Talk:Patrouille Suisse

Blow-by-blow lists
We do not normally give lists of aircraft, pilots, etc. on Wikipedia. I have reverted some recent additions, in part because no justification for breaking this guideline has been given in recent edits, and in part because the editor concerned, FFA P-16 (Talk), has broken WP:BRD. Please contribute to this discussion below. &mdash; Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:30, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


 * This articel is about the Patrouille Suisse and the patruille suisse uses special call signs who are unique and only used in the swiss air Force. The aircrafts the patrouille suisse use are standart F-5E with a smoke generator in one Magazin of the boardgun (only 7 aircrafts in the Swiss F-5E fleet are equipt with this and paintet in special collors, and this Jets are also used as taget-tugs for the life air-to air shooting and ground-air shooting (together with PC-9). You can't compair the patrouille suisse with the Blue angles and so one because the Blue angles, Thuds and so one use theyer Aircrafts only for this and not for the usual missions also the Pilots of the Blue Angels and so one fly only for the the Aerobatic team, the Pilots of the Patrouille Suisse fly stil the F/A-18 in theyer Sqadrons. The Imatriculations are worth to be listet here because they are not numbert like for eg. the Frecces with number 1, 2, 3, 4,... the Patrouille suisse F-5E's immatriculation is in line with the Swiss Air Forces F-5 immatriculationsystem and not in a following line (no J-3082, J-3088). also it is worth to be on this page to say that the Team has also a Pilatus PC-6T turboporter in Patrouille suisse collors. Such basic informations should be there, I dident expand it to go deeper into each Pilots aircrafttype rating or listen all mebers of the grownd grew and writte down the parts of the show 2013. The page about the patrouille suisse is not very large so in adding this few basic informations  is far a way from blowing up the page FFA P-16 (talk) 11:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


 * For the PC-6 see  FFA P-16 (talk) 11:58, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


 * If the use of unique callsigns is notable (i.e. unusual) than by all means mention this, but don't list them. "Immatriculation" is not really an English word so I am not quite sure what you mean, but again listing them all is not what Wikipedia is for. The information related to aircraft usage is worth restoring, so I will add them now as best I can. Let me know what you think. &mdash; Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 13:58, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

O.K. I should use "Tailnumber", but in switzerland the therm Immatriculation is often used for the Tailnumber /Regristation. About the callsing, might I /you /we.. should just point out that this callsigns come from the Bambini Code, and the Patrouille Suisse and PC-7Team. But we should not go into the details of the Bambini-code here. May I should create (as sub page to the Swiss Air Force topic) about the Bambini Code .. It was established short for WW2 and used until around 1997, then replaced by the NATO brevity code).

Usualy the aircrafts are relatet to a Pilot (each aircraft is wearing the Pilot name next to the cokpit but (exept spare aircraft J-3089) unfortunatly I was not (yet)able to finde out what pilot has in 2013 wich aircraft. FFA P-16 (talk) 16:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The tail numbers, callsigns and names are not notable. Every aircraft in the world has a tail number or a registration and every aircraft that is airborne has a callsign of some sort; and in my experience every military pilot has a nickname and if he or she has a personal aircraft it is painted on the side. As the tail number isn't notable, the source (such as the Bambini code) is not notable either. It may be worth mentioning the Swiss Air Force's numbering system in the Swiss Air Force article, but if you just add text without any references someone will remove it. The team pilots having other duties in the air force is not unique to Switzerland either; this is the case in many other air forces' display teams as well; for example the RAAF Roulettes, Asas de Portugal and RNZAF Red Checkers pilots are all flying instructors. YSSYguy (talk) 06:29, 22 June 2013 (UTC)


