Talk:Paul Robinson (footballer, born 1979)/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Cloudz679 (talk · contribs) 15:36, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I will review this article shortly. C 679 15:36, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Main events are generally told in the past simple tense, "he had been an England international..." gives undue weight to his retirement, but his international career should be highlighted. First line of the second paragraph of the lead is too long and unwieldy. Propose a full stop after 18 and restructure the rest into a new sentence. The lead mentions goals he scored but nothing about the honours he won. Per WP:LEAD, it should be a "summary of [the article's] most important aspects". The citation for the player's height is a dead link.
 * Lead

Sunday league football is only linked from the first two words and not all three, this is a little confusing. The next sentence is confusing, using before and after: "Robinson played in the York City youth system before coming through the youth ranks at Leeds United after joining following a trial,[4] making his debut against Chelsea in 1998, keeping a clean sheet." Why not use time order: "Robinson played in the York City youth system before trialling at Leeds United. He then came through the Leeds youth ranks, keeping a clean sheet on his debut against Chelsea in 1998." or similar. The rest of the paragraph is unreferenced and contains words to avoid, particularly "offloaded", "memorably", "reacted angrily", etc.
 * Leeds United

"In the 2003–04 season he scored his first professional goal via a header from a cross against Swindon Town in the closing moments of a League Cup game, forcing extra time." needs a reference. "Leeds were subsequently relegated that season, with Robinson having a slightly disappointing season." seems POV, also needs a reference. "Despite this somewhat dubious record Tottenham Hotspur's Director of Football David Pleat was not dissuaded in his pursuit of Robinson as he had played well throughout the season." What does this mean? I would ask for a reference but I am not sure of the intended meaning.

The whole of the first paragraph here is full of weasel words and POV, also being unreferenced. The second paragraph has the one reference but needs many more; the "of the three" comment seems to be an error since he was the fourth, so it should perhaps be "of the four". The last two sentences of the second paragraph seem to have no encyclopaedic value. The third paragraph is very short, lacks any time focus (when did these events happen) and should be integrated into a suitable paragragh. Also reference 9 redirects, and is not useful in its current state. The fourth paragraph here is once more poorly written, lacking references and seems to be inappropriate for a Good Article.
 * Tottenham Hotspur

Having reviewed 8 paragraphs, I am quite concerned about the article's failure against criteria 1 and 2. There are also a number of dead urls, which can be seen by using the "external links" link in the toolbox at the top right of this review. I will continue the review later. In the mean time I can be contacted on my talk page. C 679 16:17, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Mid-way summary

The above seems to be satisfactory now. I have had another read-through following the recent changes. The most common issue is that of rambling sentences, I have tried to highlight some of the longest ones below. Also quotes should be carefully written. Full details below:
 * Second part of review

"Premier League side Tottenham Hotspur" without "the"; "He was signed by then-Premier League side Blackburn Rovers in 2008, being voted the Blackburn Rovers Player of the Year in 2011 by the supporter's club." he stayed in the same league, their status now is irrelevant to the move. The quote at the end of the lead should conform to WP:MOSQUOTE, particularly due to the context of past time and person.
 * Lead

First para: ref needed for playing in the York City youth system. "He was Leeds' number 2 goalkeeper behind Nigel Martyn for several years, until Martyn asked Terry Venables for some time off during pre-season after going to the 2002 FIFA World Cup for England.[8]" I can't load the reference here, but I suspect it only supports the second part of the sentence.
 * Leeds United

Second para: "In the 2003–04 season he scored his first professional goal via a header from a cross against Swindon Town in the closing moments of a League Cup game, forcing extra time; with no goals scored during extra time, the game then went to a penalty shootout, with Robinson saving a penalty, and a Swindon player missing another one by hitting the post, with Leeds finishing as victors." - this could do with some extra punctuation, I am thinking of full stops in particular.

First para: "all 76 possible league matches", I think I grasp the intended meaning here but isn't it clearer to say all 76 of the club's league matches? "He took a free-kick from just outside of his own penalty area, 80 metres from the opposition goal and the ball bounced over the head of Watford goalkeeper Ben Foster, and into the goal;[19] becoming the third goalkeeper of four in Premier League history (excluding own goals) to score after Peter Schmeichel for Aston Villa in 2001,[20] Brad Friedel for Blackburn Rovers in 2004,[21] and Tim Howard for Everton in 2012.[22]" Again, this could do with some punctuation. After "into the goal" would be a good place for a full stop, then start the next sentence appropriately. "He was also the third goalkeeper…" He became the third goalkeeper.
 * Tottenham Hotspur

Second para: "The 2007–08 season proved to be less successful, as an error during international duty resulted in his form dipping,[27] and he was replaced by Radek Cerny for part of the season, initially after Robinson made an error against Reading F.C. in the FA Cup,[28] and, having returned to the squad, another error in the Carling Cup final,[29] although Tottenham were able to beat Chelsea 2–1, with Robinson collecting the first major trophy of his career.[30]" Again, where is the punctuation?

