Talk:Patriots (Metal Gear)

There's no Chinese alphabet. 80.133.247.62 13:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Ending of Metal Gear 2
I think there should be a mention on how Octagon obtains the name of the 12 members of the Patriots (one who is one of their biggest contributors) and found out the members have all been dead for a 100 years.

Origins of The Patriots (MPO)
Someone who has played through MPO should revise this article, based on the information presented towards the end of the game. This info seems to say that Ocelot, Big Boss, and a mysterious third entity are in fact The Patriots. This may also call for revision the "Agents of The Patriots" section, as Ocelot now appears to be member.

In another twist, it seems that The Philosophers did NOT become The Patriots. Ocelot seems to have killed all the Philosophers at the end of MPO. I speak only as someone who has read plot summaries, someone who has played the game should edit this article.

Rosemary is Pregnant
In this article it says:

"Rosemary - Assigned to spy on Raiden[15]. Became romantically involved with him and was impregnated with his child. However this can not be confirmed as being true or not. It has been a theory that this was only the computer (GW) fabricating this story.[16]"

I remember quite clearly at the end of MGS2, Raiden and Rose meet eachother (proving that Rose does exist for one thing). But afterwords Jack talks about how Snake told him about how people want their genes to live on, and Rosemary asks if he's talking about their baby:

Rose: Do you remember this place?

Jack: Of course. This is where we first met... I remember now -- Today is the day I met you.

Rose: That's it.

Jack: I think I found something to pass along to the future. He said all living things want their genes to live on.

Rose: Are you talking about the baby?

Jack: Yeah. But genes aren't the only thing you pass on. There are too many things that aren't written into our DNA. It's up to us to teach that to our children.

Rosemary really an agent?
For me it's obvious that that codec-call came from GW, and not Rose herself. It was an attempt of the Patriots to mess up the brains of Raiden, like the calls from Campbell during that part of the game. (Otacon found out that the transmissions from Campbell came from GW, remember?)


 * Throughout the game, the Rose we're talking to with the codec is the real one. However she is replaced by an AI Rose towards the end of the game, when the Patriots reveal the truth of the S3 plan. But the real Rose is also an agent of the Patriots (even though she may not have realized who she was trully working for) as she was hired to seduce Raiden. Folken de Fanel 11:43, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

But where in the game do they tell that Rose is an agent for the Patriots? The only time i can think of was when the Rose from GW was talking.


 * She told it to Raiden herself, in Arsenal Gear, in her last communication with him before she was replaced by an AI. Folken de Fanel 12:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Outside sources
Is there anything we can say in this article that isn't going to be sourced to a quote in the game, or a first-party making-of or behind-the-scenes work? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Anything? Hello? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

You're lucky I came along, first whats wrong with a first party making of DVD, the MGS3 article has tons of stuff sourced to quotes anyway. Finnaly you can't delete this your nomination was blown away, I know you didn't say that but I can read between the lines.

(The Bread 03:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC))

==LaLiLuLeLo.com]] Hey, take a look at this. Is it some sort of viral marketing or an ARG, I wonder? --Onias 19:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

WoW
So confused lol, all the diffrent ideas and theroys make my brain hurt I understand it but I had to read it twice. OUCH!!! User:Kami-Sama

Director of Central Intelligence a patriot
Go to the picture of the 12 men on this article in the history section and compare the picture of the patriot 2nd in one down to the picture of the Director of Central Intelligence what can be found on List of characters in Metal Gear Solid 3 the Director of Central Intelligence and the picture on this artical both look the same the Director of Central Intelligence's biography says he might be a patriot because of his high connections in goverment. User:Kami-Sama


 * Those are the Philosophers. There are no recorded names for the Patriots since Ocelot is in control of them. The one you mentioned here is a fictional version of Richard M. Helms...who, in the game, is killed by Ocelot on his way to the CIA shelter. The real Richad M. Helms died a much less eventuful death. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.250.214.91 (talk) 09:11, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

La Li Lu Le Lo debate
The person who wrote the paragraph about "La Li Lu Le Lo" being 5 missing characters in japanese language, well...doesn't even know the basis of japanese language. And he's never played the game in japanese.

