Talk:Pehlwani

Untitled
Undoubtedly we in Indian subcontinent have a great wrestling tradition since time immemorial. Due to Mahabali Satpal today India has again emerged as a genuine world wrestling power. Quite earlier on we had the invincible Great Gama and excellent genuine wrestlers during his period. Slowly many of these traditional wrestlers gave up wrestling for making money. In fact after the generation of Gama we had many entertainers from the subcontinent like Dara Singh, Jhara Pehalwan, Nasir Bholu, etc. who more often were entertainers. They even kicked! We had some exceptions among traditional wrestlers from the Indian subcontinent like Din Muhammad (PAK), Sudesh Kumar, Prem Nath, Master Chandgi Ram, etc. who went out to wrestle genuinely in real global championships and quite often won. Now again genuine wrestling has returned to India. Hope to see great results in Olympics, World Championships, Asian Championships, David Schulz Memorial, Takhti Cup, etc. etc.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:A180:F700:21B3:248E:F35A:B021 (talk) 03:53, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

This is a ridiculous article and needs to be removed from the database. It mixes up the traditional Persian wrestling ie Pahlavani with its traditional terms of Ustad, Pahlavan and Rustam with Indian traditional wrestling that surely must be different to the Iranian game.

This is an utterly ridiculous article. it lists wrestlers who belong to the WWF, a TV "entertainment" wrestling organization. Many of these supposed great wrestlers are not professional but are just actors. Kennethtennyson 05:10, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I suggest you research your facts first before you try talking about subjects you don't know about. Pehlwani and Pahlavan are one and the same.


 * I dont think so, i have read about Gama, Akram, Nasir Bholoo, they are all real.
 * secondly i think this article name is not suitable as the man who practices pehlwani is call pehlwan, this page enlists pehlwan so this aticle ahould be moved to pehlwan الثاقب (WiseSabre| talk) 06:53, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Dude! Where did you actually "read" these articles? Look up the SHEIK, INoki, all of the other wrestlers on this list.  The SHEIK belongs to the a wrestling entertainment organization.  All of the matches that are here are "staged." Further, it is NPOV because it has statements like " the local hero who never gives up." along with other biased statements.  When we think of wrestling, we think of Greco roman wrestling or judo which is at the olympics, or jujitsu which has competitions that are judged and not "staged" with a predetermined winner.  You're talking about wrestlers who really did not do true competitive wrestling.  Some of these guys are not even Pehlwans in the traditional sense but are "professional ie entertainment" wrestlers who happen to be Indian by ethnicity.  I believe that the great singh is a WWF wrestler.  Kennethtennyson 01:03, 4 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Who is Sheikh?,wikipedia says Antonio Inoki (アントニオ猪木), real name Kanji Inoki (猪木寛至, born 20 February 1943) is a retired Japanese professional wrestler  see Antonio Inoki, and Gama pehlwan he fought in UK and none of his match was staged.read his article

The great singh is not a wwe wrestler but anyways i'll take him off the list in any event.He's actually the father of the WWE wrestler you speak of.

secondly before you go and say anything about Antonio Inoki remember that the man is a pioneer of Mixed Martial Arts and the inventer/originator of shoot style wrestling which later on transitioned to shootfighting and the eventual martial arts boom.

'''and have'nt you seen the contribution of Masakatsu Funaki,Minoru Suzuki,Sotoro Sayayma,Antonio Inoki,Ad Santel,Ed Lewis,Kazushi Sakuraba,Nobuhiko Takada,Akira Maeda in Mixed Martial Arts (real fighting) ??? they were professional wrestlers too.......most of them disiples of antonio inoki learning from him at young age'''

worked as it may be the strength of professional wrestling or the pros should'nt be made a joke out of in this way

'''and the iron shiek was one of the elite in iraninan defence establishment,onetime guard of the shah of iran and an olympian (1972) ......... please get your facts right'''

also it would help if some detailed info regarding Karim Baksh,Rama Murti,Rahim Sultaniwala and Chandra Singh Mudaliwala .......... the historic greats

