Talk:Pavlos Kountouriotis

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BetacommandBot (talk) 22:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008
Article reassessed and graded as start class. --dashiellx (talk) 18:05, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Disruptive Reverts by Future Perfect
I can't understand why you changed the nationality to redirect to Greece from Greeks by the time that every other article redirect to Greeks. Also, why did you remove the Naval Hero bit by the time that sources refer to him as such. I understand that you are admin but I find these edits POV motivated. Also you removed his nationality from the infobox. Is there a reason for that? You explained that we include nationality not ethnicity and both his nationality and ethnicity are Greek. Othon I (talk) 13:03, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The Greeks are an ethnic group; that's what that article is about. Being a citizen of Greece is a nationality. The only correct target for describing his nationlity is the country article. As for the "hero" bit, calling a person a "hero" is, quite obviously, a POV judgment. It doesn't matter how many sources contain that POV. Our sources, unlike we here on Wikipedia, are entitled to express POVs. That doesn't mean we should parrot them; we here remain neutral. It's fine to say (as we still do somewhere in the text) that he was considered a hero in his time; calling him a hero in our own voice is a no-no. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:10, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

I must say that I agree with what you say about the hero bit but I don't agre about the nationality. Every article I have read in Wikipedia redirects the nationality to the relevant ethnic group and not to the country of origin. As I understand it is your idea to redirect to country of origin/citizenship. It is not something very important but I believe that we have to follow what every article follows. Also I forgot to mention about the "hero" bit, if we state that "hailed as a hero" would it be POV? I am asking because the Greek Navy hails him as such. Othon I (talk) 00:45, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * No, standard practice is to link to the nation state, for modern figures. If you've seen it done otherwise on other articles, they've been doing it wrong. Of course it's different for pre-modern figures, from times when the respective nation states didn't exist yet. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:11, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Hidden text
The IP actually added something different that went against the original text observed in other relevant articles. Whether the original hidden text is added or not is trivial in my opinion. As explained the reason for its addition was inter-article consistency. Demetrios1993 (talk) 16:06, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * But I genuinely don't understand why that hidden text should be added in the first place, it doesn't contribute to the article in any way. If it appears to be true that succession titles and numbering aren't used in Greece (which I'm still not sure if it even matters considering that Wikipedia doesn't abide by the laws and rules of Greece), you can just remove it instead of adding an order written in capitals. Ahmet Q. (talk) 16:16, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The text is not for us who are discussing now, but for future editors concerning inter-article consistency. Furthermore, i didn't write it myself, just copied and pasted it here in its original form, which had capital letters. But again, whether it's added or not is trivial in my opinion. A sidenote. Numbers of succession indeed aren't used in Greece. The Greek Wikipedia also doesn't use them, and even if they were being used, there is also the issue of where to begin counting from. In a literal sense, the Presidential office of Greece was formed in the 18th of December 1974. Demetrios1993 (talk) 16:42, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * But the English Wikipedia is not supposed to follow what the Greek Wikipedia does even in articles related to Greece. The "official" presidential office of Greece was formed in 1974, but the title of president precedes this date and was already being used in the second Hellenic republic. Ahmet Q. (talk) 17:00, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * This is actually even written in the lede of the article President of Greece, so this actually means that numbering the presidents of Greece is completely possible. Ahmet Q. (talk) 17:05, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