Avoid starting the section with "he". What does the debut of Baxter have to do with Robinson? If you are keeping that in, you need to clarify "He" in the next sentence refers to Robinson. "a League Cup match against |Chelsea" typo. "resulting in Robinson yet again linked with a move" in Robinson being yet again… "Robinson kept 8 clean sheets in the 36 league matches he played in,[43] with Robinson conceding the 500th league goal of his career towards the end of the season, becoming the 5th goalkeeper in Premier League history to do so.[44]" more missing full stops here. Please add. "the 17th of September" 17 September. At the end of the section (final para) there is a lot of material which is not directly relevant, for example the new captain being replaced - how is this connected to Robinson? Where is the reference for Murphy taking the captain's role? How are the details of Kean's injury relevant here? Again when discussing other players, be careful starting the next sentence with "he" as it is ambiguous.
 * Blackburn Rovers

"which was when Robinson was brought on" - at which point Robinson…. "He won that more caps year, all in friendlies, and on all occasions he was brought on at half time.[5]" Doesn't make sense. Please check. "and he made no appearances in the tournament." use "although" instead of "and", as it contrasts with the earlier clause. "was an ever present" - ever-present is an adjective, shouldn't be preceded by "an". "After the opening World Cup game against Paraguay, when his counterpart Justo Villar was injured 7 minutes into the match, ending his tournament early, Robinson sent Villar his gloves as a gesture of goodwill after England won 1–0.[71]" Again too unwieldy. Try to rephrase. "Following England's progression from the group (with the final group match against Sweden finishing 2–2)[73] he kept clean sheets against both Ecuador in the round of 16 (where he also picked up his first international yellow card),[74] and Portugal in the quarter-finals, with the latter nation winning 3–1 in a penalty shoot-out to end England's campaign.[75]" Too long, confusing and needs further punctuation. "an own goal that put Croatia 2–0 up,[76] with Robinson describing the incident as "a freak goal" following the match.[77] It was the first goal he had conceded in six international appearances" If it was Croatia's second goal, how was it the first goal he had conceded? "However, after a 2–1 defeat against Russia – the fourth of the qualifiers since his mistake against Germany – in which Robinson had palmed a shot into the path of Russian forward Roman Pavlyuchenko's path, resulting in the striker scoring Russia's winning goal in a 2–1 victory, England manager Steve McClaren dropped Robinson for the final qualifying match against Croatia in November, replacing him with Scott Carson.[27]" This sentence is too long to make sense of. Please re-word and introduce full stops as required. "England failed to qualify for the EURO 2008 finals, as they lost 3–2 in their final match against Croatia, with Carson making an error from a Niko Kranjcar shot, and as a result, McLaren was sacked.[81]" Another rambling sentence, in 5 pieces. Make it more concise. "sub's bench" is grammatically incorrect. "Robinson was recalled to the England squad in 2009 for the World Cup qualification matches against Kazakhstan and Andorra, as David James, then the England number one, had a shoulder injury, and regular back-up goalkeeper Ben Foster was also out with an injured thumb.[83]" Another long sentence. How about "as regular goalkeeper David James and back-up Ben Foster were unavailable due to injury" or similar. Lots of mentions of "sub". Is this defined anywhere, that would be helpful. Is being an unused sub significant to his career? Allardyce's and Banks' quotes should be MOS compliant. See the link earlier how to do this. "On 8 August 2010, Robinson retired from international football, with his last selection for England being a friendly match against Hungary, on 11 August, which he withdrew from following his announcement.[88]" Awkward. Reword. "Prior to his international retirement, Robinson had won…" How about "In his international career, Robinson won…" instead. Since you're defining competitive matches here, I'd suggest you can remove the equivalent from the lead.
 * International career

That covers most of the criteria, with the exception of referencing, which I will look at separately after the above is implemented. C 679 11:48, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I've gone through and changed pretty much everything above - let me know if I've messed up anywhere. :) Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 12:31, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

The quotes are still a problem. In the lead, I think it's best to omit it completely. Of course you have the full quote later anyway. Later on the quote "[Fabio Capello] has made …" The Banks quote [Robinson] instead of He [Robinson].
 * Last prose check

Appearing on the bench before making his international debut isn't appropriate for the lead, take it out.

The following from my earlier review has not been implemented:
 * "He was also the third goalkeeper…" He became the third goalkeeper.
 * "the 17th of September" 17 September.