Because in japanese game, it's Ra Ri Ru Re Ro (らりるれろ), which are of course 5 perfectly existing japanese hiragana.

So this paragraph is rubbish. Folken de Fanel 11:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * They are inexistant CHINESE characters. Play the goddamn game, or at least read the script. PUT THE PARAGRAPH BACK ON.
 * We're talking about a JAPANESE game, and about JAPANESE characters. I've read the script and I know it more than you. Unless you never noticed, Hideo Kojima is japanese and not chinese. Ra Ri Ru Re Ro (らりるれろ in the original script, which you don't know at all) are perfectly exisisting japanese characters. And there are no "missing characters" in chinese nor in any language: MGS2 is only a game, don't take it literally. The paragraph won't be put back, as it's original research, and completely false. Folken de Fanel 00:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * As far as I'm concerned, you're both idiots. Find a citation as to Kojima's original intent or a suitable thirdparty's interpretation, or delete the reference. Sockatume 00:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm concerned, I'm not idiot. I'm only explaining the truth concerning japanese language. Folken de Fanel 17:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair enough on the talk page, but neither musing can go into the article due to WP:OR.Sockatume 17:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I can't see where would be the OR in stating in the article that japanese language has no missing letters, and that the characters used in the original script are existing japanese hiragana...Nonetheless, there's nothing about all this in the actual article, I'm merely explaining in the talk page why the theory was reverted. Folken de Fanel 21:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, I was probably being a bit harsh. If it's all direct from the design document anyway then it should be fine.Sockatume 22:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I know pretty well that it's a Japanese game, made by Kojima, a Japanese game designer - I'm fully aware of the differences. I may not remember it well, alright, but what I mean was that "La Li Lu Le Lo" were five characters absent from the Chinese language. There was a discussion about in in-game between Otacon and Raiden, I believe. Sorry for provoking this much confusion (I really shouldn't have written "PUT THE PARAGRAPH BACK ON"; I was a dumbass at that moment, I admit it), but there are reasons for the Patriots being also referred as La Li Lu Le Lo, and it is explained in the game. Can someone go search the game script for the part that mentions that? If you don't mind, I may do it myself. That section doesn't answer the question, "Why La Li Lu Le Lo", and we really should put that answer.
 * As I've already said, in the original japanese script, it's Ra Ri Ru Re Ro (らりるれろ) : it has nothing to do with chinese language or missing letters. These characters are existing japanese letters.
 * This theory of missing letters is an original research, because there is absolutely no evidence to that. "Ra ri ru re ro" is just a random set of japanese characters. There has been nothing hinting at any further meaning. It's just like our "ABCDE".
 * As I said earlier, we're speaking of a japanese game, and in this case of japanese characters, I can't see what chinese language has to do here.


 * Also, even if I'm more at ease with japanese (not meaning that I speak it, but I have a little -very little- basis, contrary to chinese which I don't know at all) I know at least that there is no chinese "letters" or "alphabet", but only ideographic characters, called Hanzi. As they are ideograms, each character represents an idea, and not a letter.


