Talk:Paul Whiteman

flaws
"Whiteman was also one of the greatest of all talent scouts. For over 30 years, he sought out and encouraged musicians, vocalists, composers, arrangers and entertainers who looked promising. It is worth repeating that Whiteman not only premiered George Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue" in 1924, but commissioned him to write it, much to Gershwin's surprise at the time."

why is it worth repeating that? the wiki, as it is, is very sycophantic, and the problem is that most of the claims are factually week. EVERY band-leader of the era was a talent scout, including bandleaders of later eras, every bandleader i know did at least as much as whiteman did in terms of looking for the best players and hiring them. (which is the logical obvious thing for a bandleader to do.)

there's also a kind of contradiction here that belies one of the problems with the wiki: it's stated that whiteman wasn't a big proponent of improvisation (?), preferring scoring(?), yet the wiki also states that whiteman made achievements in the domain of reducing the "repetition" of musical forms at the time. obviously, improvisation is one of the hallmarks of contemporary jazz during whiteman's time, and improvisation is one of the prime methods of variety in any musical performance. furthermore, the developments in key/rhythm(?)/etc that whiteman was supposedly responsible for were already present in contemporary music.

i'm not saying the guy didn't advance music as much as the next guy (maybe he did), but the statements in the wiki are very fluffy and need some work.

Last thing: I don't want to offend anyone, but honestly, i really have the feeling that whiteman was the "king of jazz" about as much as jack johnson's "great white hope" parade of challengers were the kings of boxing.


 * To which I might add: an all-white jazz band is a travesty. 86.134.217.24 23:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Whiteman was the king of something for 15 years (1920-1935), but it is not our job to evaluate him, or the hype of the times. Paul Robeson sang lead on Ol Man River 1928, unheard of at that time, when everybody was a racist. Tillywilly17 (talk) 21:31, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

article needs referencing - that might help solve disagreements on discussion page
Per WP:V and WP:CITE, this article needs to have its source material referenced. Thanks. Mattisse(talk) 18:19, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Possible online sources for this article

 * Paul Whiteman PBS article, probably best source
 * Paul Whiteman BBC Radio website
 * Paul Whiteman CMT website
 * ''Paul Whiteman "The King of Jazz" (1890-1967)
 * Paul Whiteman Ronbo76 07:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:PaulWhitemanColumbiaLabel.jpg
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— Save_Us _ 229  02:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Conflict within a paragraph about the camera work of "king of Jazz"
Postive camera comment: In 1930 "Paul Whiteman and his Orchestra" starred in the first feature-length movie musical filmed entirely in Technicolor, King of Jazz. The film was technically ahead of its time, with many dazzling camera effects

Negative camera comment: Unfortunately, by the time King of Jazz was released to theaters, audiences had seen too many "all-singing, all-dancing" musicals,and much of the moviegoing public stayed away. (It also didn't help that the film was shot as a revue with no story and not particularly imaginative camerawork.)

Was the camera work "dazzling" or not "particulary imaginative".

I think for its time the camera work was interesting. However, the real appeals of the movie now are the music, the fact that it early technicolor, and it is a historical document. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmalterman (talk • contribs) 19:52, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Unsourced Material
Article has been tagged for needing sourcing long-term. Please feel free to re-add this material with appropriate references. Thank you. Doniago (talk) 20:41, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Court case
Whiteman was a party to an important early court case involving the rights of performers (as opposed to composers) in public performance with respect to recordings. More information can be found in Broadcasting for, IIRC, 1939. 121a0012 (talk) 02:38, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110415042140/https://www.allaboutjazz.com/jazz1922.htm to http://www.allaboutjazz.com/jazz1922.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160820140930/http://familia.evemor.com/research/collection-90100/catalog-of-copyright-entries-series-1951?s=264672991&itemId=66654165&action=showRecord&indId=individual-264672991-1500001 to http://familia.evemor.com/research/collection-90100/catalog-of-copyright-entries-series-1951?s=264672991&itemId=66654165&action=showRecord&indId=individual-264672991-1500001
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150707235113/http://www.grammy.org/recording-academy/awards/hall-of-fame to http://www.grammy.org/recording-academy/awards/hall-of-fame

