Talk:Paul Féret

Photo
http://bmarcore.perso.neuf.fr/tennis/champions/lenglen/Lenglen-03.html In ictu oculi (talk) 16:47, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Deleted French sources restored
The following two French sources were deleted as part of move from Paul Féret to Paul Feret: Restored. Just because this is not a BLP doesn't mean deletion of accurate sources on name-spelling is justified. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:51, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Revue économique française: Volumes 112-113 Société de géographie commerciale et d'études coloniales, 1990 "Je suis venu disputer les finales de différents Corps d'Armée à Paris ; j'ai battu un joueur classé en seconde série, puis un autre, et je suis tombé en demi-finale contre un certain Paul Féret, ..."
 * Louis Leprince-Ringuet Noces de diamant avec l'atome 1991 "... qui eurent lieu à Paris, après avoir passé plusieurs tours je fus éliminé honorablement par le jeune Paul Féret, ... "

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: pages moved -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:27, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

– Sorry folks to add this, but less pain all round in the long run to draw a clean line. Tidying up Biographies of living persons loose ends, adding these 6th and 7th BLPs onto Talk:Stephane Huet (sic) + 4 other BLPs RM (for all the same i-vi WP guidelines as given at Talk:Stephane Huet) since might as well do them at the same time, and would then have all 10,000 or so French-citizen Living People on en.wp at their French names. Additional notes (1) The name Féret is already in common usage in English among wine-drinkers, far more notable than a 1930s tennis stub. (2) Likewise the surname Lefèvre has 16x French citizen en.wp articles of which all (including Sophie Lefèvre originally, which was actually created at the correct spelling 23 September 2010) are/were at correct spelling. [prior to what looks like a gamed contested move which started from the unilateral move rather than restoring status quo and starting from 10-month stub history]. Anyway, purpose of adding 6th and 7th BLPs is to enterrer la hache de tennis, at least for French BLPs... In ictu oculi (talk) 03:11, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Paul Feret → Paul Féret
 * Sophie Lefevre → Sophie Lefèvre
 * You gotta be kidding me.... another move request for Sophie????? The third time in 8 months???? There has to be some sort of control or this could set a very dangerous precedent at wikipedia. The last move closed a month ago for heavens sake. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:02, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose The basis of your request is some other person? That makes no sense. 70.24.248.211 (talk) 15:21, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Support -- He was a Frenchman, and the correct version of his name should have the accent. "known in tennis as ..." should be removed from the lead, as nonsense.  I think it is notorious that English-speakers are very bad about reproducing the correct diacriticals, but WP should not follow these sloppy habits.  Nevertheless, a redirect from the present sloppy form should be retained as it is must easier to search without the accent.  Peterkingiron (talk) 20:51, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: removed the "nonsense". HandsomeFella (talk) 14:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Support -- even the WTA has Lefèvre's name with diacritics in its news article. As for Paul Féret, I speak French and I am convinced by the link in the next section whereas it is proven that he lived and played tennis before even the tennis association and its grammar-breaking rules were created. I would also add that none of the affiliated Wikiprojects were notified in the previous RMs for Sophie Lefèvre (as it is recommended) and as a result only four people voted and no wider and deeper debate emerged.  Lajbi  Holla @ me  •  CP  09:32, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Support -- use correct spelling in an encyclopedia. HandsomeFella (talk) 07:46, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Support; move these articles back to more accurate names. Removing diacritics doesn't make a name English, it makes a spelling wrong - and it's frustrating to see the system has been gamed again. bobrayner (talk) 12:09, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Support in the interest of accuracy. User:Lajbi's reference citation is amusingly apt. -- P.T. Aufrette (talk) 07:47, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Support; more accurate spelling. Doremo (talk) 12:57, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

lede "also known in Tennis as "Paul Feret","
Fyunck, I like the capital "T" as if Tennis was actually a separate country (or planet?) but I doubt many Wikipedians will want that in the lede of BLPs since the Fédération Française de Tennis (which note, exists on en.wp with accents) has in its annals that M. Féret was called "Féret." Please see Aux origines de l'exclusion du tennis des Jeux olympiques which has the following concerning Féret's exceptional readmission to amateur status in 1929:

