Talk:Pebbles (musician)/Archive 1

Untitled
I created Perri Alette McKissack/Temp by merging content from Perri "Pebbles" Reid and Pebbles. Please move to Perri Alette McKissack when the copyviolated version is deleted. —Mar:17:11 Z

This page should be moved to Perri "Pebbles" Reid, as that is the suject's most common name. --FuriousFreddy 12:11, 24 August 2005 (UTC)


 * This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 09:58, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Pebbles Album.jpg
Image:Pebbles Album.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Pebbles - Straight From The Heart.jpg
Image:Pebbles - Straight From The Heart.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Pebbles - Greatest Hits.jpg
Image:Pebbles - Greatest Hits.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Pebbles - Are You Ready.jpg
Image:Pebbles - Are You Ready.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Pebbles - Always.jpg
Image:Pebbles - Always.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Marriage information
I have been removing some unsourced marriage information and restoring some sourced information. An IP editor who has been removing the marriage info (example) has asked on my talk page that I not restore this information stating, "We are removing this information through a request from Perri Reid's counsel." I do not know who "we" refers to or why they are asking that this info be removed. I have informed them that they will need to pursue this issue further as other editors will likely restore this information at some point. The information in question concerns two marriages, citing an AP article, which is certainly reliable and a database search, which does not seem to be. (The removals were made without comment or explanation. My reverts be based entirely on the edits be unexplained blanking. As the link for the database search includes the alleged spouse's name, I am not including that link here, though it is currently available in the article's history.) Unless there is further explanation/discussion on this (and/or admin action), I fully expect the AP sourced info to be restored at some point. The other name(s) would need reliable sourcing. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 03:55, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Another editor has been adding and restoring lots of unsourced information (here, here and here among others), which I am continuing to revert. As this is a WP:BLP article, I will continue to do so unless and until the material cites independent reliable sources. That said, the editor restored the one well-sourced marriage with a reliable source that a different editor has disputed without eplanation. As the source is clearly reliable and no explanation has been given for removing it, I have left it in place. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 01:32, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Copyright violation
This edit on May 3, 2011 is a blatant copyright violation from the fansite pebbles2day.com, as shown by this archived copy of the site from April 26, 2011. Unfortunately, this will mean we will have to revert the page to the edit before the copyright violation. I will be setting an in-use tag to avoid edit conflicts while I work on restoring what little reliably source info has been added since then. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 14:42, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Spam
Someone using the IP address 71.105.104.206 has been spamming pages on black musicians, adding promotional material on "George Smith" (no idea who that is) and his son, an alleged "singer/dancer/producer" called "2 Krayze." This kid is a Disney Channel artist and a relative non-entity. A quick Google search for "2 krayze" reveals that someone has been copying 2 Krayze's profile from the Disney Channel website and pasting it into the comments sections on black-culture articles and blogs. It looks like this kid and his family (who are listed as his managers/agents/whatever) are orchestrating a deliberate spam campaign to manufacture fake publicity for 2 Krayze. Other articles that this spammer has attacked include Bobby Brown, Loose Ends (band)‎ and The Gap Band‎. I'm not sure whether "George Smith" did in fact manage all these artists, but all the edits that 71.105.104.206 has made look a lot like spam. I'm going to revert all the edits that this person has made and put the above pages on my watchlist. If anybody has more information about this spammer, please leave a message on my talk page. Huntthetroll (talk) 17:56, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The spammer, using the IP address 67.182.72.212, added the self-promotional information back to Bobby Brown, Perri "Pebbles" Reid, Loose Ends (band)‎ and Bobby Brown. I have reverted all those edits, and will leave warnings on the talk page for that user. Does anyone know how to report spam to administrators? Huntthetroll (talk) 21:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Birthdate
According to California birth records, Pebbles was born Aug 29, 1964.

Source: http://www.familytreelegends.com/records/calbirths?c=search&first=PERRI&last=MCKISSACK&spelling=Exact&4_year=&4_month=0&4_day=0&5=&7=&SubmitSearch.x=0&SubmitSearch.y=0 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mseames (talk • contribs) 23:49, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, and her IMDb page also confirms it. I think the birthdate should be changed. Jjmcspooh (talk) 05:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I've corrected the birthdate in the article --Megaboz (talk) 19:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

We cannot use the primary source (California birth records) per WP:BLP and WP:IRS. IMDb is not a reliable source for biographical information. The reliable secondary published source cited says November 6, 1966. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 00:51, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

What, another lie from music media (reliable source AllMusic?) to boost sales or something? There were already wrong dates on this page, claiming the birth year was 1968, now 1966. It's a known fact, that music industry often lies for profit(also that site is newer), so how come it's trusted more over primary source and multiple older sources with 1964? Check these links, it all points that the real birth year is 1964: http://www.nndb.com/people/479/000045344/ http://articles.latimes.com/1988-05-22/entertainment/ca-4676_1_pebbles-album http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20100090,00.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.243.64.187 (talk) 08:08, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm addressing this below. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 13:34, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

intro
my edit is this
 * Perri A. Reid (born Perri Arnette McKissack  on August 29, 1964), formerly known as Pebbles, is an American dance-pop and urban contemporary singer-songwriter. She is now a minister in Atlanta known as Sister Perri.

