Talk:Patty Hearst/Archives/2014

POV question
Hearst has cultivated a surprising part-time career as an actress. "Surprising"? Isn't that a rather slanted comment? It's certainly not objective. --Michael K. Smith 23:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC) Even Hearst was surprised that Waters wanted to use her in his films. I don't think the word is out of line.

Robert Brian Crim (talk) 04:44, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Urban legend?
This paragraph seams odd and uses a lot of weasel words comments? 'A little known fact about Hearst is that before her arrest, Marianne Tavare (now Simpson) was thought to have been Hearst. One day while Simpson was out at lunch from work, an anonymous tip came in that someone had spotted Hearst (Simpson) at a gas station, and followed her to her work, where the police showed up to arrest her. They only found a room full of frightened bank tellers.' 'A little known fact' is common in urban legends and gossip 'one day' these are weasel words also there are no sources sited (I'm guessing it was someone's sister's friend's uncle's cousin) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Craobh sidhe (talk • contribs) 22:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, I'm taking it out Mikevegas40 (talk) 00:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC) 00:29, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Good idea: There literally were thousands of Patty Hearst sightings in 1974-1975, one reason why the FBI had so much difficulty finding her. There were so many tips that the Bureau was running in circles.

Robert Brian Crim (talk) 04:44, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for listening, boys. Queries or comments to geometry@infionline.net (I'm no longer with NewsBank). 2001:558:6015:20:70F8:A887:9D49:1799 (talk) 02:22, 11 June 2018 (UTC)RBC

Robert Brian Crim (talk) 19:05, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Maryknoll Priests? Confusing Margaret Singer with Louis Jolyon West?
Under "Trial and Imprisionment" this section: "However, according to Hearst interviewer Margaret Singer, a noted authority on prisoners of war and other victims, including Maryknoll priests[8] released from the People's Republic of China in the 1950s..."

[I find Stockholm Syndrome and Mind Control fascinating, so I was interested in learning more about these "Maryknoll priests" and their experience in China. This is what I found instead.]

The wikipedia page for Maryknoll priests contains no reference to priests released from the People's Republic of China in the 1950's suffering from Stockholm Syndrome (or any form of mind control). The article in footnote [8] was written by Louis Jolyon West, not Margaret Singer (though it does refer to her as the colleague of his who also reviewed the Hearst case and concurs with West's findings) and contains no mention of Maryknoll Priests or China, rather it mentions, "These conditions and and their consequences were comparable to those used by Communist captors to induce compliant behavior in certain American prisoners of war during the Korean conflict."

I find it particularly troubling that a Google search for "Maryknoll priests Stockholm Syndrome" (and similar searches) brings up dozens of references to Patty Hearst (who as far as I can tell has no association with that group), all of which seem to be regurgitating this Wikipedia page. I was finally able to find some references to Maryknoll priests who were held in the People's Republic of China and subjected to "brainwashing" but again, this search was obscured by references to Patty Hearst and I was unable to find an authoritative source. It is implied in this article and elsewhere online (usually using this article as source) that Margaret Singer studied Maryknoll priests that were held in China, but the wikipedia page for Dr. Singer only mentions that "Singer began to study brainwashing in the 1950s at Walter Reed Army Medical Center Institute of Research in Washington, D.C., where she interviewed U.S. soldiers who had been taken prisoner during the Korean War." I don't know how POWs in Korea turned into priests held in China. Perhaps there is something in Margaret Singer's writing that refers to the priests held in China but I can find no verification of that online (it also seems highly unlikely that Singer would have had access to the priests to study them). It would seem that this is detail was personal research with an entirely unrelated and misrepresented article inserted as a footnote. This is a classic case of erroneous information ("factoid") entering the historical record because people don't verify what they read here. I love Wikipedia but I haven't yet been able to grok how to edit/write/fix pages. If someone reads this could you please fix this?

There is no reference to Maryknoll or priests on the pages for Stockholm Syndrome, Mind Control (Brainwashing), Thought reform in the People's Republic of China, or Margaret Singer and none of those subjects appear on the Maryknoll page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Osofine (talk • contribs) 14:56, 17 July 2013 (UTC)



Well, perhaps I get the last word here after all.

I stress again that there is a definite difference between Stockholm Syndrome and actual "brainwashing." Stockholm Syndrome simply happens, because of conditions and the underlying personalities of the people involved. The abductors do not impose Stockholm Syndrome or, for that matter, even have to understand what it is.

