Talk:Paul Tibbets/Archive 1

Image Alignment
the placement of the Awards and Decorations is skewed by the photo. can that be fixed? i'm sure it can. i just don't know how. Kingturtle 03:55 May 4, 2003 (UTC)

Did that help? -- Zoe


 * In my browser (Explorer 6.00), Awards and Decorations and its first bullet are pushed to the middle by the image. The remaining bullets are below the image, and aligned to the left. Kingturtle 04:15 May 4, 2003 (UTC)

Huh. I'm using 6.0.2, and it looks okay to me. -- Zoe

Images are tricky darn things to place at the best of times. We seem to have a variety of proto-policies floating around here and there, but nothing definitive. (Which is quite possibly a good thing, as we need to leave room for experiment and adjustment to suit particular entries.) My rule of thumb is, if in doubt, find an image that Adrian has placed, and cut & paste my code from that. Adrian has specialised in this area and become very good at it. Tannin 04:44 May 4, 2003 (UTC)


 * I think it looks really good there, fills up the whitespace. Hephaestos 04:45 May 4, 2003 (UTC)


 * Looks fine to me. I think one of the problems is that sometimes the asterisk bullet-points wiki format goes on to photos or tables where text would not. Minor glitch? Usually can be worked around. -- Infrogmation 05:35 May 4, 2003 (UTC)


 * Another trouble is that that particular image is poorly cropped, which makes the image look imbalanced, and weighted...heavy...with that tiny head on top and that large plane below. Because of the imbalance within the image, I think it will be difficult to find the right way to place it in the article. I realize why the choice was made to use the photo, but I'd like to see a close up of Tibbets. Kingturtle 05:40 May 4, 2003 (UTC)


 * I agree, KT. That's one of the reasons I placed it down near the bottom of the entry, because it doesn't look quite so odd down there. One of those fool-the-eye things. Speaking in general, though, it's good to have some images that are not your boring standard head & shoulders, look-the-camera-in-the-eye, passport-photo type of things. Variety is the spice of like. Tannin

No regrets
'This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Paul Tibbets article. This is NOT a *forum* for general discussion about the article's subject.' ~ Wiki

The statement in your article about no regret for the decesion to drop the atom bomb implies it was Tibbet's decision. Truman gave the order to drop the bomb and sealed the fate of the Japanies civilians and of Tibbets...I think Tibbets meant hell yes I would do it again if my country called. Can we take out that statement? Mike Franke, baby boomer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Franke (talk • contribs) 09:53, October 24, 2005

Intro
Why is half the intro taken up with plugs for documentaries that he appeared in? That seems like about the least significant aspect of his life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.125.2.155 (talk) 15:51, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Mass murderer characterization
I have enjoyed the use of wikipedia for some time now. I am grateful for the information that is made available to the public. I read the wikipedia biography of Gen Tibbets. I am disappointed in the statement that he is a mass murderer. [EDIT: I deleted the latter half of what *was* a polemic.] LM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.160.108.237 (talk • contribs)
 * That vandalism was added only moments ago. I have reverted. -N 23:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

we should also remove "This shows up his ignorance of the situation, alternative solutions, the suffering that was caused and the obvious fact that America was responsible for starting the war in the first place."

for accuracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snackdrag (talk • contribs) 16:01, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

it should be acknowledged that if you go to any bookstore in the US you will have a hard time knowing about the number of people killed if the bombing (personal experience looking specifically at that in Barnes, all the Nobels et al. so it's no convincing proof, "hell yeah"). Gen Tibbets was just one guy, wikipedia has the power to say how much, how harmful it was. for accuracy.

Deleted line that stated "He expressed no remorse over his ruthless murder of hundreds of thousands". Otcconan (talk) 06:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

"Mass murderer characterization", i think it should be mentioned, that he in fact with Frederick C. Bock is the worst mass murderers ever lived. Each killing tens of thousands, in seconds, and the after effects. 91.154.204.152 (talk) 02:58, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If this is added, it will get reverted. This is nothing more the POV pushing as is mentioned above. Please do not add it to this article. Davidpdx (talk) 11:45, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Mass murderer. Fact. What is mentioned in the article? Revan ltrl (talk) 18:06, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

I mean, wikipedia has a lot of fun facts in countless articles; why not add some to this one? Revan ltrl (talk) 18:12, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

He is considered a war criminal by the government of japan, and his actions resulted in 90,000 deaths. These are factual, please stop deleting them from the article apologists. You are causing edit-warring by over-sanitising the article and removing cited facts. 87.194.26.132 (talk) 14:28, 1 April 2012 (UTC)


 * These are the same Japanese Authorities that still act as if they never had British POWs in Burma, though they make (virtually) no denials about their military activities in Burma. War Crimes hmm....? No one can argue against the experts. --83.108.30.25 (talk) 00:54, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

War Criminal categorization
The revert warring needs to be stopped. ++Lar: t/c 21:46, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Please restrict any comments here to those dedicated to improving the article. All others will be removed. Thank you. --John 22:35, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Copying from BBC
BBC: "Gen Tibbets said it was not meant as an insult but the US government formally apologised."