What about this do you disagree on ? What could we both agree to change about this sentence? I am trying to follow your above comments but it is all over the place. Since when is Cali Birth Index not reliable. Why is AMG and Artist direct more reliable ? Those came out years later while Cali birth index is compiled when you are born. The poster '94.243.64.187' makes a good point about lying abut their age to be younger to be accepted( examples of this are models Tomiko Fraser (read this http://mommynoire.com/35121/goddessgasm-by-tomiko-fraser-hines-no-more-lies/2/#) and Agyness Deyn (read this :  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2107449/Agyness-Deyn-confesses-lied-age-really-29.html) are examples of this.; so perhaps Pebbles did as well?

Even to this day (redacted) claims she was born in 1970 but her birth record and ny ID state 1969 as confirmed by People (magazine)...that 1year means a difference to her! I'd be willing to put 1964 or 1966 if you are. I dont know what to say for her actual birthdate, was it Aug or Sept ? Let me know your thoughts.65.205.13.26 (talk) 23:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)


 * As explained above the version you are reverting to is apparently a copyright violation. I have reverted it as such. If you restore an apparent copyright violation, you can and will be blocked from editing the article. If necessary, we will copy protect the article to prevent editing by anonymous editors. This is not negotiable.
 * As explained, we do not use primary sources for biographical details, such as birth dates. Please see Blp.
 * In your comments above I have redacted a potentially libelous comment. Please use caution when making contentious claims about living people. See WP:BLP.
 * Similarly, I have removed the unsourced marriages and births.
 * If you are having difficulty following the discussions, PLEASE partialize. Rather than trying to do everything at once let's tackle the individual facts first, then work out the order, layout, etc. In the meantime, I will be removing any and all unsourced and/or poorly sourced contentious information per our policy on biographies of living persons. "Contentious material about living persons ... that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion."
 * As you are clearly editing under changing IP addresses, please consider this to be a warning for you as an individual: "If you violate Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy by inserting unsourced or poorly sourced defamatory content into an article or any other Wikipedia page again, you may be blocked from editing without further notice." Please discuss the possible addition of any questionable information before adding it to the article. If you are unsure of a source or disagree with my take on a source (such as the birth records), please seek a consensus at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard before adding the information. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 02:37, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

You say I should discuss before I make an edit, do you do that ? As you can see i am trying to go section by section. Others too have tried but you run them away. You dont own this page, neither do I. This is a COLLABORATION. 65.205.13.26 (talk) 03:46, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Per WP:BLP, "Contentious material about living persons (or in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." Additionally, also per WP:BLP, "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth...". This is our policy and applies to article space and talk pages. It is not a question of collaboration. Additionally, the version you are reverting to contains sections that are identical to the source. This is a copyright violation and must be removed. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 04:03, 16 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Please note that this time your edit was reverted by an administrator. I have added an edit warring warning to your talk page. If you restore the contentious material again without providing reliable sources or demonstrating a consensus to accept the edits as is, you will be blocked from editing. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 04:15, 16 November 2013 (UTC)


 * The article is now under semi-protection. Only confirmed users may edit the article. If you do not have a confirmed account, you will need to discuss the issue here and establish a consensus to have the edit made. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 05:26, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

section 1: what should be in early career?
I think you have put too much in 1 section. What I did is separate 'CAREER into 'early career' and talk just about Pebbles singing career. I think her management of tLC should be a separate section called 'pebbitone & tlc'. I think her marriages and kids should be a separate section. I see you wrote that this info is plagarised from her official website 'pebbles2day.com' so I will re write it so it isnt plagarism. Let me know your thoughts ! 65.205.13.26 (talk) 00:20, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

VS VS VS VS VS VS VS

section 2: how about a separate section for Pebbles managing TLC?
I think a seperate section for her forming her management company and creating TLC. What do you think ?