"Brainwashing" by comparison is induced deliberately from the outside. In the extreme form appearing in HEARNAP, it is a process of deliberately traumatizing an individual, then imposing a pseudo-personality on her that serves as a psychiatric shield against the trauma. These kinds of psychoneurotic blocks were discussed in detail in the works of Dr. Nathaniel Branden [Breaking Free and The Disowned Self]. In extreme cases, such blocks can be the root of homicidal tendencies. The classic case re this is the Boston Strangler (another of F. Lee Bailey's famous encounters). [N.B.: I am not saying here that the Strangler had the condition induced in him by a third party.]

Underlying conditions for Stockholm Syndrome certainly were present in the SLA/Hearst case -- no one can deny that. But, it simply is not true that Stockholm Syndrome explains what happened to Patricia Hearst.

The key to what did happen was produced by Mizmoon Soltysik, one of the abductors, who learned an essential element of the process from Berkeley's Radical Psychiatry Center. Mizmoon was studying how to use immersion in violence to radically transform a personality into the very kind of reactive creature one sees in the Strangler. (Proof of this was related by Soltysik's brother, Fred, in his biography of his sister titled In Search of a Sister.) Soltysik was one of the SLA "soldiers" killed in the fire, and to some extent, her knowledge died with her. When, a year later, the effects of what she had accomplished began to wear thin on Miss Hearst, William and Emily Harris tried to duplicate the process anew by dragging Hearst into another bank robbery and (later) attempts to assassinate police officers by attaching bombs to their cars. It was this second bank robbery which cost Myrna Lee Opsahl her life; but, the best evidence is that the murder was a deliberate assassination -- an independent crime which happens in the same place at the same time. Thus, what the "law in the law books" says is that, whatever responsibility Miss Hearst had for this second bank robbery, she was the secondary victim of the killing.

I must hesitate to say more. What we are talking about here is a process by which a terrorist can kidnap an innocent person, then use the conditions of confinement to transform that person into a violent, deadly, psychologically impaired individual. I think our community here will understand that providing a clear road map for how to accomplish that process probably is not something we want to do in today's world.

-- Robert Brian Crim — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.112.56.154 (talk) 19:19, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Queries or comments to geometry@infionline.net (I'm no longer with NewsBank). 2001:558:6015:20:70F8:A887:9D49:1799 (talk) 02:22, 11 June 2018 (UTC)RBC

Anecdotal verification.
In the above thread, "Urban Legend" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Patty_Hearst#Urban_legend.3F, the writer points out how most people born since 1974 have little concept of how gripped the nation was by Ms Hearst-Shaw's abduction. She was never removed from California, yet a woman I knew in the Hudson Valley of NY was detained by the FBI for a day when someone in the area turned her in as Patty Hearst. Unfortunately for my friend, there was a very strong resemblance, so in the FBI Patty Hearst file, she is probably one of many such footnotes.

Thanks to Mr Crim for his interesting and thorough thread. Out of burning curiosity, I looked at the FBI's Vault site http://vault.fbi.gov/, but although there are many references to her various family members and a few tangential references to Ms Hearst, I couldn't locate the "Patty Hearst", "Patricia Hearst", "Hearst Kidnapping", or "Symbionese Liberation Army" file. Maybe someone with more imagination and time than I have could search further. Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 07:41, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Trivia
It currently says she was holding a full auto M1 Carbine. If it was automatic, wouldn't that make it an M2?



During the Hibernia robbery, Hearst was armed with a Universal carbine, caliber M1 (semi-automatic) which, as related, had been made inoperable, probably by William Harris.

During the incident in L.A. at the sporting-goods store, Hearst fired both this same M1 and another M1 which had been converted to fire fully automatically (there was no selective-fire feature installed). The FBI determined subsequently that the SLA's direct-drive mechanism was the same as that invented by Fidel Castro prior to the Cuban Revolution. They probably learned how to make the conversion from a Venceremos supporter who had been to Cuba previously to cut sugar cane.

The weapon Hearst is holding in the infamous "flag" photograph also is an M1 carbine; the "scope" attached is a five-cell police flashlight. It is not possible to say if this weapon had been converted by the time of the photo to fully automatic fire.

Robert Brian Crim (talk) 04:44, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The SLA had modified some M1s to full auto.Overagainst (talk) 10:26, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Symbionese Liberation Army [S.L.A.]
Be advised that this section of the article contains numerous false statements. For example, it mentions Gary Atwood (Angela Atwood's estranged husband) as associated with the group. He was not!

The section should be completely rewritten, especially since it may contain libelous information. I'd do it but I don't have the time right now.