The following sentences are still too long and need to be broken into smaller sentences:
 * The goal levelled the scores and forced extra time; with no further goals scored during extra time, the game then went to a penalty shootout, where Robinson saved a penalty, and a Swindon player missed another one by hitting the post, resulting in Leeds finishing as victors.[13]
 * Although he briefly returned to the side, he made another error in the Carling Cup final,[31] although Tottenham were able to beat Chelsea 2–1, with Robinson collecting the first major trophy of his career.[32] - also avoid although, although
 * Despite this result, Blackburn reached as high as seventh in January, following a 2–0 victory over West Bromwich Albion,[42] resulting in Robinson being yet again linked with a move away from Blackburn, this time with Aston Villa, Liverpool and former club Tottenham all rumoured to be interested in signing him.[43] seventh what?
 * In sharp contrast to the two previous seasons, where Robinson had averaged 10 league clean sheets a season, he kept just three clean sheets in the league all season, having played 34 games,[53] whilst all three clean sheets came from games where Blackburn won 2–0.[48]

Finally a few other things I may have missed before.
 * "Robinson made a mistake that resulted in Germany scoring their first goal of the game, with England losing the match 2–1, this being England's first loss at the new Wembley Stadium." Awkward. Reword.
 * EURO 2008 - Euro 2008
 * "However, he made another mistake in a 2–1 defeat against Russia. Robinson palmed a shot into the path of Russian forward Roman Pavlyuchenko's path, resulting in the striker scoring Russia's winning goal." Add a reference.

The reference check will follow implementation of the above comments. C 679 07:40, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. :) Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 08:44, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

1a of the criteria has now been met. Per 1b, there should not be single-sentence paragraphs, which is the case in the "Personal life" section. Merge with the previous paragraph. Criteria 3, 4 and 5 are met. Is there another photo you can add to the article with the player on international duty? It would help the article, which currently only has the single infobox image.

Criteria 2, references. All external links are now working, specific comments follow:
 * Where the player's height is referenced, there is currently an archived version of the clubs own page - a primary source. The 11v11 reference [15] could be used here instead as it is live and independent.
 * Hull Boys Sunday Football League.[3] - reference calls it "Hull Boys Sunday League"
 * Terry Venables dropped Martyn after he requested a break from pre-season training after the 2002 FIFA World Cup.[10] - reference doesn't support this. Use reference 11 here instead.
 * During the 2003–04 season, he scored his first professional goal; - needs a reference
 * Is myfootballfacts.com [17] a reliable source?
 * He made his league debut for Tottenham in a 1–1 draw against Liverpool,[19] - not in the reference
 * the latter season was notable for Robinson scoring the second goal of his professional career, in a Premier League game against Watford at White Hart Lane on 17 March 2007. - needs a reference, use the one from the next sentence
 * He took a free-kick from just outside of his own penalty area, 80 metres from the opposition goal and the ball bounced over the head of Watford goalkeeper Ben Foster, and into the goal.[21] - nothing in the reference about 80 metres or Robinson's penalty area. It says it was a 95 yard goal from a free kick.
 * He became the third goalkeeper of four in Premier League history (excluding own goals) to score after Peter Schmeichel for Aston Villa in 2001,[22] Brad Friedel for Blackburn Rovers in 2004,[23] and Tim Howard for Everton in 2012.[24] The references suppport each keeper scoring but not that Robinson had become the third, so find a reference for that.
 * He was also the third goalkeeper in English professional football to score during the 2006–07 season, following goals from Gavin Ward for Tranmere Rovers,[25] and Mark Crossley for Sheffield Wednesday.[26] - same here, reference him being the third. Otherwise you can take the sentence out.
 * An error during international duty resulted in his form dipping,[29] doesn't support the sentence
 * Following the departures of Chris Samba and Ryan Nelsen from Ewood Park, Robinson became the temporary Blackburn captain.[54] - yes but the ref also says he was then made permanent captain
 * Between 1999 and 2002, Robinson made 13 appearances for the England under-21s.[62] - reference does not mention the years
 * On 22 August 2007, Robinson made a mistake that resulted in Germany scoring their first goal of the game. - needs reference, reuse the one from later
 * For the Kazakhstan game, he was selected as a substitute, with West Ham United keeper Robert Green starting the match.[84] He remained a substitute in both games, as well as for England's next two friendlies.[5] - not so much a referencing issue but the first sentence is redundant - delete it. C 679 13:58, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Done all the above, hopefully. As to "My Football Facts", it is sponsored by BetVictor, so it's not a common-or-garden "fan site"; it's not a perfect source, but hopefully it's reliable enough, at least for what it is used for. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 14:36, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

And finally for completeness, I forgot to mention before, the career statistics should have the international (senior team only) statistics below the club stats, as is the case in other footballer GAs. C 679 15:51, 9 June 2013 (UTC) Stats should be with a note explaining "Apps" and not include assists, years should be calendar years. You may find a reference such as this to be quite appropriate here. C 679 16:27, 9 June 2013 (UTC) Good stuff, all concerns have been addressed and the article now passes as a GA. Good work. C 679 17:01, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 16:11, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * That makes a lot more sense - I'd based it off another GA football article. That source isn't as good as the one I'd already used, but I've fixed the table now. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 16:56, 9 June 2013 (UTC)