Talk:Paul Klee

Untitled
This article was vandalized previously (everything was deleted and all it said was "poopie") so I rebuilt it. However, seeing as you know much more as I do on the subject matter, please edit it to return it to its former glory. Qmwne235 Thurs, 2 March 2006 11:22:25 -600

Moved the most recent version to the Talk: page. It seems rather inferior to the previous version by Camambert. It can possibly be merged somehow in future though. Kpjas Sun, 29 Dec 2002 18:35:20 +0100

Paul Klee (1879-1940)

Paul Klee was born on the December 18 1879 in Münchenbuchsee near Bern. His father was organist and music teacher at the local school. His mother was said to be a gifted singer, who soon started to encourage her sons musical ambitions.

Klee became a good violinist and also showed an early talent for writing. After getting his school-leaving certificate, at the age of 19, Klee moved to Munich in the year of 1898, where he first started to learn at the private art school of Heinrich Knirr, a member of the Munich secession. Later he studied at the academy as one of the students of the famous Franz von Stuck.

After his trip to Italy in the year 1901 he started his first independent works figured etchings. His stay in Milan, Genoa, Rome and Naples with its Mediterranean colours, its liveliness and also Italian architecture influenced Klee a lot.

In 1906 Klee married Lily Stumpf. The couple moved to Munich to exhibit his etchings at the secession. One year later their son Felix was born. The following years Paul Klee went into works by Goya, William Blake and Aubrey Beardsley. Klee produced a number of black-white prints and drawings. Artists like Cezanne, Matisse and especially Van Gogh had a lot of influence on him. In 1911 Klee joined the artists` group Der Blaue Reiter, together with Wassily Kandinsky, Gabriele Münter, Franz Marc, Alfred Kubin, Alexej Jawlensky, Marianne Werefkin and August Macke. Paul Klee especially showed a lot of interest in childrens paintings and folk art.

He showed his works at the second exhibition of Der Blaue Reiter. On the 5th of April Klee left Germany to move to Tunisia. The oriental landscape, colours and clothes fascinated and influenced him. During the first World War the painter found his friends spread all over Europe. On the 11th of March also Klee was called up. After the end of the war he moved back to Munich and started a lot of oil paintings. On the 25th of November in 1920 Paul Klee got his calling for the builders house in Weimar. There he got his own studio and gave lectures in creation and shaping. Due to this job his estimation rose. Everywhere in Germany and also other countries Klee` s exhibitions of his works took place. During the Twenties Klee wrote works about modern art and the basics of his teaching. In December 1928 the artist again left Germany to move to Egypt which again influenced his paintings a lot.

In 1931 he started to work as art teacher at the academy of Düsseldorf. When Hitler came to power, Klee had to leave the country. The exhibition Degenerate Art in 1937 included seventeen works by Paul Klee. He finally stayed in Bern, moved to Italy and France and met some of his old friends again. Paul Klee died in 1940 due to a skin disease.

Drawing is just taking a pencil for a walk —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.139.149.34 (talk • contribs) 20:39, October 17, 2005 (UTC)

scleroderma diagnosis
It appears sleroderma was not recognized as a disease until after his death: Paul Klee Centrum —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jwy (talk • contribs) 18:07, January 3, 2006 (UTC)

Jewish painter
In no source that I know of does he appear as a jewish painter. His father was german and his mother swiss. But I could be wrong, so I ask anyone to show me a source that proves that he was in fact jewish. User:Mistico

Klee's Heritage
I consider myself a relative authority on Klee, and within the 15 books on him I have in my library and various visits to his collections around the world, his heritage is always cited as German and Swiss. Never have I seen it listed as Jewish. He was Swiss and German. However, he does use the star of David in a number of paintings as a letimotif, and he was definitely an early enemy of the Nazis, having been forced to flee Germany before the infamous 1937 Nazi Degenerate Art Show. Though he was featured in this showing alongside many of his close Jewish friends, the show was not limited to Jewish artists, and included works by many groups of people the Nazi's wished to malign.