 * This is not correct for the Swiss Air Force. Like I said the Patrouille Suisse Aircrafts tainmubers are in line with the "normal" Swiss F-5E and not like for eg the Frecce who the aircraft are numberd especaliy for the Team with 1,2,3,... The Patouile Suisse aircraft have this unique callsigns, only in this case in the Swiss Air Force  are this callsigns relatet to a Pilot, in all other (not Patrouille Suisse) the Callsings are not especaly relatet to an aircraft or an Pilot: At one day a Pilot / Aircraft is Falcon17 at the next day they could be Beast52, but the callsigns of the PS never change. Also the Patrouile Suisse F-5E's and the F/A-18C J-5001 are the only aircrafts in the Swiss Air Force with the Pilot's names paintet on it, all other Aircrafts have no Pilots name on it because usualy here aircrafts are not relatet to a pilot. So if there is a standart call sign especaly for the Patrouille Suisse (and for no other use, if a Patrouile Suisse F-5 is used as target tug it has a differend call sign because then it has nothing to do with the PS) it should be part of the article. The Bambinicode is unique and part of the history of the Swiss Air Force and the Patrouille Suisse and PC-7 Team. Its the wrong turn to supress such informations on the page about the PS  just because it is not a topic in other aerobatic teams page.
 * FFA P-16 (talk) 11:40, 22 June 2013 (UTC)


 * To be clear. If the system of tail numbers or callsigns is notable enough to be discussed in secondary sources (see WP:SECONDARY) then by all means describe the system and add reference to your sources. But if there are no verifiable references to the notability of the system, then anything you write will get deleted. Also, do not list the numbers or callsigns themselves, because Wikipedia is not a directory (see WP:NOTADIRECTORY). &mdash; Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 12:28, 22 June 2013 (UTC) [updated 12:31, 22 June 2013 (UTC)]

The Position and the Patrouile suisse call sign can be found her, relatet to every Member of the team in 2013. All Swiss Air Force aircrafts tailnumber ever are here .The Patrouile Suisse is part of the Swiss Air Force and the Bambini-code and the callsigns who are based on the Bambini-code are part of the Patrouille Suisse and the Swiss Air Force's history so it is worth to point this out. the PS is to see at airshows outside Switzerland and there often visitors who also listend to the radio and might are interestet to knew what this is about because of this  (and the fact that the article here about the Patrouille suisse is not realy big) adding this informations here  is not an overload of informations and the list i had ad was easy to read and understand. You can't compair it with other aerobicteams  if they don't have such kinde of use of the call-sign and tactical code. FFA P-16 (talk) 16:19, 22 June 2013 (UTC)


 * It is just not notable for an encyclopedia. Content like that belongs on a fan or airplane spotting website, not on Wikipedia. - Ahunt (talk) 22:05, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
 * This discussion is going round in circles. As several of us keep saying, the issue is not about overload, it is about notability. Your list violated WP:NOTADIRECTORY. Can I suggest you focus on content that will be accepted rather than repeating your arguments here? &mdash; Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 10:18, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
 * This is another occasion that I wish we had WP:SOWHAT. I can point you to a website listing the serial numbers of every Australian air force, army and navy aircraft ever used, another listing every New Zealand military aircraft and another even more impressive website that lists every single American military aircraft. The RAAF Roulettes aircraft tail numbers are inline with the other RAAF PC-9s; the RNZAF Red Checkers aircraft tail numbers are inline with the other RNZAF CT-4s; the CAF Snowbirds aircraft tail numbers are inline with the other CAF CT-114s; the RAF Red Arrows aircraft tail numbers are in line with the other RAF Hawks. The callsign situation is nothing special either - in the RAAF all pilots have a unique callsign, which is the squadron c/s followed by a number, so to use one of your examples if a pilot is on the squadron with the callsign "beast" and his number is 52, then every time he or she flies any of the squadron's aircraft his or her callsign is Beast 52. If he or she is in the Rouletts, then the callsign is Roulette 3 etc.