Wikipedia: "Tibbets said it was not meant as an insult, but the U.S. government formally apologized when Japan complained" Bhudson 01:53, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Semiprotected
I have semiprotected this article for a short while to see if the persistent POV pushing edits will diminish. ++Lar: t/c 02:29, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

NPOV Edits are an improvement
Thanks to whomever got the ball rolling on removing/redoing the opening line, "Gen. Tibbets is a war criminal..." and beyond...Individuals are welcome to their opinions and claims, but they have no place in an encyclopedia... Paul W. Tibbets was never tried (or accused) of war crimes, or crimes against humanity, and ...guessing the outcome of a trial that never happened,...violates Wiki's "No original research" policy. The political climate and people's opinions 60 years later [cannot] be considered impartial sources. I applaud those who are able to make an effort towards NPOV and let everyone make up their own mind..--Legomancer 03:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Who edited my comments? The revision reads a little cleaner for the intended purpose of NPOV content on the page. Next time at least put a note and sign/date it. I thought the additional info was relevant and supportable, but would have been open to discussion regarding it.--Legomancer 13:39, 11 November 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Legomancer (talk • contribs)

Cremation
The current text in the wikipedia entry states that Tibbet wanted to be cremated and have his ashes spread over the english channel. I was listening to NPR and heard an old interview with Tibbet in which he mentioned that he wanted to be cremated and have his ashes spread over the atlantic ocean since his most peaceful moments in his life were when he was flying over the atlantic ocean. Since there is no source for the entry over the cremation, i suppose this change should be made.

Emortio 10:26, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

The Obituary from his hometown newspaper (The Quincy Herald Whig) Does not state that he was cremated but instead states quoting Gerry Newhouse:
 * "Tibbets had requested no funeral and no headstone, fearing it would provide his detractors with a place to protest"

The Obituary article is located at http://www.whig.com/290193832161629.php and the Quincy Herald Whig should be listed as the reference cited. The Hearld Whig also Sites the AP (Associated Press) as hte source of some of it's material. I hope this reference is useful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kheldarstl (talk • contribs) 14:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Formatting In Safari
I thought I'd screwed something up when I edited the statement regarding the Smithsonian's exhibit, but after checking in Firefox, I believe it's a compatibility problem with Safari. That paragraph and the one before it appear double-spaced. I believe it may actually have something to do with the edit links for the photographs to their right. They appear superimposed on the text several paragraphs above. I don't know Wikipedia's formatting enough to understand what is causing it, so I thought I would try to bring this to everyone's attention. Volfied 17:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Heading
Re: Gordafarid's edits. Details belong in the article. Headings should contain brief summaries. Rklawton 18:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Pilgrimage?
Please don't be too positive here. Pilgrims normally go there to worship someone. Nope. The BBC gets the point perfectly: Gen Tibbets had asked for no funeral nor headstone as he feared opponents of the bombing may use it as a place of protest. Yep. Exactly. I'd vote for changing the silly "pilgrimage" term into "protest", since it's about opponents, not sympathizers. -andy 77.7.6.222 (talk) 13:46, 8 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with you 100%. As the grandson of one of the other crew members, this was an issue. My grandfather, who passed away this year, also made the choice to be cremated and have his ashes spread at an undisclosed location. While I don't even know for sure where they were spread (I have an idea), I do know this was because of possible protests.