 * Really, these explanations are fantaisists.
 * 1) they can't be linked to any concrete element. Ra ri ru re ro are just random japanese characters.
 * 2) these theory are simply incorrect. I can't say more, the people advocating these theories simply don't know these languages.
 * 3) the line that Emma spoke to Raiden in the game, was just an example of what could be the power of the patriots. It was just a simplification, to make their objective more clear to Raiden. But there has been no indication that this example has to apply to Ra ri ru re ro.
 * 4) I repeat again, these theories just don't make sense, there's no missing letters anywhere. And chinese language doesn't even have letters. It is all nonsensical.
 * 5) And no, it will never return in the article. In reference to the OR rule of Wikipedia, the articles cannot include unsourced or unproved theories. What we have here is a fan-made theory with no solid proof except assumptions by non-japanese and non-chinese speaking people. They have artifically linked notions that were never linked at all by the game creators. They taken everything out of context. Thus this part is original research. Moreover it is completely inaccurate, so now I hope you understand this theory will not appear anymore here, and that there is no need of further discussion. Folken de Fanel 00:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Shut the fuck up, you stupid moron. It was stated in the game. Go smell your own farts someplace else. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.250.214.91 (talk) 09:14, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
 * Stop insulting people and saying nonsense. Nothing was stated in the game (otherwise, PROVE IT). Folken de Fanel 13:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The Patriots, Digital Mentality
Metal Gear Soli 2 Grand Game Plan, page 31:

"Ames: [The Patriots]'ve surpassed the bonds of physical existence.

Solidus: Yes, they're nothing more than a bunch of decrepic old men now.

Solidus: So they transferred their mentality to cyberspace."

It's a fan-translation, but, since it's a translation, obviously this part had to present in the original text. So, I guessed it was worthy being in the main article and put it there. Seems to me like a good proof.


 * I'm pretty sure GW is an extension of the cyber-mind that governs the Patriots. Ocelot still exists as a governing entity of course, but it seems the ideas of the Patriots are the true leader while no actual body leads the group. This was probably done to keep the Patriots from falling into a Dictatorship, much like Gene had done to Fox.

Portable Ops Information
I've added a lot of information to the article based on information from the FMVs in Portable Ops. I've added the following paragraphs:

"In Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops, the antagonist, Gene, wishes to create a nation of soldiers, not unlike what Big Boss would try to accomplish decades later with Outer Heaven; however, as he tells Naked Snake, his idea of that nation is "an organization of shadows, without shape or form", that "will lurk deep underground and intervene in conflicts all over the world" and control history. Not only does that description fit in the description of the Patriots, but it is also similar to a voiceover of Old Snake used in trailers for Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots about the "proxy wars" that are happening, supposedly, between Liquid Snake and the Patriots. Gene calls his grand nation "Army's Heaven"; Snake answers his speech stating that he is just using soldiers for his own goals and that his country "is no heaven to soldiers", for their ideal place "is outside [Gene's] heaven" - a clear reference to the name "Outer Heaven" and a subtle one to Big Boss's and Liquid Snake's plan.

Also, in Portable Ops'' Ocelot reveals that he plans to end the Philosophers and that "[they] will carry on the spirit of the true patriot", seemingly a reference to the Patriots; he also adds that "it's all part of [their] plan to make the world she envisioned a reality", which many assume to be a reference to The Boss's dream of a unified world. In a phone call between Ocelot and an unidentified person, Ocelot reveals that it was all a plan of that person, who had manipulated the FOX Unit behind the scenes. Ocelot tells the person that he or she wouldn't be using him as a puppet anymore, which may indicate that he hasn't been following orders during the incidents of the games but that he is acting on his own will, but immediately starts repeating, in a surprised and/or confused tone, what the person is telling him: "Battle data?... From the Perfect Soldier? Genes... genome?... I see... Intriguing..." - which seem to be references to genetic projects related to the "soldier gene" so refered to in Metal Gear Solid and possibly to the Les Enfants Terribles and Genome Soldiers projects. Ocelot promises the person that he will help him/her with the project, but on one condition, that they convince Big Boss to join them, "so that [they] can become the Patriots".''

Many assume that the person with whom Ocelot is allied with is either Roy Campbell or Major Zero - the first, because Ocelot says "Well, I'''ll be damned" when he's contacted by the man who has been getting him information, and Campbell says the exact same thing when he meets Snake; the second, because the person who was collaborating with Gene (supposed to be Ocelot, since both men were been receiving information from another spy) had been informed, based on Gene's suposition, by "the man with the same codename as Null", who possibly is Major Zero (since "zero" and "null" both mean "nothing"). However it may be, it is safe to assume that man is the one behind the Patriots.''