Let me know your thoughts! 65.205.13.26 (talk) 01:13, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

current version is disputed.replace with this
This page is in dispute. The current version is a disputed version. summerphd got the page locked to of course its own version,which is disputed version. We dont agree on its content. From Perri's name (Perri McKissack or Perri Alette McKissick or Perri Arnette Mckissak) to her DOB(Aug 1964 or Sep 1966) to her husbands and kids. I wrote to summperphd to say that we should list both DOB dates--like how it used to be on Rachel Zoe and Jessica Chastain--but summerphd never responded. Instead another revert to its version of the article. Then summerphd called an admin and admin locked page to summer phd's disputed version. That is not fair. That is not consensus. A neutral version should be saved.

Please replace the current page with this page that has all debated information removed. Once consensus is reached the information could be added. Thank You. Please edit the page to this

< >

Perri Reid (born Perri McKissack ), best known by her former stage name, Pebbles, and later known as Sister Perri, is an American dance-pop and urban contemporary singer-songwriter.
 * The version you have repeatedly reverted to contains a copyright violation (as explained above) and, as repeatedly explained, contains unsourced contentious information (several alleged husbands and children) as well as a birth date source that WP:BLP directly states should not be used. You seem to have either not read WP:BLP, not understood it or decided it doesn't matter. If you have not read it, please do so now. If you do not see how this applies to the current situation, please ask. If you don't think it matters, please understand: It is Wikipedia's policy. Your choices are: 1) follow it 2) follow it for now, work to change it, then follow the new version or 3) not edit Wikipedia. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 23:48, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

IMDb vs AMG
Historically, Wikipedia does not use IMDb for biographical information as that section of the site is user generated (albeit with some oversight). AMG, on the other hand, has long been one of our accepted sources. In fact AMG is use by the New York Times. If you disagree with either of these assessments, please raise the issue at the Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Thanks. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 05:30, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

AMG
Another voice heard from on the birth date issue: In numerous discussions, it has been noted that IMDb's biographical info is essentially user submitted info (though with some oversight) and is therefore not reliable for biographical info. Search engines, while a great way to find sources that might be useful, merely regurgitate info from whatever they are used to search. If the engine is searching a garbage pile, it will find garbage. AMG is, FWIW, widely used on Wikipedia. That doesn't really tell us anything other than the fact that, well, it is widely used on Wikipedia. IMO, the fact that the New York Times uses it counts for something. We'll have to see what the consensus is. For the moment, I've removed the info. Comments? - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 14:45, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
 * "This is NOT a legitimate source for McKissack's age. I don't understand how one can rely on such a dubious source, when clearly "Pebbles" is listed as legally age 49 and born August 29, 1964. This tomfoolery has misled major media publications about her." (Removing allmusic as a source, replacing info with a new date.)
 * (No edit summary, cites IMDb as the source for the birth date.)
 * "Neither is AllMusic a reliable source. Reid has numerous times stated having daughter Ashley Smith at age 18 on January 29, 1983. She was 31 in 1995" Removes allmusic and date, replacing it with intelius search results as a source.)
 * IMdb is not a reliable source and neither are search results. If there is a dispute about Allmusic then leave it out until a second source can be found. Although I agree it is a reliable source, it seems to conflict with . -- Neil N  talk to me  15:04, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Article Composition
Judging by the edit history and talk section on this page, I do not understand what is the meaning of this erroneous mess and domineering control by a single entity. Perri A. McKissack Sharrieff clearly is not born anywhere close to November 1966, as her oldest child Ashley Winzer was born on January 29, 1983 to an 18 year-old Perri and George Smith. It needs to be changed to the correct one, as it's equally defamatory to give the impression that this individual was statutorily raped to have conceived her child at age 15 in mid-1982 and not the age of 17 as it truly was. Her daughter has already stated she's 30 years old in November 2013. As "Pebbles", she mentioned this herself in circa May 1991 and in this other video as well in September 1990.

The nearest given date that corresponds to such ages is August 29, 1964. You assume that AMG and All Music are supposedly correct, but forget that sources can easily be inaccurate in being lazily/ignorantly sourced. One does not have time to be doing such further, extensive research on alternative sources to support a singular, oddly biased party's preferences on Wikipedia.

This individual's public presence in the entertainment industry somewhat diminished and her life became heavily privatized, after a self-imposed reclusion in 1996. Thus, finding such personal information as such as a birth date, is NOT a given in many popular reputable music sources. During the last 15+ years, most "verifiable" sources have not possessed any iota of interest in a reclusive Perri McKissack Smith Reid Nixon Sharrieff's personal information. All Music for their own dubious reasons have failed to obtain accurate information pertaining to the correct birthdate and present legal age of Perri McKissack and have proven themselves to not be credible on that front. "Pebbles" likely lied during her early career about her age, only to become more honest due to the age of her growing, 6 year-old daughter around 1989.