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Religion and ancestry
Whiteman was probably Protestant and of Scottish, Irish, English, and Dutch ancestry, not Jewish, as the source for it has references and is approved of by Don Rayno, author the exhaustive and definitive 1600-page, 2-vol. bio, and Whiteman and Dallison are English names, so I made the appropriate changes. Capt. Ciel (talk) 17:19, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Not Jewish. The same interview where Whiteman is noted as Jewish also names Harry James as Jewish. The interviewee's credibility is highly questionable on this point. Both jazz greats were Christian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.1.66.253 (talk) 22:29, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Possible anachronisms
The article refers to him joining the Denver Symphony in 1907, but the article for that group states it was formed in 1934. Also, there are some references to music charts beginning in 1926, but it seems Billboard's earliest charts were a decade later, and I can't find anything before that. Not doubting the article's accuracy, but finding an explanation for these seeming discrepancies would be useful (something more specific than a vague reference to music charts, for example). MisfitToys (talk) 02:35, 14 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree, this article needs overhaul. Also, 'Ol Man River 1928, Grammy Hall of Fame, but he released 2 versions that year, Bing Crosby vocal Jan, and Paul Robeson, March. Billboard's first official chart was July 1940, though there was a Juke Box chart from 1936 forward, but it didn't have numbers. Joel Whitburn did some great research, but all his chart numbers before 1940 were made up with proprietary formulas in the 1980s. At one point, he used sheet music sales. Most of the records listed as hits were successful, we just have to remove the chart numbers, or qualify them as Joel Whitburn's. Tillywilly17 (talk) 21:17, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

replaced Major recordings section
I cheated by using data I had already posted Year in music pages. I noticed MANY bad links, fixed many. There are several unreferenced statements I have to fix, and other mistakes. This article is old with many outdated internal links. Editors with your fancy scripts, pitch-in at will :-) Tillywilly17 (talk) 23:15, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

added more information to the Motorsports section, renamed it from "Motor sports" and stepped into a rabbit-hole
Rabbit-hole:

I found this one strange detail while looking around about this guy, Ed Otto - there's lots of information on the web (and a biography, and it's mentioned in his obituary) about his position as "co-founder" of NASCAR, but he isn't mentioned on either the Wikipedia page for NASCAR, or the page for its founder, Bill France Sr., and I don't see any results for his name on any NASCAR-owned websites. Apparently Whiteman was close to Bill, and apparently Otto had a 40% share in NASCAR's ownership at one point. I'm not sure if they're trying to erase him but it seemed odd. It seems Whiteman covered Otto's ass in 1954 so Otto's Jaguar could race - leading to the only time a European car has ever won a NASCAR event. Maybe they're still salty.

Also odd: I found some news articles (1, 2) about a cancelled 1956 concert, "Rock 'n' Roll Under the Stars," organised by Whiteman and at which Bill Haley & His Comets were due to play. Both articles mention an Ed Otto - the first as a sponsor, the second one as a concert promotor, but the second also notes that his name was Ed Otto Jr. The racing Ed lived from 1903/4 to 1996, and his son Ed Jr. from 1930 to 2019. So, chronologically, it could be that same Ed Jr., maybe Whiteman was helping the Ottos out, maybe the other way around, maybe some third thing. Cool coincidence anyway.

Ed Jr. wrote his dad's biography.

One cookie (talk) 15:13, 25 August 2023 (UTC)


 * More tenuous connections, if anyone wants to go digging:
 * - 1948, NASCAR founded, tires for events are sourced solely from Firestone. Whiteman is close to Bill France and Ed Otto by this time.
 * - 1949, Paul Whiteman's Goodyear Revue airs nationally on ABC, title sponsor is the Goodyear Tire & Rubber Company. Runs until 1952.
 * - 1954, cars owned and "owned" by Whiteman first entered in NASCAR Grand National races.
 * - Also 1954, NASCAR events begin to feature cars running Goodyear tires. In the 70s, Firestone drop out and Goodyear become sole tire provider to NASCAR for ages.
 * See the page Tire wars and its citations for more info. Citation 4 there mentions that in 1954, NASCAR "gets noticed" by Goodyear. Searches don't show me any articles correlating Goodyear and NASCAR via Whiteman, but I smell funny business. Whomst motivated whomst??!4q One cookie (talk) 10:31, 26 August 2023 (UTC)