That would suggest that wherever "Tennis" is, it doesn't include the Fédération Française de Tennis, nor monsieur Féret.... Please listen to the voice of all the editors who have asked you to kindly stop inserting this and similar lines into ledes. You must know it's not WP:OPENPARA for BLPs. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:51, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Fyunck, I see another editor sensibly deleted your "known in Tennis as Paul Feret" line and you inserted a new version "known professionally in English speaking countries as Paul Feret," with the edit summary "vital info restored". I've removed it, it'd edit warring, it isn't true (which "profession?"), and it certainly isn't "vital info," or even new info, that sports websites have more difficulty with foreign names than wine books. But this is a possibly living BLP, hence the discussion at WT:BLP about higher standards of accuracy that sports websites. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:22, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Why do you continue to edit war and remove important information about a players professional tennis name that our readers would understand? And I saw your proposal in BLP to try and change this to a foreign wikipedia that ignores sourcing. Maybe it'll fly but with all your lies piling up lately I really don't care. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:12, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Which lies are those, Fyunck(click)? Please try not to misrepresent others; that's the last thing we need in a contentious debate. bobrayner (talk) 12:07, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * He knows, and I've asked him to explain... with no response. So what he tells me is pretty much useless. That aside when you see that 400 million English speakers know this person by his professional tennis name of "Paul Feret", the six English references given in the article use Paul Feret, and the fact that the ITF (governing body of tennis) has in it's bylaws that it will always be in English, tells us this alternate spelling is important and used often. It must be in the article early on as a service to our readers. You don't simply whitewash and whisper as though the spelling doesn't exist. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:35, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Every English reader can convert Paul Féret to Paul Feret without any assistance in my opinion. It is really not that difficult (and necessary to add). All 400 million will know and can identify him when they come across his name in English newspapers. But I'm not bothered by the presence of that "clarifying" sentence if it ceases the RM-vendetta here. I've just expressed my view.  Lajbi  Holla @ me  •  CP  20:50, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