I know what the article President of Greece says, and that's where the IP based his/her rationale. That's what i pertained to when i mentioned above that even if numbers of succession were being used, there would also be the issue of where to begin counting from. Even though the office existed in prior State periods as well, per the formation date (18 December 1974) that is also written in the aforementioned article, it would make more sense to begin counting from Michail Stasinopoulos. I didn't say to follow the example of Greek Wikipedia, just pointing out that there as well numbers of succession aren't mentioned. I don't know why numbers of succession aren't used in Greece in general, but it could be for avoiding confusion, as a result of the country's turbulent history and the many systems (political ideologies, offices, etc.) it went through during the last 200 years. It's not like the case of the United States who have an uninterrupted line of presidency from a Founding Father (George Washington) until today. Demetrios1993 (talk) 18:09, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't make sense to start numbering the presidents beginning from the period of the third republic just because the position was "formally" established in 1974, by doing so we would disregard all the other presidents whose statuses were obviously valid as well. As previously explained, the status of president in Greece existed long before 1974 and Pavlos Kountouriotis was indeed the first president of the Hellenic State. This should not only be mentioned in this article but also in the article President of Greece. It would be more logical to start the numbering from the first president of the state. I'm not sure that the fact that Greece didn't have the same presidential history as the United States has anything to do with the numbering process. After all France had also a turbulent history, yet Napoleon is considered to have been the first president of the country. Ahmet Q. (talk) 02:39, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That's the aforementioned issue that arises. In terms of the formal presidential office the article deals with, Michail Stasinopoulos is considered the first elected president. Demetrios1993 (talk) 04:44, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The fact that Pavlos was the first ever elected president of Greece should still be mentioned in the article President of Greece, since it completely falls under the scope of the topic of the article. If it wasn't the case that article would probably have been called "President of the Third Hellenic Republic" or something else in that sort. Michaili was only the first president of the third republic, nothing more than that. The aforementioned issue isn't even an issue and doesn't even matter, other countries have also had the function and exact definition of presidency change over time but those figures were and are still regarded as former presidents. The lead of the article related to Greece can easily be rewritten with reliable sources to coincide with other similar articles like the one I linked in my previous comment related to France for example. Ahmet Q. (talk) 14:52, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * But the article pertains specifically to the current presidential office as established on the 18th of December 1974, with its respective electoral process, listed powers, etc.. The title is not "President of the Third Hellenic Republic" per WP:COMMONNAME, since nobody uses this designation, even though technically it is the Third Hellenic Republic. The "history" section could include references about the office having antecedents in the Second Hellenic Republic of 1924–1935 and the Greek junta in 1973–1974, as is already mentioned in the lede, and maybe some additional details such as Pavlos being the former's first President, but not in the lede. Not even Stasinopoulos is mentioned there, even though he is more relevant to the presidential office being discussed. Only the incumbent one is mentioned. Demetrios1993 (talk) 18:35, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed the article is currently in a very poor condition and it erroneously only mentions the list of presidents of the third republic. I fail to see any sources in that article that meet the conditions to be considered WP:RS. The article completely ommits to mention the other presidents, namely those from the second republic when the monarchy was abolished and the function of president of Greece was officially implemented with the new constitution. At least we can agree that the history section needs to be expanded and to obviously mention the fact that the first Greek president was the Admiral Pavlos Kountouriotis. It would be really ridiculous to not include the most important event of the topic of the article in its history section. The issue concerning the visual representation of the presidents in form of lists should also be assessed. In my opinion, possible solutions would be to re-add the list of the remaining presidents of the second republic or to completely remove all the lists from the article and to create a new article that would be named "List of presidents of Greece" where all the presidents of the state would be mentioned. Ahmet Q. (talk) 23:14, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't see any major issues with the article other than maybe adding some additional details in the historical section (as aforementioned) and updating the references (since two out of the three have dead links). Most of what is presented can be referenced from the official website of the presidential office. The current list of the Presidents of the Third Hellenic Republic is relevant because that's what the article is supposed to present, namely the current presidential office with its electoral process, powers, oath, residence, etc.. In fact, that's what the aforementioned official website also presents in terms of prior relevant presidents. Beyond that, there was never a list of the Presidents from the Second Hellenic Republic and the Greek junta in the article. They were only added by an IP and subsequently removed three days ago, exactly because they aren't relevant to the presidential office that was established after 1974 with a new constitution. I am ok with the creation of a new List that will be presenting the different presidential periods and of course include a single sequential numbering. Demetrios1993 (talk) 02:56, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The major issue with the source is that it isn't RS and that it only lists the presidents after the new constitution of 1974 was implemented without any clear reason why it does so. For the sake of consistency with other similar articles across Wikipedia we have to include all the presidents of Greece, that's why I suggested to make a new article with the complete list of presidents of the country. Only having the list of the presidents of the third republic because the lede of the article is currently entirely based on a source which can't even be considered RS is misleading and doesn't justify the non-inclusion of former presidents. If you look at the article about the President of the United States which you linked above, you can see that no list is included in that article. However, an article List of presidents of the United States exists where all the presidents are mentioned. Same applies to the equivalent articles related to France, in my opinion we should be consistent and do the same with Greece and thus remove the list of the third republic from the article and create the article List of presidents of Greece. Ahmet Q. (talk) 11:40, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I do not agree with that approach at all as already explained, and i do not see any issue with the official website of the presidency being cited. Of course it only includes the Presidents after the current constitution was ratified, because that's what the article is about not the history of the presidency in general throughout the different periods. I know it might seem confusing due to it being called "President of Greece", but that is per WP:COMMONNAME as aforementioned, regardless of presenting the presidential office of the Third Hellenic Republic (which by they way is a technical term and isn't mentioned once within the constitution). Likewise, you would expect based on the title of the Constitution of Greece, that it would deal with the constitutional history beginning from the Independence War, but no, it begins from 1974 because technically that's when a new State was established. Instead, as already proposed and we seem to agree, the different presidential periods can be included in a List. I do not recall any specific guideline concerning inter-article consistency on such issues, but regardless of that there is. The President of the United States does includes a respective timeline which i did share again above. It begins with the first President, namely George Washington, but then again their constitution was ratified back at his time, contrary to the Greek constitution which was ratified in 1974. Same with the President of Italy which includes a respective timeline. And a similar example to Greece would be Germany, which historically began having the presidency with the foundation of the Weimar Republic back in 1919, hence the respective timeline, while the President of Germany includes only a list of the ones that participated in the current Federal Republic of Germany, after 1949. Demetrios1993 (talk) 13:08, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Since we both agree to create a list, I will start it on my sandbox, feel free to make edits to it if you want to. For the part we disagree on, I don't think we are making much progress in that regard so I suggest opening a rfc. And about the timelie, I don't oppose adding one in the article if it starts from the second republic. Ahmet Q. (talk) 08:07, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The Germany case is exactly like the one of Greece, thus i don't see why we can't agree when there are other similar examples. You also referred to inter-article consistency after all. No, i do not agree with the Second Hellenic Republic and the Junta timelines being included because they are unrelated to the article. They will be included in the future List after all. Furthermore, in the Germany article, just below the "List of Presidents" heading there is a line saying "See also: List of presidents of Germany" with the full historical timeline of their office. The very same formula should be used in the article presenting the Greek presidency, which as we know it today was ratified in 1974. Other periods are unrelated. Alternatively, even a "Presidential history of Greece" article could be created having the full timeline, but the President of Greece clearly pertains to a very specific office, namely the one created after 1974; it doesn't pertain to the presidential history of Greece. Demetrios1993 (talk) 09:10, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't agree at all, I'm not sure why we should fellow Gemany's article and not the two other examples of the United States (which you provided) and France. I have already stated my reasoning in my previous comments. Since we cannot reach consensus on this matter, I think the next step is opening an rfc. Ahmet Q. (talk) 17:56, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

