Talk:Pavle Đurišić/Archive 1

Forgotten 500?
Did Djurisic really take part in Operation Halyard? -- MidnightSoldier (talk) 05:35, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

- I have renamed the following text from: in March 1945 and attacked the Ustaša fascists in Lijevče polje near Banja Luka to: in March 1945 and attacked the Croatian Armed Forces in Lijevče polje near Banja Luka

becouse in that time the ustasa and homeguard (domobran) forces where united in one army called HOS (Hrvatske Oruzane Snage), I allso delited fascist becouse fascist party was not allowed in Croatia during ww2. Djurusic himself was a a supporter of Italian fascism, and was their allie. General Canic (talk) 17:11, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Award of Iron Cross 2nd Class to Pavle Djurisic
The file apparently showing the award of the Iron Cross 2nd Class shows a certificate in gothic script. According to www.wehrmacht-awards.com/iron_cross/2nd_1st_class/2_1_documents_cases/documents.htm the script of the certificates was changed to Latin in 1943. There are examples of both on the cited page. Given that the file on the page shows a certificate in gothic script for an award allegedly made in November 1944, this casts doubt on whether the certificate shown in this file is legitimate. Can anyone tell me what the source of this file is? Peacemaker67 (talk) 21:58, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Allegiance
User:FkpCascais has indicated that the usage of defacto and nominally is inaccurate when describing Djurisic's allegiance in the infobox. I'm not sure it is necessary to have allegiance listed, but if it is to be retained, it should be based on the sources. If the allegiance is to be to the government he serves, given he owed his first allegiance to DM until the time of his capture, escape to Serbia in mid-late 1943, and DM was still the Chief of Staff of the Yugoslav Army in the Homeland at that point, it is clear that his formal allegiance was to the Kingdom of Yugoslavia up to that date, despite his also owing a certain allegiance to the Italians with whom he was collaborating (who of course were an enemy of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia). However, when he returned to Serbia and was arrested by the Nedic regime then handed over to the Germans, he was then released and became first an assistant commander of the Serbian Volunteer Corps, then in the spring of 1944, the commander of the Montenegrin Volunteer Corps. The problem for Djurisic's allegiance at this point, however, is that whilst formally to Yugoslavia via DM (Tomasevich 1975, p351), he also owed some allegiance to the Germans and Nedic (Tomasevich 2001, p222) who released, promoted and supported him. Further complicating his situation was that a few months later, the Supreme Command of the Yugoslav Army in the Homeland was dissolved by the King and Tito was made head of the resistance. At this point, by not joining the Partisans, Djurisic was in fact not demonstrating allegiance to Yugoslavia via Tito, but to his other allegiances to the government of Germany through Nedic, and this remained the case until his death. Given this, it seems that his allegiance should be described as 1941 (Kingdom of Yugoslavia), 1942-1944 (Kingdom of Yugoslavia and the Axis) and 1944-1945 (Germany and Nedic's Serbia). Peacemaker67 (talk) 09:47, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I do not agree with this. As Tomasevich points out (2001, 148) "The Germans were not entirely pleased with the arrangement, however, since Djurisic, while owing allegiance to the Germans who maintained him, also owed allegiance to Nedic and Mihailovic." The best and most accurate approach would be Kingdom of Yugoslavia (1941-1945), Fascist Italy (1942-1943), Nazi Germany and Nedic's Serbia (1943-1945). Your suggestion implies he defected to the axis in 1944 and was loyal solely to them until the end of the war. It is clear he held his allegiance throughout the war to Mihailovic (KoY) and collaborated while doing so. -- ◅PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 14:25, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I am not so sure that he kept his allegiance to Kingdom of Yugoslavia once he became sub-liutenant of Nedic governament in mid 1944, but I wan´t change any edit without confirming this first with sources. Anyway, I beleave this kind of approach in allegiance section instead of the nominally/de facto seems more precise and better. FkpCascais (talk) 18:21, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure the most accurate approach is that he had allegiance to the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1945. DM did not represent the Yugoslav Government in Exile (the relevant government) from August 1944 onwards, so I can't see how allegiance to DM translates to allegiance to the KoY from then on. I am happy with your edit except for KoY, which I think should be 1941-1944. If