Ashes
Anyone know why he wanted his ashes scattered in the English Channel? Did he have a connection with France or England or the Channel in particular? Was it a faraway place from the US? Or just a random choice? 86.150.97.36 (talk) 15:20, 11 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I believe General Tibbets flew some missions in Europe. This only speculation, but my guess would be it was a place he loved. You could look up the page on him and ask his grandson. Davidpdx (talk) 13:12, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I guess it is because he flew a number of bombing raids over Germany from English airfields and on the return journey once you were over the English Channel you knew you were safe, no more enemy guns to shoot you down and if you ran out of fuel or suffered mechanical failure you came down amongst friends. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.148.132.38 (talk) 10:59, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

My relative!
This guy is one of my distant relatives! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Curvebill (talk • contribs) 19:35, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I believe that Col Tibbets once said that " war can never be justified - war is immoral". Could someone validate this statement and include it in the article? Eric —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.108.203.22 (talk) 09:25, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Hey you fucking pussies, I shall verbally attack whomever I wish! This is especially true when the fucking asshole writes an opinion he or she passes off as fact. The only fact is that the author of the article is a shithead! Go ahead and ban me, jerkoff, since you're too much of a cunt to accept harsh words. If necessary, I can post using many different IPs.


 * And we can ban those IPs accordingly. Have a nice day. --  IShadowed  ✰  01:00, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Reference for Van Dyke Anecdote
Hey folks, is there any better reference for the Van Dyke anecdote? I'm writing a piece, and I'd love to include the bit about Tibbets' wife. It requires and *online* citation, so I can't use the book in physical form. However, Google Books has no preview of the book, and it appears to be long out of print in any case. If anyone can point me in the right direction, I'd really appreciate it! Trappleton (talk) 03:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

This article is pathetic
This is precisely what happens when fanboys latch on to a topic. I was hoping to read something more critical than a digital stroke job for the man who was personally responsible for the largest single mass murder ever committed. This is literally one of the worst articles that I have ever read on Wikipedia. Jgmoneill (talk) 17:06, 6 August 2013 (UTC)


 * If you have a specific criticism which changes the consensus that Tibbets was the commander of an aircraft that carried out a mission during the Second World War by all means tell us what it is, giving your reliable source. Otherwise your vague opinions are of little use to the encyclopedia. Britmax (talk) 17:18, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

If you are looking for a politically correct revisionist article look elsewhere. Tibbets did nothing that other pilots, including Japanese, didn't. It was the bomb that was different. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.120.213.99 (talk) 19:14, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

"named for his mother" in lead paragraph
It is unnecessary to state in the lead paragraph that the aircraft was named for Tibbets' mother. This fact is mentioned in the body of this article and also in the article about the aircraft. Having it in the lead is too much detail for the lead. See Lead. --rogerd (talk) 16:03, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The lead summarises the article. Everything in the lead is mentioned in the article. The important point here is that although Tibbets was the group commander, Enola Gay, he was the pilot of the Enola Gay, and named the aircraft. The practice of naming aircraft is unusually American. It is the other fact that most people know about Tibbets, and has attracted much curiosity:

"Several survivors of Hiroshima were present on 17 December [2003, when the Enola Gay exhibit opened at the Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center], and Minoru Nishino wondered "why the pilot would put his mother's name on such a plane?" "In Japan," he said, "mothers and sweethearts represent life and love, not war and death.""


 * Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:18, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, but not everything in the article should be in the lead. It should be brief summary.  There are many aircraft that are named for "mothers and sweethearts".   Chuck Yeager named his WWII fighters and later, his aircraft that broke the sound barrier "Glamorous Glennis" after his girlfriend and later wife.  It is not mentioned until later in the article.  Same goes for Memphis Belle, named for Robert K. Morgan's girlfriend.  Morgan also named a later famous aircraft after his third wife Dauntless Dotty.  My point is that naming an aircraft for a woman in the pilot's life was not unusual, and if the reader wants to know who the aircraft is named for, all they have to do is scroll down a bit or click on the article about the aircraft.   The lead paragraph should be kept concise and tight.  --rogerd (talk) 20:57, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * It seems to be an American custom, and the Enola Gay is a better-known aircraft. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:49, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Better known than Memphis Belle or Glamorous Glennis? Maybe, but not by much.  One aircraft is the best known B-17 and had two films,  Memphis Belle: A Story of a Flying Fortress and Memphis Belle made about it, and the other is the first plane to break the sound barrier and had a major role in the film The Right Stuff.  That, however is beside my point is that this is not one of the key facts of the article that deserves mention in the lead.  --rogerd (talk) 16:04, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, definitely better known than Memphis Belle or Glamorous Glennis according to Google. The latter doesn't seem to be very well known at all. Chuck Yeager is better known than Paul Tibbets, but Enola Gay is better known than either of them. In fact, it is even more famous than the Spirit of St. Louis, which surprised me. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:36, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree, it's the sort of thing I'd expect to see in the lead here. I might add that it was in the lead when the article was at FAC, so the consensus of reviewers seemed to be fine with it. Now FAs are not set in stone, but you'd really need to establish a new consensus that the phrase shouldn't be there. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:42, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Title for Eisenhower
When Tibbets flew Ike, he was not the "Supreme Allied Commander" at the tie. This should be changed to reflect Ike's correct title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.183.235.146 (talk) 03:56, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Which was? Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:10, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

FYI: Date format
There is a discussion here on whether this article should use DMY date format, as per WP:DATETIES: "articles on the modern US military use DM/DMY, in accordance with military usage", or MDY format, as per the same section: "Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country should generally use the date format most commonly used in that nation. For the United States, this is MD/MDY."