 * To cut a long story short, the consensus is that the material should not be included YSSYguy (talk) 12:27, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Bambini-code article
I have started a discussion on the notability of the Bambini-Code article and its content at Talk:Bambini-Code. I am concerned that much or all of the present content is not notable. Hoping you can contribute. This note is just to let you know, please do not run a parallel discussion here. &mdash; Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 10:28, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

COI
Sorry, but the main author sounds like a member of the marketing department who assumes every little detail is important for the world, even without independent sources. The Banner talk 18:59, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Patrouille Suisse don't need any marketing, they are well known enoug, and they don't doe the shows for money. t was a unique thing never before 15 AC  jets & props had flown such a display evere, and it was unique because of the 100 year Brithday of the airforce, 50 years of the ps and 25years of the pc-7 Team. at the air14 the biggest airshow in 2014 on the continent. This page is about the PS and this event is part of the history of the PS. So no need to delet it out. ~The reference was a youtube clib, as you don't acepptet  youtube as ref, i add the ref  direct from the saf homepageFFA P-16 (talk) 19:30, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Edit war
Unfortunately, we have an edit war now. FFA P-16 does not allow irrelevant, poorly sourced info me left out of the article. He is now on four reverts, so playing with fire...

The contested parts are the following:
 * 1) A unique Flight Demonstration was performed by the Patrouille Suisse on September 7, 2014 at the Air14 Air Show in Payerne as they flew a 15-plane display with the PC-7 Team.  Originally sourced with an unsuitable YouTube-clip, it is now sourced with a related source. No independent sources for this "unique Flight Demonstration" that seems to be a once of.
 * 2) A Pilatus PC-6 V-622 "Felix", painted in Patrouille Suisse colours, transports the commander, announcer and the team groundcrew.  To my opinion not a member of the showteam but a special painted transport plane.

To my opinion, both sections are irrelevant and could be left out of the article without any damage. The Banner talk 19:42, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

that they are irrelevant is your opinion, i see this differend. One is part of the history of the PS, such a formation was special for the Air14, and such a formation a display of two teams at the same time fliying together a display was a world premier.

And deleting out the PC-6T is wrong, the V-622  "Felix"is the only PC-6T in PS colors  it belongsas suport aircraft to the Team, remeber  the Blue angles  fly F/A-18 but you can also finde the C-130 "Fat Albert" in the wikipedia page  about the blue's. Exept the PS F-5 Tiger there is the PC-6T V-622 the only aircraft in PS color no other PC-6T, PC-7, PC-9, PC-12, PC-21 BE20, BE1900, F/A-18  DHC-6   Daimond42 or Falcon900 of the swiss air Force is wearing this PS colors or Patrouille suisse tittle.. It belongs to the Team and so it is right to have this information here on the pageFFA P-16 (talk) 19:55, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

For this Display from the PS and PC-7 Team are mote than one referenc, see for ex. Tele Züri (its not Youtube, its a private TV station). Also [] FFA P-16 (talk) 20:04, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * That you disagree was loud and clear, with an edit war. This is why I ask the opinion of others. The Banner talk 20:14, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Well you ask NOW for the opinion of others. After deleting out this informations several times ( I could say this tast~'s for me like an edit war.. every thing has two sides). It would look diffrend if you had put up this question here after the first time. But i think to blame each other is not constructive work. I know you are fast in saying some informations are irrelevant, in this  we are not the same opinien. How ever, I think deleting informatons out is very easy but to bring in informations is not so easy. So I think deleting out informations should not taken to easy.

I was in an article also the opinion that something has to be deletet out, but I first raised the question in the talk page about this, and the waited some days what people say about it. FFA P-16 (talk) 20:27, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but you are constantly adding irrelevant additions on articles about the Swiss Air Force (in the broadest sense). And you do it here, there and everywhere. You better start giving sources that comply to Wikipedia:Reliable Sources. The Banner talk 10:37, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Thiis is what you say, but in my eyes you are the one wo are constantly deleting out interesting or important facts on articlles with swiss air force topics. That the Patrouille Suisse has not only F-5e but also a sole PC-6t is important  and should be written. It is not a big text its just one sentens about it. But you go so far and have now also deletet the whole page about the swiss air force traget drone. A system of 60 (now 30) drones used by the swiss air Force is not something irrelevant.... FFA P-16 (talk) 11:57, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Then you have to prove with independent, reliable, prior published sources that the drones are noteworthy. And the same type of sources is needed for this article. The Banner talk 12:53, 17 January 2015 (UTC)