الثاقب (WiseSabre| talk) 16:23, 4 November 2005 (UTC)


 * look, you still do not get the point. Professional wrestlers are not true wrestlers. they don't compete in the traditional sense that people in greco roman wrestling compete. OF course these guys might have contributed to other forms of fighting and that most of these guys are big, but they are not true fighters. The great GAMA fought against people who were staging fights. Very few of his fights were real. If you actually lived in the US you would understand how ridiculous it is to include professional wrestlers on your list.Kennethtennyson 04:19, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Soory, i don't know much about wrestling.الثاقب &#91;&#91;user:wisesabre&#124;(WiseSabre&#124;]] &#91;&#91;User_talk:wisesabre&#124;talk)]] 14:56, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does this page NOT EXPLAIN how the wrestling is performed? Slightly more concrete things like RULES might be article-worthy. I could be mis-interpreting the goal of wikipedia. Ich 02:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC) The goal actually does vary from reigon to reigon, the general set of rules is given but in some areas the rules blend with the millenia old native martial arts of the reigon. In some parts kicks and choking with legs are allowed, in some parts no grappling below the waist are seen and other parts allow pinfalls (ranging from three to five or more) but no chokes. It's complicated, especially with India involved, which is diversity and vastness itslf. 59.94.96.53 21:30, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment
The paragraph below was written by an anonymous poster in the Wrestling article. If its content is useful, use it in this article. Shawnc 05:19, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

(**Actually "Pahlewani" is a kind of Iranian traditional wrestling style but not Indian at all, and the word means "pertaining to champions, or rather heroes". What's more, the word is Persian and this style dates back to some 2500 years ago (to Zoroastorians era or before). To do this style there are lots of Iranian traditional clubs, called "Zoorkhaneh" _ an old kind of gym_ in which you will find a pit (Gode) for the sportsmen to do special exercises with traditional tools _Meel, Kabbadeh, Takhte-Shena just to name a few and around the pit a row or rows of seats for the enthusiastic audience. There is a highly respected man (Morshed, means master) next to the pit who sits on a chair, he plays a kind of drum, which is put on his lap, and some small bells hanging around him and sings songs about religious figures and old well-known sportsmen to conduct and encourage the sportsmen in the pit (Gode). In some national occasions wrestling competiotions are held with some extra related sports activities to entertain the audience. Originally it has got strong cultural and religious aspects which are considered very respectful among Iranian nation. )

Sushil Kumar of India won the 2008 Beijing Olympics Bronze - 66 Kg Freestyle category. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.246.2.163 (talk) 10:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Correction Request
Danda redirects to Press_up which is depicted as push-ups where as its closer to ashtanga namaskara. Bethak redirects to Squat (exercise).

Please do take a look at this video to get the difference. Vyayam (Dand, Baithak) Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.58.173.69 (talk) 14:58, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Rare photos of Maratha wrestler
Maratha I have good photos of Maratha wrestlers and i am willing to give it for free on wikipedia but i just cant embedded it in. anybody intrested plese contact me at Vishal1976

Indian wrestling
It's already been pointed out on this page many times but I'm going to say it again so someone will take notice. Pehlwani is Persian and NOT Indian. The Mughals brought it over and it got mixed with the local forms of wrestling. I don't know what is the difference between traditional pehlwani and the Indian version but both are noticably different from traditional Indian wrestling. I presume that the confusion came up because the word pehlwan was absorbed into Hindi so many wrestlers are called pehlwans even if they just fight WWE style. But pehlwan doesn't necessarily mean wrestler, it could also be used for any fighter. A separate article about Indian wrestling could use the pictures and some of the information from this article but there are still a lot of corrections to be made.