It seems there is no way to prevent Fyunck adding in "René Lacoste known in Tennis as Rene Lacoste" into BLP ledes. About 20 of the 100 BLPs he's done this to have had it removed, per WP:MOSPN and WP:OPENPARA, at least 20 editors have told him it is nonsense, including even those who are anti-"foreign names" for "foreigners" as titles. Not one editor supports this, but he persists. As of today all of the 100 BLPs he's added this in still have it. Short of 3 editors a day patrolling the 100 or so BLPs with this problem to revert/remove this, what way is there to prevent this being added in? In ictu oculi (talk) 04:23, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Which lies are those, Fyunck(click)? And why rant about people "ignoring sourcing" if they actually want names to reflect what sources say? Granted, not everybody agrees with you that articles should reflect the spelling used by one specific source which deliberately strips out diacritics - but that's not the same as ignoring sources. bobrayner (talk) 04:53, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * We use English sources at wikipedia if at all possible...readers don't care a lick about a source in a foreign tongue. There is much more than one source in all those articles that spell the names without diacritics. And I never said we should only use one source... I said we should look at all these English sources to make a determination. It's not my fault the ITF demands use of the English alphabet for names. It's not my fault that most English sources I look at for these players (BBC/NY Times/ITF/ ATP/Davis Cup/Wimbledon/Australian Open) spell the name in the English alphabet. It's not my fault that millions of US citizens are taught only the English alphabet in school. I search these English sources before creating articles to make sure I have the correct common name. I also made sure the foreign name was right up in the lead sentence to assist foreign readers and that the foreign spelling was redirected. And if it happens to be moved to a foreign version of the name then I expect the reverse so that those English only speakers can see the name that most every English source uses. That's important and not too much to ask imo. Some of the players change their tennis English names a tiny amount so it's not absolute that the English version will be exactly a stripped version... it just usually is. That's up to the player when they register. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:38, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * And what about WTA? You missed it in your enumeration in brackets.  Lajbi  Holla @ me  •  CP  08:57, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * True... and Fed Cup and Hopman Cup and Wightman Cup also. I guess the gals didn't count. :-) Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Well I just wanted to highlight my comment on voting above.  Lajbi  Holla @ me  •  CP  09:12, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah... I see. Well she has many WTA pages that have her name spelled Sophie Lefevre also. In your link the wta probably pulled straight from the Budapest Grand Prix update. But that's why we use multiple English sources when making a determination. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:29, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Which lies are those, Fyunck(click)? If somebody's lying in this discussion, it would be pretty bad. One of the worst kinds of lie is making up bad stuff about people who disagree with you. Wouldn't you agree? bobrayner (talk) 09:36, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I would. That's why it upset me when he did it and didn't acknowledge my queries about it. Because of it I don't really care what he spouts now. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:58, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Which lies are those, Fyunck(click)? A few diffs would be helpful. bobrayner (talk) 11:38, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd be interested to see some diffs too. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:27, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * So we can say the the same that you (and Makesense) blamed on Eurosport. That the WTA is inconsistent in diacritics use. They pull info from the Budapest Grand Prix without checking their own listing of a player (they even make a direct link to it)? I don't think so and you also just guessing. WTA has her name with diacritics within its site. That's a fact. So it is inconsistent. That's a fact. WTA and all the companies you mentioned are subsidiaries of ITF. That's a fact. So they are not as rocksteady in name usage as you thought and can be so easily questioned. You can't deny it by saying the proper spelling appearing in an official publication is just an "error" (which is a paradox in so many means). If any time you'll bring up these sites as a reason for anti-diacritics I will cite this and the many other instances I've found in their news articles as basic controversies in your argument. I would reconsider your point of view if I were you. Just saying.  Lajbi  Holla @ me  •  CP  14:56, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Subsidiaries of the ITF? I guess we'll need some sources for that. I didn't say it was an error, I said they probably pulled it in verbatim. I have no problem with checking all the English sources and if more use diacritics then we go with that. You are the one saying to throw that out and not use the sources, not me. My point of view for this English wikipedia is to follow the English sources and the ITF, ATP, WTA etc... and use the most common term for the title. This is overwhelmingly the English alphabet. Your point of view is to bury common English and use whatever foreign language the player speaks, regardless of English sourcing. I would reconsider that if I were you. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:26, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Restating the name without diacritics adds no information, any reader can do that mentally. This is equivalent to saying "some English sources don't include diacritics". Well, we already knew that. Adding this "known in Tennis" seems to be an attempt to make some kind of point rather than improving the encyclopedia or benefiting readers. -- P.T. Aufrette (talk) 22:49, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not. Some of the diacritic names are quite hard to read. And some players register with slight variations in their names. Maybe some older players didn't register at all and have no alternate name. The point is readers need to know these players have pseudonyms, especially when their common English variation is nowhere to be found in the article title. Tennis is a little different than your common everyday occurrence of foreign diacritics what with the governing body "for ever" using English and registration in English. And that's on top of almost all English sources using the English alphabet. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:31, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Fyunck, re the above, you'll have noticed Kauffner corrected some of the double-barreled "known in Tennis as" more usually "known professionally as" with the edit summary "(one version of the name, subject's "full name", in the opening sentence, per WP:MOSBIO)". My question is what will stop you doing this to tennis articles? As I said before Google search indicates you've done it on 100+ BLPs, and you've been asked by well over 20 editors to stop doing this (with or without citing WP:MOSBIO), with not one other user supporting it, but you continue to revert, so my question - what will it take to desist? In ictu oculi (talk) 23:27, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Which lies are those, Fyunck(click)? bobrayner (talk) 10:48, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Still no answer? The reality is pretty clear: You accuse somebody else of lying but it's actually you making up bad stuff in order to discredit somebody you disagree with. That's a Bad Thing, Fyunck(click). Will you strike out or delete your mudslinging? bobrayner (talk) 12:21, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No answer because I was not conversing with you about it, it was with IIO... and maybe you discuss every single item out in the open in full detail when someone has done a bad thing...I don't. We kept it more private. I will neither strike out nor delete it, nor accept your baited queries. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:40, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Which lies are those, Fyunck(click)? I keep on asking but you can't even provide a diff. I looked myself, and couldn't find the lie in question. Which leaves only one conclusion; you were the liar. You could clear your name by providing a diff, but instead... nothing but avoidance. You put the "lies" in the open; you are responsible for what you say; so I cannot fathom why you think my response to your comment is the root cause. Are you going to strike out or delete your lies and mudslinging, or are you going to provide a diff? bobrayner (talk) 10:58, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * What you believe is ok with me. If you want to join the liar club by mudslinging and lying yourself, that's up to you. Why you keep posting this here I have no idea since IIO and I discussed it between ourselves. I don't see this helping the article so I'm bowing out of this talk page unless something interesting comes up. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:22, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Bob, for the record I have not had any answer from Fyunck about why he is calling me, or now yourself, a "liar". It seems somewhat overegged for such a banal topic. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:20, 4 May 2012 (UTC)