SummerPhd, your conduct here is already quite questionable regarding WP:OWN and might need further investigation. As I clarified before, this article is currently full of inaccuracies and greatly outdated with equally poor sources. My coming here is being shocked at major media publications and other third parties naively taking your incorrectly sourced birthdate of November 6, 1966 as fact. I only used Intelius as source, in it being publicly accessible and always corresponding with other legal records that I have private access to. I will take this up elsewhere if need be, as it's damaging to Wikipedia credibility how some information here contrasts with factual reality.--Carmaker1 (talk) 03:08, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow. You'll have to excuse my domineering control, but Wikipedia is about verifiability, not "Truth".
 * We do not use primary sources (whether they are "publicly accessible" or something that you have private access to) for birth dates in biographies of living persons. "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth..." This is policy. It is absolutely unambiguous. Do not cite a birth date based on public records. It's that simple.
 * Anonymous editors popping by here to remove reliably sourced information to add unsourced information in its place is primarily an indication of an editor who does not understand that biographies of living persons require sources. Repeatedly making defamatory claims about various living people on the talk page and refusing policy-based removal of same underscores this. Insisting that a source must be "wrong" because it does not agree with the sources you have accepted and repeatedly restoring a blatant copyright violation indicates there is clearly a problem that cannot be resolved by collaboration.
 * At the first indication that someone believed AMG was not reliable, I removed the information sourced to it and took it to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard (where it is currently being discussed). This does not mean that IMDb is suddenly a reliable source for biographical information (the consensus is that it is not). This does not mean that database search results are suddenly a reliable source (the consensus is they are not).
 * I admit that I have been removing unsourced and poorly sourced material without waiting for discussion. WP:BLP spells this out quite clearly.
 * If you look a bit further back in the edit history you poured over, you will find an editor (claiming to represent Reid) removing some of the very same unsourced marriages you have casually added to your comment (along with the unsourced middle name and the contentious birthday). If you have reliable sources for those marriages, please present them, I have yet to see anything. Otherwise, I will remove the names again in a couple of days. If you believe the names should not be removed, I can think of several ways for you to handle this: 1) Add reliable sources for this material. This would be my preference. 2) Remove the names yourself. 3) Explain how you feel WP:BLP does not apply here. 4) Take the issue to Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard for clarification. 5) Wait until I remove the names, say it is an ownership issue and take it to AN/I or whatever other venue you feel is appropriate. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 04:02, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Here's what is baffling about your most recent edit:
 * For her birth name, you cite AMG, which you seem to otherwise believe is unreliable.
 * For her birth date, ignoring the full date given in the AMG source you've just cited, you use a source that does not give a specific date to support your preferred date.
 * For her birth place, you're back to the AMG cite that you've just gotten through saying is not reliable.
 * While the issue is being discussed (here and at the RS/N), you seem to be insisting that your unsourced/very poorly sourced birth date is better than no birth date at all. Can you perhaps clarify how your source gives the date or why this otherwise unsourced information should be acceptable? - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 04:11, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * In this discussion on the RS/N, it was decided that AMG is a reliable source for the specific date and your Jet article is a reliable source (but not for the specific date you used, which simply isn't there). Additionally, two other reliable sources were identified, providing two additional varients. For the moment, I have added all four to the article. Zero to two of them are correct. All of them are verifiable. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 04:09, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

helpme: please archive sections 1 - 10.5
hello. I requested that sections 1- 10.5 be archived so the talk page isnt long. Huon replied that summerphd archived the page --even though no one asked it to intervene and it isnt an admin. Well the page isnt archived. That is why an admin--someone who knows what the fvck they are doing-- should reply and summerphd should not intervene.

Again please archive sections 1-10.5. 65.205.13.26 (talk) 01:05, 23 November 2013 (UTC)


 * MiszaBot I should be archiving the page (as set up by SummerPhD, and whether or not she's an admin is irrelevant for that), but the bot seems to have stopped working last month. Thus I've manually archived those threads which haven't been active within the past month. Those which have been edited within the past few days or which may still be relevant to the current discussions should not be archived yet. Huon (talk) 02:11, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Huon Thank You! 65.205.13.26 (talk) 03:03, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Recent edit
The edit discussed below is problematic for a number of reasons. However, the copyright violation being restored and the potential WP:BLP issues are the reason for my wholesale revert before discussion. I am tagging the editor in question with both warnings.

Source: allmusic vs. artistdirect
Among other things, this edit replaces the allmusic source with artist direct.