While I find it incongruous that a BRD discussion on edits to this particular article should be taking place elsewhere, the discussion purports to be determining a Wikipedia wide policy to be enshrined in the Manual of Style. A change which has not yet occurred.

Could I ask any editor wishing to comment on date format within this article to join the discussion linked to above? This will ensure that we don't have two differing discussions and possibly two different concensuses. In effect, this article will be the test case for the latest iteration of this long-standing Manual of Style discussion on date formats. --Pete (talk) 06:15, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

grammer
From the lede:
 * [Tibbets] ... the pilot of the Enola Gay – named for his mother – the first aircraft to drop an atomic bomb in the history of warfare.

I think this has wrong grammar. To explain, I'll remove the interjected text which should be non-changing grammar anyway:
 * [Tibbets] ... the pilot of the Enola Gay the first aircraft to drop an atomic bomb in the history of warfare.

Wouldn't one expect a comma after Gay? -DePiep (talk) 23:38, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the endash takes care of it. Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:47, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * How so? They're isolated (like brackets), and can be removed without changing the sentence structure. -DePiep (talk) 23:54, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, compared to this major world event/outrage, the name of the pilot’s mother, the naming of the B29 or the standard of grammar are as trivial asides. Should not such low-value information be moved and down-rated? What about the following as a possible opening sentence?

"On the 6th August 1945, and with World War Two all but over, the Enola Gay became the first and only aircraft in history to drop an atomic Weapon (of Mass Destruction).
 * I'll have to ping about the grammar, but that sentence is factually incorrect; another aircraft dropped an atomic bomb just three days later. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:22, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
 * If there were a comma, where would it go? - Dank (push to talk) 21:39, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The argument is that they can abut the endash. My understanding is the the whole point of using the endash is to avoid this:
 * [Tibbets] ... the pilot of the Enola Gay – named for his mother –, the first aircraft to drop an atomic bomb in the history of warfare.
 * Maybe we are trying to pack too many ideas into one sentence? Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:03, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The emphasis on the aircraft being the first, rather than the bomb, seems odd too. I suggest "the aircraft which dropped the first atomic bomb used in warfare." Unpacking the the naming as well could give us "... the pilot of the Enola Gay, the aircraft which dropped the first atomic bomb used in warfare. The aircraft was named after his mother." NebY (talk) 09:12, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

World's First Nuclear Weapon of Mass Destruction
Suggest changing: "the first aircraft to drop an atomic bomb in the history of warfare"

To read: "the first (and only) aircraft to drop an atomic Weapon of Mass Destruction"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.44.132.254 (talk) 16:34, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

...Uhhh....no....Bockscar dropped on Nagasaki 3 days later, remember? Enola Gay was the first...Bockscar was the most recent (and hopefully last) to drop The Bomb in anger. There was at least one other airdrop during the post-war testing phase, but the name of the plane escapes me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:35A0:2AB0:44E4:5937:5946:A423 (talk) 01:44, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Parade for crew members
In the Aftermath section, the article says "There were, however, no parades or testimonial dinners for him or any of the other Enola Gay crewmen." This picture seems to indicate that the crew was involved in a parade: http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1392518/enola-gay-crew.jpg. It comes from http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/hiroshima-atomic-bomb-anniversary-photos-devastated-city-1459865. The caption says "12 April 1946: Crew members of the Enola Gay proudly parade through New York on a Jeep in the first Army Day Parade since the end of the war" and Paul Tibbets is seated at the back. However, I can't find any other mention of this parade online. The closest was a Victory Day Parade in New York on 12 January 1946. If the crew were involved in a parade (even if it was not specifically "for" Paul Tibbets), then perhaps the line should be amended. Paulwikied (talk) 08:08, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
 * That's Tibbets alright. I will amend the article. Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:04, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

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29 August 1944 memo
Does anyone have a copy of the memo from Captain Derry to General Groves, dated 29 August 1944, Subject: "Army Air Forces' Program for Operations?" Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:50, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

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