That wouldn't actually work because this article is about the Indian form of Pehlwani just like Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. I do think that the history section focuses too much on Malla Yuddha instead of Pehlwani. Someone ought to fix that.-Morinae 14:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

mullayuddha is disputed
No where will you find that mulla yuddha is written as a true wrestling martial art. It was taken from an e-mail to a website and one user (freedom skies) has unfortunately stretched it to claim that mulla yuddha came from the religious epics with Bhima practicing mulla yuddha. Alter in his book writes that mullayuddha is a generic term for wrestling. Kennethtennyson 00:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

to vishal or whoever is behind an indian name
first of all, to vishal1947, you oughta be ashamed of your existence you piece of shit, disrespecting your own race, Traitor! because I know what you wrote about your own race before just cause' of wrestling, listen you bastard oh yes cause' it's not Us Indians who are bastards but it's bastards like You who make us look bad. And as a response to Mr. Kennethtennyson, mallayuddha is in fact Indian. it dates back to the Vedic times of which about you may have had studies about as you claimed, you know during the times of Mahabharata, one of major parts of Indian history.

Answer :- Are you the first Test tube baby of the world

Finaly the Truth from Maratha -- Vishal1976
I have posted many images of Hindu / Arya /Indian wrestlers but just got time to read this rediculious discussion about this very article and i want to show, point out the realites about the wrestling and ground leval facts. But important i don't want to insult any one, specially the creator of this article but just want to show the truth. 2) The objection that the WWF wrestling in the world is fake, circus and not worthy to call as real wrestling and those who perform it as wrestler. Yess. I do agree. I have seen those WWF entertienment on cable TV sINCE 1992 and from the begining i was desliking to this Americanus beggares play. But in reality in my surrounding i have observerd great wrestlers and seen how much respect our Maratha society gives to these wrestlers.The traditional Maratha wrestling and wrestler has many sides and aspects , i will discuss it later but any way one can understand it if he is clever.Allthough these Indian wrestler are not successful in international competations such as Olympics , But if you see the ecomomic and weather conditions of India you may find the answer.In our Maratha society wrestiling is a good social title and way of life such as Docters and other professionals.  I use to workout and do exircise when i was in school and college and aimes to earn great body. I never exirsised in traditional Indian mud wrestling gym but in western kind of modern gym and before that some traditional exirsises and other like cricket, boxind etc. I am owner of good body and realy have loved and perpormed workouts so i belive that i have right to say somthing about wrestling. 3) As we can see now that the western world is now accepting the importance of Ayurveda and othe Aryan traditions and properties so in neare feature this Aryan art may see good days ans enriche the humanity.

vandalism at pehlwani
Some western vandalist are deleting images of Maratha wrestlers. do something Vishal1976 Following mothrfucker user is deliting images.

'''User:ButseriouslyfolksFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search I take my editing seriously, and I am always trying to find the truth. Of course, as Carptrash has advised me, Oscar Wilde has pointed out that "the Truth is seldom pure and never simple."'''

As you can see his masters and godfather as Oscar Wilde was a gay, sinister man what fucking ideology carries this baster vandalist.

Fair use rationale for Image:Giant LY.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Mughals, who were Persians of Mongol descent
`Mughals, who were Persians of Mongol descent` are you kidding? since when mughals are persians of mongol descent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.254.140.224 (talk) 16:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

The Mughals were descended from the Mongol army who attached Persia in Genghis Khan's time. They were of Mongol-Turkic descent and kept some aspects of their culture intact. Many Urdu words today are of Mongolian origin. Even the word Mughal means Mongol in Persian. Morinae (talk) 09:56, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Pehlwani and Pahlavani
Why does this article mix information about Mughal pehlwani and Iranian pahlavani when there's already a Varzesh-e Pahlavani article?Morinae (talk) 09:41, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

==Pahlavanis...Indian?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????==

Pahlawan in Persian means "Hero" and its root is from Pahlavi Language. It is Iranian, not Indian!!!!--Lekistan (talk) 01:36, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Page move
I would say that kusti or kushti is the more well-known term in English for Indian wrestling, and in my experience it is also the more commonly used word in Hindi. So why is this article named pehlwani instead of kushti? Morinae (talk) 07:33, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