 * The allmusic cite is a full cite, the artist direct is a bare link, vulnerable to link rot.
 * The articles are essentially identical.
 * All music is part of All Media Network, LLC, cited by the New York Times for movie information and, on occasion, music info as well.
 * Artist Direct, a retailer, is either licensing the info from AMG or violating AMG's copyright. Either way, AMG is the source, not Artist Direct. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 20:26, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Birth name
Among other things, this edit claims her birth name is "Perri Arnette McKissack", citing Artist Direct. Both Artist Direct and AMG say "Perri McKissack". Neither one includes a middle name. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 20:29, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Birth date
Among other things, this edit removes the birth date of November 6, 1966, in Oakland, California cited to AMG) and replaces it with August 29, 1964, in San Francisco, California, vaguely citing the California Birth Index, 1905-1995 via Ancestry.com.
 * Both AMG and Artist Direct say November 6, 1966, in Oakland, California. AMG is a reliable secondary published source.
 * The California Birth Index is a primary source. We do not use primary sources in this manner in biographies of living persons. It does not tie this name and birth info to Perri Reid. (Also, Ancestry.com is not a reliable source.) - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 20:37, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Another warning - did people working with the music industry altered the birth date again for profit? How exactly AMG = All Music Group as a reliable source, aren't they looking for profit and sales? There were already wrong dates on this page, claiming the birth year was 1968, now 1966. It's a known fact, that music industry often lies for profit(also that site is newer), so how come it's trusted more over primary source and multiple older sources with 1964? Check these links, it all points that the real birth year is 1964: http://www.nndb.com/people/479/000045344/ http://articles.latimes.com/1988-05-22/entertainment/ca-4676_1_pebbles-album http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20100090,00.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.243.64.187 (talk) 08:22, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I changed the birth date in the article to match the only reliable source we had for the information. I have no idea how the "music industry" would profit from this small change to her birth date. AMG is trusted because it has an established reputation for fact checking and accuracy, so much so that the New York Times uses it as a source. The "Notable Names Database" pulls data from various sources of unknown quality and allows for some user editing. It is not a reliable source. We do not use primary sources for birth info in BLP articles. The LA Times article you cite does not include a birth date that I can find. The People article does not give a specific date, but says she was 23 in an article dated October 3, 1988. Our sourced date gives her birth date as November 6, 1966 which would have made her just under 22 at that time. At the moment, I see a reliably sourced birth date, an unreliable date that disagrees and a reliable source that seems to disagree but does not give a date. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 13:28, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

This article has repeated changes on the birth date, which should raise some doubt about its validity. Many musicians claim to be younger, to sell more records partially influenced by appearance and youth. I'm not sure how real birth date, might be detrimental to some person's personal life, judging by "Avoid misuse of primary sources". If Wikipedia supports the birth date just being made up of lies for celebrities, then remove all birth dates or state out-rightly that they might be incorrect. Both LA times and People sites show her as being 23 in 1988, but LA times date is may, 1988, but people.com shows october, 1988. Look, 1988 - 23 years = 1965 at max, not 1966; Also this female singer had some experience with music even in 1981, if she's from 1966 that would make her 15 then, which is possible, but not quite convincing, given the more adult titles: http://www.discogs.com/artist/Perri+McKissack — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.243.64.187 (talk • contribs) 11:21, October 31, 2013‎
 * Our policy is very clear: "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth..." I find no ambiguity here and consider the question of using a primary source closed. If you wish to argue this point, you will need to discuss it at a higher level.
 * Your argument regarding titles she sang backing vocals on having "adult" titles is speculation that adds nothing here. (Blind_Faith_(Blind_Faith_album) and Bow_wow_wow come to mind.)
 * The well sourced birth date we have does seem to conflict with the two reliable sources you've cited. If we find a differing birth date in a reliable source, we will be in one of the situations we periodically run into where we have to cite more than on possible date.
 * (Your repeated speculation/allegations that the "music industry" is lying to somehow profit from a false birth date is baseless and rather pointless here.) - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 16:42, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Latest efforts to change the sourced birth date brought about a disruptive editing block for Perriareid. A sockpuppet, Naomi92ten was blocked shortly after that. Next steps may lead to edit protection of the article and, as needed, longer blocks. As an alternative to that, I would like to suggest discussing the issue here and locating reliable sources. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 22:34, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Copyright violation, again
Among other things, this edit restores the copyright violation discussed above. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 20:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Marriage information, again
Among other things, this edit restores unsource marriage information discussed above. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 20:41, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

This version has NO INFORMATION. Summerphd you need to be collaborative. It is a fact that she was married to george L Smith, L A Reid, Otis Nixon, and is now married to Excel Sharieef. It is a fact that she has at least 2 kids--ashley and aaron--and may have a 3rd. i am reverting and restoring. 21:36, 15 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I have removed these unsourced contentious claims per WP:BLP. Please see the discussion below. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 02:41, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I have restored my posts. Do not change what I have written. You are not an administrator. From THE ARTICLE claims must be removed. From the talk page information is to be talked about. Most importantly, get an administrator as you dont know what you are doing. 65.205.13.26 (talk) 15:56, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Per WP:BLP: "Contentious material about living persons (or in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion....This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages." I have removed the material again. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 16:54, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