The presidential office of the United States was created back in 1788 with the ratification of the Constitution of the United States, thus its timeline beginning from 1788 is justified; they continue to have the same constitution. France indeed doesn't include any timeline. As i have written above, i do not recall any specific guideline concerning inter-article consistency on such issues, but in the case of Greece the respective timeline has been there since very early, namely since the 22nd of February 2008, and it is also complimented by how the presidency officially presents itself beginning with Stasinopoulos; naturally (per the current constitution). In any case, if it comes down to an rfc i am ok. It should present three options. More or less:
 * The article should stay as it is with the presidential timeline beginning from 1974, which was when the current (Third Hellenic Republic) constitution of Greece was ratified. (In fact, now that i look at it the heading "List of presidents of the Third Hellenic Republic" should be changed to "List of presidents", just like the President of Germany has it. So it should also be included in the option.)
 * The article should include a complete historical timeline of the presidency in Greece, including the Presidents of the Second Hellenic Republic and the Greek Junta. (By the way, in that case i do not see a reason for a List being created.)
 * No timeline of Presidents should be included in the article. Demetrios1993 (talk) 20:10, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

conflicting dates of presidency
Page contains conflicting info regarding dates of presidency:

"served as the first president (provisional) of the Second Hellenic Republic, from September 1925 until his resignation in March 1926" vs "25 March 1924 – 6 April 1926" Yiannisarg (talk) 05:45, 26 August 2023 (UTC)


 * It's possible he announced his resignation in March but did not leave office until the following month. &#8209;&#8209;Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 18:05, 26 August 2023 (UTC)