RBC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.83.74.242 (talk) 21:50, 4 March 2015 (UTC) Reference please!Overagainst (talk) 09:59, 27 June 2015 (UTC)


 * OK. He was a radical and on terms of personal familiarity with those who made up the core membership during their preliminary discussions about the formation of the SLA. He's now out the article. Overagainst (talk) 10:59, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

* *  *

OK, but FYI: Gary Atwood was a Trotskyite communist who was the husband of Angela Atwood. In mid-1973, the two traveled to New Jersey to be present at the wedding of Angela's sister, Elena. Some reports state that there was a shouting confrontation at that time between Gary and Angela's father, Lawrence (an official in the Teamster's Union). Lawrence despised Gary, and Angela had been "kicked out" of the family when she and Gary married.

On the way back to California, the Atwoods stopped in Bloomington, Indiana, where both had gone to school. Gary stayed there for the purpose of enrolling in library-science courses at the university, and Angela returned to Berkeley alone.

It was only then that Angela became involved first with Russell Little, then with Joe Remiro, and they then drew her into the SLA. She was a very late joiner (her seniority number was "7"), and there is absolutely no evidence that Gary Atwood EVER had any association (or even knowledge) of the Symbionese Liberation Army.

Gary Atwood DID know William Harris, indeed was a close friend. But, they argued often about the propriety of armed confrontations, with Gary always on the pacifist side. Indeed, the very reason for him being in the Bay Area during this time was because he was a CO to the Viet Nam War and was doing volunteer work in San Francisco as an alternative to forced military service.

Robert Brian Crim — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.83.74.242 (talk) 16:42, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Husband
Her husband Bernard Shaw is classified as a policeman. Actually I believe he was her personal bodyguard. It might be relevant to detail their relationship as client and employee. Valetude (talk) 14:03, 21 February 2015 (UTC)



Mr. Shaw was a policeman with the San Francisco Police Department. He was detailed to guard Patricia Hearst at one point, and they became involved. After his divorce and their marriage, Mr. Shaw left the service of the SFPD and moved with Patricia to Connecticut, from where he became chief of security at the Hearst Corporation in New York City.

Mr. Shaw passed away in December 2013, a victim of cancer.

RBC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.83.74.242 (talk) 20:38, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
 * He was one of dozens hired to guard her like it says. Don't people bother to check refs provided before opining.Overagainst (talk) 09:58, 27 June 2015 (UTC)



The query concerned only Mr. Shaw. So, I'm not sure why it's relevant that others were guarding her.

RBC 208.83.74.242 (talk) 17:08, 14 January 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.83.74.242 (talk) 16:49, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Machine-gun rescue
Also be advised that this section contains a number of material falsehoods. There was no testimony at any time re Miss Hearst saying anything before firing the weapon, and the claim she fired at persons behind the light pole (Anthony Shepard) is demonstrably false (she hit the pole on the first burst, while Shepard and William Harris still were fistfighting in the street).

RBC 208.83.74.242 (talk) 17:09, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Addendum: I also have read the remainder of the article and find significant portions of it to be very poor quality.

I am strongly contemplating rewriting the article completely (unless someone here can convince me that I shouldn't). The general parameters of such a rewrite appear above.

RBC 208.83.74.242 (talk) 17:09, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.83.74.242 (talk) 22:00, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Removed she shouted that, a source exists but is not that good being a cheap book about terror groups. The actual refs provided in the article have him quoted that she fired a whole clip, and then used another rifle. The automatic fire went across the storefront. The manager dived behind the light post and his female assistant was slightly injured by fragments from bullet impacts nearby. He tried to pick up the dropped revolver at some point and that's when it got closer. I think its made clear in the article she wasn't trying to hit them, merely pin them down. She didn't aim all her fire far above their heads by any means. The light post was not holed at a great height.Overagainst (talk) 09:55, 27 June 2015 (UTC)



I don't know who "Overagainst" is or precisely what (if any) direct connection with the case he has; nor am I familiar with this new source he cites. I can say that I was at the trial of the Harrises in Los Angeles (for Rolling Stone magazine) and that I personally have examined the crime scenes there. I also can confirm that (then) Offc. Boggs was one of the initial investigating officers.

The conclusion in the article cited, purportedly by Capt. Seymour many years after the fact, was NOT supported either by the bullet pattern or the testimony of the witnesses, nor by statements they made to the FBI:

Mel's was a large sporting-goods store located in two storefronts that had been joined in the middle by removing a portion of the wall. Since it originally was two stores, it had two doors, the northern one of which was locked. The light pole was just north of this locked door, so it is rooted in the sidewalk at the northernmost edge of the store.