I have restored my post that destructive summerphd deleted. There isnt anyhting contentious about pebbles ex husbands or kids. Eliz Taylor's page has her 8 ex husbands! 65.205.13.26 (talk) 23:40, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Taylor's ex husbands are very well sourced. If they weren't, they would be a WP:BLP problem. "Contentious material about living persons (or in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." This is our policy. Please read WP:BLP. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 05:43, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Pebbles' official facebook has her name as 'perri reid sharieff' : https://www.facebook.com/Pebbles2day. Pebbles was married to LA Reid : http://www.essence.com/2011/03/15/exclusive-la-reid-perri-pebbles-reid-essence-rb-star/ 65.205.13.26 (talk) 23:55, 22 November 2013 (UTC).

Pebbles on marriage to LA Reid, her daughter Ashley, their son Aaron : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8EXxcnjCkA. 65.205.13.26 (talk) 01:24, 23 November 2013.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.205.13.26 (talk) 01:24, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Another marriage to LA Reid link : http://nymag.com/nymetro/arts/music/features/4318/index2.html. 65.205.13.26 (talk) 03:06, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

SUMMERPHD is dominating this page, to its detriment
I took a break from this article. I see the bullsh*t continues. Please tell summerphd to STOP EDITING MY POSTS. It is not libel to include the names of her ex husbands banker George L Smith, music producer/Epic records CEO LA Reid, adn current husband lawyer Excel Sharieeff. it is not libel to include the names of her children ashley and aaron. Her third child son Tian McKissack I'd understand as she hasnt publicly claimed him. 2)summer phd IS NOT AN ADMIN. I asked an admin to archive this page. summerphd stepped in when s/he shouldnt have and one week later this page still is not archived. 3)I understand this page is disputed. So i get that my version is not saved. what I dont get is why summerphd's version is saved? That version is disputed as well. A basic version should be saved and once there is consensus the information added to the article. 4) summerphd got this page locked so no one could edit it but s/he, how is that fair ? 65.205.13.26 (talk) 23:33, 22 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Contentious unsourced or improperly sourced content on living persons must be removed on sight. If you know of reliable third-party sources for those marriages and children, please provide them. Otherwise the content will have to be removed. Re-adding unsourced content on living persons despite objections is not acceptable. This holds for talk pages just as much as for articles - you're not free to add unsourced rumors to a talk page "for discussion". Also, random YouTube videos are not reliable. So I dug up some reliable sources : Her son Aaron Reid, Ashley Reid. However, other parts of the content you added I couldn't find reliable sources for, but I did find some rather unsavory rumors. Under these circumstances we should be particularly careful not to add unsourced content. Huon (talk) 03:05, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Long story short, the version that is currently up is the version that does not contain unsourced/poorly sourced claims.
 * I have added the Essence article Huon located as a source for the already sourced marriage to Reid, correcting his job title at the time. I did not immediately see anything additional to add from the hollywoodreporter.com piece. As the current infobox does not have "spouse(s)" or "children" parameters and I didn't see an obvious place to add them, I haven't added Aaron and Ashley yet. Any suggestions as to where, if anywhere, their inclusion might be appropriate?
 * Her marriage to Nixon is already sourced and in the article. The others remain unsourced, out of the article and will have to be removed from this talk page. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 06:13, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Requesting Help
1 Please could you archive sections 1- 10.5 so this page isnt so long ?

2- Please tell summerphd to stop censoring my posts. I am trying to post section by section and then come to an agreement. summerphd comes in and edits my content, redacting it. Now summer has the page locked--of course it is locked to summer'd disputed version.If you look at the edit history summer has run off many but I will not be scared. I will be bold. How are editors supposed to source the information if summer continuously redacts it ?

If you look summer has NOT replied to the 3 sections i asked about. But sure did revert to its saved version of the article and then got an admin to lock the page. That isnt collaborative at all.