Thank you for rebuilding this page kpjas. Why on earth would someone erase the whole thing and write 'poopie'? a Nazi perhaps?!

Yes, maybe a Nazi. ==Klee Commenters==

I think Paul Klee is a very fine artist!

If i were to choose my favrite artist, it be Paul Klee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.11.234.165 (talk) 01:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC) he had a pet dog —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.247.45 (talk) 17:29, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Use of Quote
Klee's quote regarding his attempts to effectively use color ("a long struggle lies in store for me in this field of color”) is used twice in the article, in both the 'early life and training' and 'early career and marriage' sections. The first use is in relation to his trip to Italy (1901-1902), while the second appears to correspond with his early watercolor landscapes (both 1913). It also looks like it was taken from two different sources, as the first use has a 'that' included in the quotation marks (could just be someone's typing error though) and the second use has some more words attached to it. Using the quote twice is a bit boring, and creates confusion as to when it was actually said/written... can anyone find a source for the correct date/fix the article? Many thanks, an unregistered wiki enthusiast. 67.222.201.194 (talk) 21:54, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Heinrich Knirr?
...another thing. The article mentions Klee studying under someone named Heinrich Knirr. I'm currently doing a research type project on Paul Klee, and all of my print sources that deal with his childhood also mention Knirr, but most refer to him as "E. Knirr" (except one book, which spells out his first name as "Edwin"). Neither Edwin nor Heinrich Knirr have a wiki page to link to, and the information in the article now doesn't have a citation; so I'm not sure where "Heinrich Knirr" came from. It could simply be that Mr. Knirr sometimes went by his middle name or something, I'll try to look into it. 67.222.201.194 (talk) 02:05, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

okay, so after some basic google and wiki searching, it appears there were two Knirrs: Heinrich Knirr, a painter with a a private art school; and Erwin Knirr, a painter with a private art school. (I could find no Edwin Knirr, so that one print source of mine is probably wrong.) ...hrrmph. Heinrich was more of a "traditional/acceptable to the Nazi Party" kind of painter, so I suspect Klee studied with Erwin... but that's just a guess (and OR), so I don't know. I suppose I'll try to find a good source specifically saying who Klee studied with. 67.222.201.194 (talk) 02:27, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

meh, google scholar isn't being very helpful either. Klee's diary, which looked promising, only uses "Knirr," with no first name (it uses "Frau" a few times, but that's German for "Mister," right?). Some other results I glanced over mention Heinrich, Erwin, and "Hermann" as Knirr's first name. the plot thickens... and by 'thickens' I mean 'becomes exhasperating,' ugh. I think I'll just leave it as is for now and research more later; I need to finish writing about the rest of his education. 67.222.201.194 (talk) 02:44, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

frau is german for "woman" or "Mrs" so "Frau Knirr" would refer to a "Mrs Knirr",, (and Erwin is a male name). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.230.191.192 (talk) 11:33, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Public Domain
Paul Klee died in june of 1940, more than 70 years ago. His works are on the public domain, aren't them? --174.36.199.203 (talk) 05:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * No. For one, all countries I know of round up to the end of the year, so his works won't be PD in the EU until 2011. Secondly, not all countries measure copyright the same way, and in the US, his works post-1922 will be copyright for 95 years from first publication.--Prosfilaes (talk) 04:16, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks like someone has already uploaded a whole batch of Klee images to Commons. My vote is to ignore it for now rather than to have them deleted only to have to re-upload them 2 months later.  Litho  derm  01:14, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Not to comment on an old thread or anything, but why exactly would the US have a longer copyright term on Klee's work? It's the death of the author plus 70 years (rounded up), as far as I know. I've gone ahead and added some of his earlier works to the page.  Litho  derm  21:19, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Why exactly wouldn't they? The US created the Universal Copyright Convention because they weren't willing to agree to the Berne Convention. They weren't part of the Berne Convention until 1989. There's three important points: one, the US measured copyright as X years from publication (now 95) and kept that for pre-1978 works; two, the URAA restored copyright to any foreign work that lost copyright in the US for various reasons; and three, works published prior to 1923 even if it hasn't been 95 years since publication, since they weren't returned to copyright when the duration was extended to 95 years.--Prosfilaes (talk) 09:45, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If this is true it will apply to many other artists whose works we are currently treating as PD: Ernst Ludwig Kirchner, Robert Delaunay, and Kasimir Malevitch are ones I can think of immediately, but there are many others. Because of the far reaching nature of this I think we should request further comment from the community at large before making a decision here. Thanks,  Litho  derm  01:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If this is true? Is there any reason to think it's not true, besides you don't like it? This is part of the standard Wikipedia copyright templates, like PD-1923. All the offending images are on Commons, where this discussion has gone on before. I have no idea what decision we are supposed to make or not make here.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:43, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Next time could you just link me to the discussion on commons instead of doing what you did there? Your tone is like someone saying "I can't believe you don't know!" without actually saying what it is I'm supposed to know. So tell me!