After the Harrises paid for at least some of what they took from the store, they exited the southern entrance (there is significant distance between the two doors). Shepard followed William Harris out the southern door, and the fistfight in the street occurred just north of this door.

Hearst was reading a newspaper in the van across the street; she looked up, saw the fight, retrieved the automatic carbine and, with it held in only one hand, shoved it outside the driver's window and pulled the trigger. When automatic weapons are fired, they tend to jump up from the recoil and to the right. In this case, the rifle jumped completely out of Hearst's hands. The first round hit the street divider; the second and third hit the light pole (all three shots made holes in a straight line). So, Hearst WAS trying to miss the people in the street (she was firing to the side, toward the pole).

Hearst retrieved the weapon and, as attempted compensation, turned the carbine on its side (Shephard, in his statements, says he saw the carbine sticking out the window with the clip extending from the side rather than underneath). Hearst fired again at the top of the building, emptying the clip. Shepard (and others) reported how, during this second burst, the stucco from the building came down on their heads. The bullet pattern is fully consistent with these reports, viz., that Hearst aimed at the top of the building, that the automatic was turned 90 degrees on its side, that the weapon as it discharged climbed up and to ITS right -- but now "its right" is the bottom window sill of the van. So, the weapon bounces off the window sill, and the slugs stitched a disco-ordinated sine wave across the top of the building.

At this point, William Harris shouted at Shepard something like, "She's firing on you; you better get out of here!" Shepard released Harris and scurried behind the pole. William Huett (the store's owner) and one or two others ran inside the store; William and Emily Harris ran across the street to the van.

Hearst meanwhile grabbed a second carbine, a semi-automatic (the one she had in the Hibernia Bank). This weapon had been made by Universal and, per Treasury regulations, was not readily convertible to full-auto fire (so it never had been and never was). Hearst then fired three more rounds at the store while the Harrises crossed the street.

At this point, the only persons Hearst could see were the Harrises and (perhaps) Shepard behind the pole. She fired away from both. At least two of these rounds penetrated the store -- one hit Lawrence Mecum in the breast pocket, where it mangled a mechanical pencil he had there; a second separated at the window, with the jacket bouncing back into the street and the core shattering as it passed through the glass. One of these fragments hit Patricia Huett in the forehead, causing her to bleed like a stuck pig but otherwise causing no harm.

So: Patricia Hearst DID fire the two carbines away from the people she could see (she did hit two people she couldn't see); one of the persons she hit was the WIFE of the store's owner, NOT his "female assistant"; William Huett was inside the store, heard his wife scream, "I'm hit in the head!  I'm hit in the head!" Shepard (the clerk) was behind the light pole, but only long AFTER it had been hit. He subsequently altered his story to make it look like Patricia was firing on him behind the pole, perhaps to deflect legal responsibility for his own firing at the fleeing van moments later.

Robert Brian Crim 208.83.74.242 (talk) 17:09, 14 January 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.83.74.242 (talk) 16:24, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Tania
The article on Tania the Guerrilla suggests Hearst's "nom de guerre" was after her. Any sources ? If so, it should be mentioned here. -- Beardo (talk) 16:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Name taken from Tania Burke, mistress to Che Guevara, according to the very tape in which Hearst adopted the name. See Pearsall, The Symbionese Liberation Army, supra.

Robert Brian Crim (talk) 04:44, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Update: According to Robyn Sue Steiner, Russell Little's former girlfriend and an original member of the SLA, she initially was given the "Tania" nom de guerre. Steiner was the one who stole the potassium cyanide the group used from the chemistry lab at Lanier College; she also was one of three people named in an SLA "death warrant" released at the same time Miss Hearst is heard on tape saying that she was joining the gang.

It might be noted that the description of Steiner given in the death warrant describes Hearst and not Steiner (which pretty much says what needs to be said).

Robert Brian Crim 208.83.74.242 (talk) 18:16, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Recent Vandalism (Correction)
It appears the missing material, previously reported, simply was archived (click "2013," supra).

-- Robert Brian Crim   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.83.74.242 (talk) 20:43, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Playboy's Roller Disco & Pajama Party (1979)

 * http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2446238/
 * https://archive.org/details/PlayboysRollerDiscoAndPajamaParty-49Min.1979SpecialWithRichardDawson
 * "Occasionally, we get the occasional cutaways to celebrities just hanging out and enjoying themselves, or at least making the attempt. Marjoe Gortner and Robert Culp look to be having a good time, as does Patty Hearst, though having just been released from prison, she was probably just happy to be able to choose her own outfit."
 * Xb2u7Zjzc32 (talk) 00:15, 18 July 2017 (UTC)