Thank you! 65.205.13.26 (talk) 16:01, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I have now restored my response that you seem to have inadvertently deleted. I did not respond to your questions about how to format the contentious information as it is premature to discuss where and how to add information that is not reliably sourced. In addition to being completely unsourced, the information has been challenged by someone claiming to represent Reid (see User_talk:SummerPhD). The article has been protected because of repeated additions of unsourced and poorly sourced contentious information about a living person AND repeated restoration of a copyright violation.
 * I have repeatedly removed the contentious claims from the article and talk pages, as described in WP:BLP. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 16:55, 16 November 2013 (UTC)


 * SummerPhD has activated MiszaBot, which should begin archiving this talk page shortly. Regarding "censorship", the policy on biographies of living persons holds on talk pages, too, and contentious, possibly libelous, unsourced statements about living persons must be removed on sight. You should never add information about a living person without a source - if you intend to source it later, wait with adding it until you can add reliable sources, too. Furthermore, the sources should actually support what you cite them for - and the source for the claim that Reid married Nixon doesn't actually say so. Huon (talk) 18:35, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

summerphd: More beating around the bush. I added 3 sections. You commented only on her marriage. You are being for real. What about my question about having a separate section for her singing career and then her management of TLC? About her religious career ? You didnt comment because you dont want to work together. 65.205.13.26 (talk) 21:26, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Hello Huon : 1) it has been 3 hours, when will that bot start working? summerphd is not an admin so how did it activiate a bot ? 2)summerphd is saying the info is contentious because it doesnt want the info here, who else is saying it is contentious? adultery is included on wikipedia, for example LeAnn Rimes adultery. 2a) what is contentious about her kids? she has them they are public figures themselves with art galleries, radio shows, being on mtv sweet 16. 3)How can editors give source if the info is redacted? 4)The source for Otis Nixon is summerphd's edit. I am trying to add her marriages and divorces from George L Smith, LA Reidl her current marriage to excel Sharieff. Thank You. 65.205.13.26 (talk) 21:39, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) The next time the bot runs, it will archive older items. Talk page archive bots can be activated by anyone. I am not an "it", I prefer "she".
 * 2) Rimes affair is sourced, citing both People magazine and Billboard. Your repeated addition of kids has not been sourced.
 * 2a) "Public figures" does not mean what you think it means. You will need to cite reliable sources.
 * 3) Like this: "In this edit I added info on 563 men I believe Reid has been married to. It was reverted as unsourced. I could not find a source for all of them, but this article in the South African Medical Journal lists the last 408 of them."
 * 4) If you would like to add additional marriages, you will need to cite reliable sources for the information. Failing that, their names will not appear in the article as the information is not verifiable. As the claims are completely unsourced, unless there is a policy based reason for keeping the claims on the talk page in violation of WP:BLP, I will remove them again in a couple of days. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 23:40, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * As you have not responded, I have removed the WP:BLP violations. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 16:56, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Restoring my comment in #4 from 16Nov as it was incorrectly labelled contentious and libel. Also, in #3 up about ssummperphd says:
 * Like this: "In this edit I added info on 563 men I believe Reid has been married to. It was reverted as unsourced. I could not find a source for all of them, but this article in the South African Medical Journal lists the last 408 of them."

.........this makes no sense. Pebbles has been married and divorced 4 times. She is currently in her 5th marriage to Excel Sharieff. If you are saying that is an example of how to add in the men, I would have to edit the article...which I did but you repeatedly reverted.65.205.13.26 (talk) 01:09, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Through the "History" tab at the top of the article, you can find a link to each and every edit made to the page. Give us one of those links and cite a reliable source for the information. As an alternate, add the information to the article with a citation to a reliable source. If you do not provide a reliable source when you add the information, it will be removed. If you do not have a reliable source, do not add the information. Today is November 24. On or about December 1, I will be removing any and all unsourced contentious claims about living people from the article and this talk page. If there is a claim that someone has children or has been married or has misstated their age, consider the information "contentious" (causing or likely to cause an argument; controversial). If there is not a reliable source for the information on the page where the claim is made, consider the information unsourced. Cites in other articles are not cites on this page. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 03:50, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