 * I don't doubt the veracity of the Berne Convention's existence, but there are various issues specific to this case. Why is the law applied unevenly? If it applies to Klee, why doesn't it apply to Kirchner? Is it because Switzerland has been constantly under one government since that time while Germany has not, and so the "nation of origin" could legally be considered different? I don't know; I'm an art historian, not a copyright attorney. If that's the case, then how can Switzerland lay claim to the entirety of his work  when most of it was produced in Germany? Once again, I don't know. So please, more explanation and less of the snitty replies. Litho  derm  23:15, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Next time could you not say "If this is true" if you don't in fact have any evidence it's not true?


 * I don't know why you don't think it doesn't apply to Kirchner; it does. All works published after 1923 that were under copyright in their home nations in 1996 (for nations that had copyright relations with the US in 1996) are still in copyright in the US.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:14, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Dying request?
"His artwork was considered too revolutionary, even degenerate, by the Swiss authorities, but eventually they accepted his request six days after his death."

Which request is this? His request for Swiss citizenship? DS (talk) 14:44, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

German article
hello,

I am currently trying to translate the German featured article. The draft is located here. Maybe apart of the so-so English, what do you think about the work so far? Should I continue, or should I drop it? Any help would be appreciated! Regards.-- ♫GoP♫ T C N 16:17, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Usage of images not in the public domain in the U.S.
To paraphrase, Klee's works post-1922 are not in the public domain in the U.S. because their copyright in the U.S. was restored by the Uruguay Round Agreements Act when they were still copyrighted in their source countries on the URAA date (January 1, 1996).

The copyrighted works cannot be displayed here for that reason, so I will remove them once this is understood. Hekerui (talk) 13:47, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Add Fair use rationales for use in the United States...Modernist (talk) 14:05, 11 March 2015 (UTC)


 * In Visual Arts and the Law: A Handbook for Professionals, By Judith B Prowda, it is stated: "Potentially, therefore, the copyright on works by artists such as Paul Klee... could be revived." Hekerui, could you provide a link to a source that states the copyright on Klee has been revived? Coldcreation (talk) 15:24, 11 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Check this page. The court decision makes it clear these media are copyrighted. On the Commons, deletion is the issue in question, for us here, the inclusion of these media. WP:IUP would require non-free use rationales for the use of copyrighted images. For this, we could not use the Commons images, because they don't follow WP:NFCCP. What would be left is uploading local versions that follow non-free content criteria. #3 and #8 would make usage in a gallery very questionable. This article has plenty free images, we should be able to cope using only drawings/paintings from 1922 or earlier. Hekerui (talk) 15:55, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Klee is not mentioned on the link above. Can you provide a link to a source that explicitly mentions the works of Klee as falling under URAA copyright law? Coldcreation (talk) 17:34, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Hey! I could not find anything specific about Klee and the URAA. I remember an analysis like that for Lovecraft stories, but not for this. Still, it's an issue. Works in Germany post-1922 are protected by copyright in the U.S. because their copyright was extended by the URAA. Turns out that, in the case of Switzerland, they only lengthened the copyright term to 70 years in 1992. That means Switzerland works had their copyright expire before the URAA date of 1996 and are in the public domain for this reason. So we only have to remove the late German works or justify them with a non-free use rationale for this article to comply with the image use policy. Hekerui (talk) 21:15, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Technically the images need Fair Use Rationales and need to be in the article proper and not in galleries...Modernist (talk) 23:36, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

