France as many regions of that country have there own local French or way of speaking French. The term came to the Caribbean by means of the French islands (Haiti, Guadeloupe, Martinique etc.) as French colonists as well as black and white creoles (people born and raised on the French islands) often spoke patois in informal settings this included when communicating with slaves from Africa. The Africans in trying to learn the patois and imitate the black creoles so-to-speak "broke" the language as anyone does when first learning a foreign language. This new simplified/broken patois was a much easier way for Colonists to communicate with slaves and quickly became widespread throughout the island and commonly spoken amongst Creoles of all races hence it gained the name Creole as it became the language of the Creoles. Today in Haiti it is rarely referred to as patois anymore at least not when referring to the name of the language but in the lesser French islands (Marintique and Guadeloupe), Dominica and St. Lucia it may be called Creole or patois. The term patois became absorbed from French into English and thus began being used by the English to discribe the local modes of Speech in the British Caribbean islands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.206.20.65 (talk) 20:44, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Singlish, Spanglish, Chinglish, Manglish
There are many half-languages based upon English, spoken by those with English as their second language. They consist of "mostly" English, but with mispronunciations, portmanteau words and words borrowed from the original language. I'm curious, do these count as patois? Singlish (Singaporean English), Spanglish (Spanish English), Chinglish (Chinese English) & Manglish (Malaysian English) are some that I have heard about, and unless you call them "poorly learned English", I think patois is the best word for them. If I'm wrong, don't bother - if not, they deserve mentioning on this page. Perhaps they even require their own category for "E.S.L. Patois Languages". 2001:44B8:218A:D00:3DFA:3127:CBFA:9ED2 (talk) 11:18, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

etymology

 * ... from pate "paw" ... + -ois, a pejorative suffix.

In modern French, –ois forms adjectives of locale, like Auxerrois "of Auxerre"; I'm not otherwise aware of it as a pejorative. Seems more likely to me that it's a jocular parody of such adjectives. —Tamfang (talk) 17:26, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Sources Patois spoken in Uruguay
Book by the University of the Republic (Uruguay) Udelar http://dedicaciontotal.udelar.edu.uy/adjuntos/produccion/742_academicas__academicaarchivo.pdf Etnicidad y Lenguaje Translated Ethnicity and Language By Graciela Barrios, University of the Republic (Uruguay) Facultad de Humanidades y Ciencias de la Educación Departamento de Publicaciones - 2008

I quote: Para los valdenses residentes en Colonia Valdense, por ejemplo, el patois sigue funcionando como LEtn, aunque ya casi no lo utilicen. Si bien actualmente la lengua de comunicación habitual en esta comunidad es el español, los valdenses están convencidos de que el patois es una de las características más específicas del grupo5, la lengua que hablaron y mantuvieron efectivamente sus ancestros a lo largo de los siglos.

Translation: For Waldensians living in Colonia Valdense, for example, patois continues to function as LEtn, although they are almost no longer used. Although currently the usual language of communication in this community is Spanish, the Waldensians are convinced that [patois] is one of the most specific characteristics of the group5, the language spoken and effectively maintained by their ancestors throughout the ages.

I Quote: Los valdenses arribados al Uruguay en la última postguerra, además del patois y el francés tenían nociones de italiano, adquirido a través de la escuela. En otros casos, el repertorio de LMigs puede restringirse a una sola variedad, como ocurre con los italianos que llegaron en el siglo XIX al Uruguay, quienes al contar con escasa o nula escolarización, manejaban originariamente sólo su dialecto regional

Translation: The Waldensians arrived in Uruguay in the last postwar period, in addition to the patois and the French had notions of Italian, acquired through the school. In other cases, the repertoire of LMigs can be restricted to a single variety, as in the case of Italians who arrived in Uruguay in the 19th century, who had little or no schooling and originally only used their regional dialect

I Quote Los primeros colonos Piemontese eran bilingües de patois 12 (su LMat) y francés, lengua de la cultura, muy vinculada a la religión y a la educación, que estaba muy extendida entre ellos.

Translation: The first settlers Piemontese were bilingual of patois 12 (their LMat) and French, language of culture, closely linked to religion and education, which was widespread among them.

I Quote El uso del francés y del patois subsistió durante siglos en el entorno italiano, y por cuatro generaciones en el contexto migratorio uruguayo.

Translation: The use of French and patois continued for centuries in the Italian environment, and for four generations in the Uruguayan migratory context. Taesulkim (talk) 18:48, 19 November 2016 (UTC)