How about you stop being lazy and find the information youself? And there you go again with that 'contentious claims' bullsh t. THERE IS NOTHING CONTENTIOUS ABOUT HER MARRIAGES AND CHILDREN. 65.205.13.26 (talk) 18:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I had forgotten about this mess. As you wish to include the material, you must supply the sources. "The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia rests with the person who adds or restores material." per WP:BLP. I haven't the time at the moment, I'll probably complete the clean up tonight. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 20:24, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Reverting to an old version
This edit] by 65.205.13.26 reverts to an earlier version of the article without explaining why. It has numerous errors. Long story short, I am reverting the change again and changing the "Her former husband and boss..." section to better reflect the source. As the IP editor in question seems to revert large numbers of changes rather than edit, this might be a problem. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 18:11, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Changes the section heading "Early life" to "Early Life", against our Manual of Style.
 * Changes "...raised her family on the income..." to "...raised her family on he income..."
 * Restores the source Yahoo voices]. This is effectively a forum posting and is not a reliable source per WP:SPS. Further, it adds material based on the unacceptable source.
 * Adds ages to the phrase "George, his 16 year old daughter Jennifer; Perri and her 2 year old daughter Ashley..." contrary to the source cited. Additionally, it is providing otherwise unpublished personal information on children who are incidental to the topic, contrary to WP:BLPPRIVACY.
 * Changes the section heading "Early career" to "Early Career", against our Manual of Style.
 * Changes "1981" to "the early 1980s" when the source cited plainly says 1981.
 * Changes "Her former husband and boss George L.Smith bankrolled her career by putting up $80,000 for her demo tape and music video to 'Mercedes Boy'." to "Her boss...", contrary to... OH MY GOD! This is almost right. The source says "Finding work in an Oakland, Calif., real estate office, Pebbles met contractor George L. Smith, who in 1985 put up $80,000 to bankroll her second assault on the music world. The result was a demo tape and the video for "Mercedes Boy"—a shimmering single about an autoerotic female driver—and a contract with MCA. Pebbles and Smith, who is 20 years her senior, married soon after." They were not yet married, so removing "former husband" is correct. However, the source does not say "boss", "bankrolled her career" is rather strong: he bankrolled the demo tape and video. Why we don't say that this resulted in her contract with MCA is a puzzle.
 * Restored again with the claim "yahoo and its blog are credible." Two problems here: You restored ALL of the errors listed above and no, a blog on Yahoo (not "yahoo's blog") is not a reliable source. "Stephanie Modkins" wrote this. If you'd like, you can start your own "Yahoo voices" blog and tell us that the universe is really a simulation running on a god's cellphone. You cannot, however, then cite that as a reliable source. So who is "Stephanie Modkins"? Well, you can read everything there is to know about her here. I do not see anything included there that indicates she is a reliable source. If you disagree, please take the issue to the Reliable sources/Noticeboard.
 * If you feel there is a reason to restore all of the errors in the edit, please explain. Thanks. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 22:21, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
 * This edit restores all of the problems discussed above.
 * This edit adds a copyrighted album cover as a photo for a living person in violation of WP:NFCC. (Essentially, we cannot use a copyrighted photo of a living person, except in very limited circumstances that do not apply here.)
 * This edit adds unsourced quotes and restores an unsourced husband, again.
 * This edit restores an unsourced contentious claim about a living person (in violation of WP:BLP) concerning a supposed "scandal". It also restores a database search results as a source for another marriage. Search results are not a reliable source (see WP:IRS).
 * This edit adds unsourced info (a full name) for a daughter. As explained with the ages, above, this is a WP:BLP issue.
 * Finally, this edit shows the IP editor has at least read this talk page. Now PLEASE DISCUSS THE ISSUES. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 03:19, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have removed the WP:BLP issues. Please do NOT restore them without achieving consensus that the information is reliably sourced. You may wish to take the issue to the Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Restoring this information with poor sourcing may result in you being blocked from editing Wikipedia.
 * I have also removed the album cover, per WP:NFCC, as explained above. Please do not restore the image without providing a "fair use" rationale on the image page. (Please note that images of living individuals are considered to be replaceable unless it can be demonstrated that the person is a recluse (we're talking Howard Hughes level, not merely celebrities who keep low profiles).)
 * The rest of the problematic material: bad sources, typos, unexplained claims, etc., I am leaving in place for discussion. If no such discussion is forthcoming, I will revert the changes for the reasons outlined above in a few days. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 03:32, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Middle Name
There is a discrepancy with the middle name -- listed as Arnette and Arlette with both sourced. Arnette is the correct middle name. --Csmgacct (talk) 03:03, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


 * How can you tell when both variants are sourced? Huon (talk) 17:47, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * We are working on a website for Reid and have discovered many discrepancies on the web, so I asked her which is correct. Is there something we can provide as proof to get it corrected here? I am careful not to make edits on my own as I understand we could technically be connected to the subject due to the project we are working on.--Csmgacct (talk) 01:23, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * First of all, thank you for your understanding regarding the conflict of interest. At the moment we have People giving "Arnette" and AllMusic going with "Arlette". I don't think any other of our current sources nor those recently removed over the birthdate issue mention the middle name, so we'd need some additional sources backing up the correct spelling in order to conclude that AllMusic got it wrong. Huon (talk) 11:05, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Can her birth certificate be used as the source? Csmgacct (talk) 20:00, 12 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia requires published sources, and WP:BLPPRIMARY explicitly says: "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth [...]". I somehow doubt a third party has published Reid's birth certificate. Huon (talk) 20:42, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
 * If a third party had published Reid's birth certificate, I would be skeptical. I have not been able to find a reliable source which has published the correct middle name other than People. We will keep looking. Thank you for your time and contributions.Csmgacct (talk) 02:58, 13 March 2014 (UTC)


 * According to People Magazine article from 1988, she was born Perri Arlette McKissack.


 * http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20100090,00.html