The German works post-1922 are problematic per the discussion above and I removed them. Hekerui (talk) 12:02, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Friendship with Kandinsky
The second paragraph under Mature Years notes that "Kandinsky joined the staff and resumed his friendship with Klee," but there was no previous mention of this friendship. It would be nice to have this fleshed out earlier. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.166.173 (talk) 13:12, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 02:28, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Reference to Gunther Schuller piece is (accidentally?) split in two
Hi. My first contribution to Wikipedia! I have no intention of actually becoming an editor, so I'm just posting this for whoever would like to make use of it.

The section Musical Interpretations has the line "Other works are Abstraktes Terzett (Abstract Trio), Little Blue Devil, Zwitscher-Maschine (Twittering Machine), Arab Village, Ein unheimlicher Moment (An Eerie Moment) and Pastorale." These are sections 2 through 7, in the correct order, of the Gunther Schuller piece mentioned earlier in the same paragraph ("Gunther Schuller with Sieben Studien über Klee'sche Bilder (Seven Studies about Klee Pictures) in the years 1959/60"). The missing section 1 is Antike Harmonien (Antique Harmonies).

Also, there's no reason to give the name of the Schuller piece in German, since he was an American composer (as mentioned in the Wikipedia page on him) and composed the piece in the US, with an English title -- which, correctly, is Seven Studies on Themes of Paul Klee. The complete seven sections, in the correct order and with the correct English name, are given in many performances on YouTube (and elsewhere), for example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUmYkbCchWg. (I put this just for anyone who wants to check. Obviously this is not a source ... especially since it probably violates copyright.)

Dudley Brooks (talk) 16:54, 31 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks for spotting that, it's fixed now I think. Much of this article appears to be translated from the corresponding article in German Wikipedia, and these look like errors made in the process. Ewulp (talk) 00:34, 1 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Dudley Brooks (talk) 20:46, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090109074533/http://www.drklaas.de/German/Kunst/klee/klee_info.html to http://www.drklaas.de/German/Kunst/klee/klee_info.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090109074533/http://www.drklaas.de/German/Kunst/klee/klee_info.html to http://www.drklaas.de/German/Kunst/klee/klee_info.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060718020319/http://www.paulkleezentrum.ch/ww/en/pub/web_root/act/wissenschaftliches_archiv/biografie/schweizer_ohne_roten_pass.cfm to http://www.paulkleezentrum.ch/ww/en/pub/web_root/act/wissenschaftliches_archiv/biografie/schweizer_ohne_roten_pass.cfm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060628154736/http://www.zpk.org/ww/en/pub/web_root.cfm to http://www.zpk.org/ww/en/pub/web_root.cfm

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Swiss German
The de.wiki article Paul Klee says he was simply German and cites this article. Why is he described as "Swiss German" here? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:10, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Sources differ but it seems he's more often classed as Swiss (e.g., Oxford Art Online, ULAN, A World History of Art), though Britannica says he was Swiss-German. Ewulp (talk) 02:43, 19 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Hello, I'm Swiss and I've made some researches and a speech about Paul Klee. The swissinfo article (in German) is right. I confirm that he is German and not Swiss. His father was German. He asked for the Swiss citizenship, but he died before the agreement of the Berner and Swiss authoritied. It takes a long time and it's very complicated to become a Swiss citizen (too compllicated to explain it here, but if you ask, I can explain). In the chapter "Death" of this article, it is written: " He died in Muralto, Locarno, Switzerland, on 29 June 1940 without having obtained Swiss citizenship, despite his birth in that country." This is right and contradict the introduction. Please believe sources that are the closest to the person and in the person's language, because they are more reliable. That is why I wish to correct his nationality from Swiss German to German. --Faridagadri (talk) 14:31, 3 March 2019 (UTC)