On another note, it seems like the Wisemen's Committe, who have been dead for more than one hundred years according to Otacon, are not the leaders of the Patriots, but of the original Philosophers, since Ocelot had been searching for documents about the Philosophers to start the Patriots."

It has some speculation, but it is all based on the community's opinions about the plot, as you can see in the Metal Gear Solid: The Unofficial Site Forum. If you wish to cut it out only to the information that's not speculation, feel free, but remember that having this information without the speculation regarding the Wisemen's Committee and the contrast between Gene's "Army's Heaven" and Big Boss's "Outer Heaven" will contradict information already displayed on the article, as the fact that the Committee has been dead for over one hundred years - how can Ocelot be creating the Patriots if its creators were already dead? That's what I was trying to explain, through the community's fundamented suppositions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.180.133.182 (talk) 22:15, 17 December 2006 (UTC).


 * since Ocelot had been searching for documents about the Philosophers to "revive" them. Ocelot could also simply have meant the "revival" of the organization itself, not of principal members. - Actually, in the talk between Ocelot and the DCI, Ocelot tells the DCI that he wants to end the Philosophers,  so obviously he doesn't want to revive them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.180.133.182 (talk) 20:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC).


 * It was rather overlong (longer than the existing article!) and overdetailed (essentially a plot summary for Portable Ops), so I've abbreviated it, but I plan to fold much of the additional details into the Organizational History section- and I plan to do a bit of a re-write to make it clear what the significance of the Patriots is to the series. Anything speculative or based on discussions between fans about what stuff might mean isn't really includeable, I'm afraid. Hyperspacey 15:30, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed, what I wrote was a bit long, and I don't mind it being shortened. Your paragraph is quite good, but it misses some points - the Patriots are not the evolution of the Philosophers, since Ocelot, who seems to be a key member of the Patriots, even more relevant than we thought, says that he's going to "end them". I'm just going to add that, plus that Ocelot was apparently a founder of the Patriots and that Big Boss apparently was at least invited to join them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.196.5.120 (talk) 23:08, 22 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Big Boss definately joined. He has Gene's half of the legacy. Not to mention his joining was a condition of the Les Infantes project, which definately DID happen. It is becoming obvious now that Outer Heaven and Solid Snake being sent in was just a repeat of Snake Eater. Big Boss established Outer Heaven on the Patriot's behalf, it wasn't a revolt against America or anything. Solid Snake was to inherit his nation because Liquid Snake was too much of a failure. Instead, no one inherited it due to refusal, just like the end of Snake Eater. Also worth noting that Ocelot did indeed being back the Philosophers after Snake Eater. He was their pawn for 7 years until he got sick of it and killed them all. I don't think he liked the idea of them hiding in a bunker while America fell apart, leaving all the armies and citizens to die off. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.250.214.91 (talk) 09:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
 * This is merely unsupported speculations, you have nothing proving anything you said. You've merely written a fanfic. Article discussion are not for this. Folken de Fanel 13:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Name of the article
I suggest the article is renamed "The Patriots" or at least "The Patriots (Metal Gear)", since the organization's name is "The Patriots" and not only "Patriots"; evidence of this can be found in Portable Ops, for example in the last sentence of the game in which Ocelot says "So that we can become The Patriots"; it is subtitled "The Patriots", like that.

Plus, I say that "The Patriots" should redirect to the New England Patriots, since, y'know, more people think of them when they think "The Patriots" than MGS2

Redirect Questions
I've noticed at least one redlink regarding The Philosophers and there may be others. Should The Philosophers be directed to this article, The Patriots? Or should we wait until The Philosophers have its own article? If this has been discussed before, my humblest apologies. Ripberger 21:14, 3 February 2007 (UTC)