there is no restriction on owing allegiance to a government, perhaps instead he could be listed as having allegiance to DM in 1944-1945 (as well as Nedic and Germany) rather than to KoY? I also wanted to address the issue of the removal of my edit of the Iron Cross in the infobox (reference to Germany). Given his award is quite remarkable for a 'resistance fighter', I would have thought it was worthwhile noting that it is the German Iron Cross rather than some obscure Serbian or Montengrin award. Your thoughts on that? Peacemaker67 (talk) 02:31, 7 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Good point. What about removing KoY all together and replacing it with "Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland (1941-1945)". This avoids us having to deal with the government support aspect of it and avoids us having to put his allegiance to one man. In regards to the Iron Cross case, most military biography articles don't show which nation the military awards belong to, but given that this isn't like most situations perhaps we should distinguish that its from the Germans. -- ◅PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 09:46, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I like that approach. No flag for them? I'll fix the Iron Cross. Peacemaker67 (talk) 10:13, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Unless I am missing something, I fail to see any rank he held within Italian or German Army. Joint actions are not the same as "allegiance". FkpCascais (talk) 20:40, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * He doesn't have to have a rank in the Italian or German army. He and various other Chetniks were loyal to them through their collaboration agreements. The sources are clear on this. -- ◅PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 21:00, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Fkp, but you are missing something. You haven't read the source I quoted above. That is what is required, not a rank in their Army. Peacemaker67 (talk) 10:11, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * In my view, yees it is. You are founding your arguments using the reasoning that he had allegiance to Germans trough Nedic. What about Italy? They had joint actions, that is not the same... I object this edit. POV and unsourced. FkpCascais (talk) 15:01, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. Read Tomasevich 2001 p222, that is the source for the data about his allegiance. As PRODUCER points out, Tomasevich 1975 p349-351 is also relevant. That is all that is required under WP policy, a reliable published source. You can object as much as you like. Peacemaker67 (talk) 21:11, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not being funny, but the Iron Cross is also a bit of an indicator of one of his allegiances. Peacemaker67 (talk) 13:45, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Expansion of article
I have started expanding this article. Today I expanded Djurisic's early activities from the invasion. I'll start on the Battle of Neretva next. Peacemaker67 (talk) 12:35, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice additions, but I'm not sure if we should be using a review of a book (Pavlowitch 2005) to be backing up claims. I also noted the removal of Lerner and Mulaj. -- ◅PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 12:42, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm just erring on the side of NPOV with taking out Lerner and Mulaj, but I'm also comfortable with removing Pavlowitch 2005). Peacemaker67 (talk) 21:14, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I've removed McDonald. He does not take sides and simply points out what Tim Judah has said, which is that the authenticity is disputed. (In Judah's footnote he shows that Tomasevich accepts it whereas Malcolm disputes it.) -- ◅PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 23:15, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Right, sorry about the cut and paste, my edit was so big I wasn't quite sure how to amalgamate what you had done with my expansions. I'll go back and put yours back in. Peacemaker67 (talk) 03:34, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit Warring
Hi guys,

There seem to be an edit warring in progress here. Please follow the 3-revert rule which I hope you understand by now and settle the dispute amicably here. Thanks. &#9733; Oliverlyc &#9733; ✈✈✈  Pop me a message!  14:02, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Pakistani Institute
Kebeta, I have reverted your good-faith additions. HuHu22's claim that Djurisic's Iron Cross award is "communist propaganda" and that the source provided (Cohen) to back that claim is a "communist source" is absolute unfounded nonsense. The additional Pakistani Islamic Research Institute reference is not reliable and more than likely cites Cohen in their text. -- ◅PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 12:15, 14 July 2012 (UTC)