Talk:Peace of Thorn (1411)

Groszes vs Groshes
It seems odd that both "groszes" and "groshes" are used in the same paragraph, apparently for the same thing. I don't know beans about them, though, so I don't know what the right word is. Jordan Brown 04:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Neither was, its Groschen. -- Matthead discuß!    O       21:14, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Naming
Called "First Peace of Thorn" in recent sources 1411 "first peace of" date:1993-2007. The town of Thorn did not change its name to a Polish one anyway, not in 1411, not in 1466, but only after 1919.-- Matthead discuß!    O       21:33, 6 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Feel free to start a WP:RM. Olessi 14:17, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Treaty Terms
I've got some additional information on the terms of this treaty, from an interesting source. I've been reading The Letters of John Hus, translated by Matthew Spinka (ISBN: 0874710219 9780874710212). In it is a letter dated in 1411 from Hus to the King of Poland, congratulating him on the win. It also mentions many of the terms from the treaty, and asks where the two swords are that the Teutonics gave the Poles before the battle in order to mock them. Noteworthy in the terms is that the Teutonics had to pledge 300 knights to the defense of the Polish king, if Bohemia ever attacked the Poles. Would some of this be worth quoting and including? Thanks! --Dulcimerist (talk) 18:51, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I've typed excerpts of two Jan Hus letters, posting them to the discussion page of a related article, if anyone wants to use the source material. --Dulcimerist (talk) 02:32, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Here's the quote of the treaty terms from the Hus letter:


 * To an Unknown Priest
 * Written by Jan Hus in Prague, Spring of 1411
 * ... The Polish king (Władysław Jagiello), because of his humility, secured a victory. The terms of peace are already agreed on (The Peace of Toruń, 1 February 1411). It is commonly said that the Prussians are to serve for all times the Polish king with three hundred lances against anyone in the kingdom of Bohemia. Also they must give him three hundred thousand marks of gold. About the land of Pomerania an edict should be made by lord (scratched out in letter); they must pay the king two (scratched out in letter), one full of gold and the other of silver. I shall write later what further I learn...


 * Hopefully this is of some use. --Dulcimerist (talk) 07:10, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR (talk) 07:54, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

According to WP:COMMONNAME, an article's title should be at the most common phrasing used in English.

The following is a perusal of Google Books. Google results by themselves can be fickle and the exact numbers may differ depending when a query is conducted, but the proportions indicate primary English usage.
 * First Peace of Thorn: 46
 * First Peace of Torun: 2
 * First Peace of Toruń: 0


 * First Treaty of Thorn: 8
 * First Treaty of Torun: 2
 * First Treaty of Toruń: 0


 * Peace of Thorn 1411: 95
 * Peace of Torun 1411: 16
 * Peace of Toruń 1411: 4


 * Treaty of Thorn 1411: 39
 * Treaty of Torun 1411: 10
 * Treaty of Toruń 1411: 1

An examination of Google Books publications indicates the predominance of "Thorn" over Toruń/Torun in historical usage. Although there are many older publications within the results, newer books still slightly prefer Thorn over Toruń/Torun. Although the city Toruń is in modern Poland, this is an article about a historic treaty. The better titles seem to me to be First Peace of Thorn or Peace of Thorn (1411). The current title, Peace of Toruń (1411), is rarely used in English compared to the alternatives. Olessi (talk) 05:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Molobo advertised this discussion at Portal talk:Poland/Poland-related Wikipedia notice board. I have subsequently listed it at WikiProject Middle Ages/General and Wikipedia talk:German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board. Olessi (talk) 15:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Please note that the language in common use at that time (16th century) was Latin, I am not sure of this, but assume that the treaty itself was written in Latin. The name of the city was civitas Torunensis (see Names of European cities in different languages) which indicates that historically Torun is the correct spelling. Syrenab (talk) 22:18, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Support any formulation with "Thorn." This usage follows quality sources such as Cambridge, Britannica, &c. in addition to the Google Book results (which are sometimes more questionable).  I marginally prefer Peace of Thorn (1411) to First Peace of Thorn since sources using "second" are often not using it as a proper noun but as a descriptive.  Also support a move of the disambiguation page.  The contemporary Latin name for the city is not really relevant to a modern encyclopedia; instead go with the common English name drawn from the literature. —   AjaxSmack   01:27, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support any formulation with "Thorn", too. How about using First Peace Treaty of Thorn (1411) to cover all combinations? A somewhat multi-redundant tautology, but then the mountain called Schneekoppe by a future US president around 1800 is named on English Wikipedia as Sněžka-Śnieżka. Gesundheit! -- Matthead Discuß   02:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose. Google counts are hardly best way to establish the proper name. Due to German occupation of Poland and eradication of Polish state by Germany, google lists several German publications that insisted on German names and hence such results won't be neutral.--Molobo (talk) 11:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Molobo. Tymek (talk) 13:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * English historian, Norman Davies (honorary doctor of the universities of Lublin and Gdańsk, member in the Polish Academy of Learning), in God's Playground (required reading in many Polish classrooms) uses several times "of Thorn", in regard to both 15th century Treaty of Thorn as well as to the 1724 Tumult of Thorn, but never "of Torun" (or "of Toruń"). Tymek and Molobo, is Poland and England and Google currently under "German occupation"? Who or what "won't be neutral"? Besides, the article on the Blood-bath of Thorn was moved to Tumult of Thorn (Toruń) in Dec 2007, hardly with consensus. This needs to be fixed, too. -- Matthead Discuß   14:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose. Davies didn't write an encyclopedia and Google hits largely represent publications from Cold War period when German names were favored. Also sources from after 1990 use Cold War publications as a source and so on. Show me encyclopedic sources. Space Cadet (talk) 14:47, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Space Cadet, you may want to study WP:5P, WP:NPOV, WP:V WP:RS, WP:CS, WP:NOR. Wikipedia should not echo other "encyclopedic" Tertiary sources.-- Matthead Discuß   15:12, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Support per Matthead and AjaxSmack(Pommerland (talk) 15:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC))
 * Per Wikipedia voting rules the above vote should be ignored as the user has less then 50 edits on Wiki and is a new user.--Molobo (talk) 18:24, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * As per now, Pommerland has eleven edits. And Molobo has about twice as many blocks. Please do not bite the newcomers. -- Matthead Discuß   21:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What bite ? The voting rules are clear on number of edits and being considered on vote. They speak nothing of blocks. Cheers.--Molobo (talk) 21:23, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Anyway, Wikipedia's ... primary method of determining consensus is through editing and discussion, not voting. Polling is not a substitute for discussion -- Matthead Discuß   08:12, 17 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose, per Syrenab's argument. If we say that the medieval name should be used, that would be the Latin Civitas Torunensis — not "Thorn."  Nihil novi (talk) 21:05, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support It´s just consequent to name it “Peace of Thorn” as the town was part of the Monastic state of the Teutonic Knights at that time and Thorn was the official and common name in English.(HerkusMonte (talk) 05:32, 12 May 2008 (UTC))
 * Strong support for Thorn. From discussion and presented sources it is evident that this formulation is the right one. M.K. (talk) 08:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support per  AjaxSmack   . Skäpperöd (talk) 18:32, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong support - in Naming_conventions_%28geographic_names%29 it says to use the widely accepted English name for each historical period in time. To use the Polish names for that time period would be an anachronism. Der Eberswalder (talk) 09:54, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Suggesting a move to First Peace of Thorn (1411) according to Second Peace of Thorn (1466). The move request there is closed.-- Matthead Discuß   21:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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