5th Century/Pre-Aryan migration claim
What is Draeger and Smith's rationale for claiming that Indian wrestling predates the Aryan migration into India? The date given, 5th century BC, is by all accounts nearly a millennium after the migration began (the absolute latest figure I've seen in 13th C. B.C., but others estimate it could have begun as far back as 2500 BC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.247.93.212 (talk) 07:56, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The 5th century date comes from a different source, and simply states that Indian wrestling has been practiced since at least that time. Draeger and Smith actually say Indian wrestling is 5000 years old, as is stated in the malla-yuddha article. Morinae (talk) 07:02, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose that Pahlavani be merged into Pehlwani. I think that is right because: Monfie (talk) 15:49, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) The history of these practices is started from the time that Indians and Persians lived together in Central Asia. After that some moved to India and some to Iran but both of them kept some traditions in common including Pahlavani practices. It is not something that Persians or Indians can claim it is their own. In reverse both Iran and India plus some more countries have their own history and on this issue that can be in this article.
 * 2) pehlwani, pahlevani, pehlawani and pahlavani are same words that is written in different form in English. It is wrong and misleading if we chose one of them for Persian and other for Indian style. If it is really necessary, that I don't think so, to have different articles, Pehlwani in general should discuss about issues in common and then Persian Pehlwani and Indian Pehlwani can be crated for explain specific training and terminology (as well both of them can have own place in main article).
 * 3) Pehlwani practices are going to be globalized. IZSF aims to regulates and standard rules for Kushti and pahlwani sports and organize international festivals and competitions. Bangladesh, country that is in the third place in Indian Pehlwani after India and Pakistan was of the host Asian Championship in 2012.
 * 4) the discussion can not be limited to Iran and India. these practices are popular in many other countries. For example in Afghanistan, they have Indian pehlwani or Persian pahlavani? or we should create Afghan pehlwani?
 * 5) Pahlavani "ورزش باستانی" and Pehlwani are very similar and almost same practices. It is obvious if you search both of them in YouTube and compare.


 * Oppose - It is true that they are nearly the same in name, similar in form, and share a partial common ancestry. However, they are still separate styles with separate histories, different training methods, different terminology (such as names of techniques), and a different dietary regimen (for non-Muslims especially). Of course, such differences could be mentioned within a single article, but I think that's going too far. In fact, there would actually be a stronger basis for merging all the Central Asian/Turkic forms of wrestling (kurash, gulesh, alysh, etc) which are much more closely related to each other than pehlwani and pahlavani. In fact, Southeast Asian folk wrestling is very similar to that of India. This is particularly so of Burmese naban, which is in fact nearly identical to traditional South Asian malla-yuddha. Should the naban article then be merged into malla-yuddha? How far does this go? To my mind, this really just seems like an attempt to "usurp" Indian wrestling based on nothing more than the name. Morinae (talk) 14:50, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose - They they have a common origin, they have merged into separate styles without different history and elements. It's akin to calling Kenpo as Karate or Kung Fu, or MMA as either an extension of just boxing or wrestling. The Scythian 18:37, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * In response to your points..


 * 1) When did Indians and Persians "live together in Central Asia"? Anthropologists have shown that humans first came out of Africa and then dispersed from Central Asia, so in other words you could say that all people "lived together in Central Asia". Besides, there's more than one ethnic group in India. The Indo-Aryans are most likely the group you are thinking of here, and yes they did originate in Central Asia and their culture was closer to that of Persia. But the precursor to pehlwani, malla-yuddha, was practiced by Dravidians in India before the arrival of the Aryans.
 * 2) Your view on the history of pehlwani is rather skewed. The original Indian form of wrestling was not pehlwani but was in fact malla-yuddha. The rules of this style were different from modern pehlwani which is obviously Middle Eastern-derived. Malla-yuddha was later combined with pahlavani by Muslims (particularly the Mughals), thereby creating pehlwani. This has been noted even in the article itself, and is sourced. Therefore, pehlwani and pahlavani are not just different spellings for the same thing, but are different arts which just happen to be similar in the present day due to historical influence.
 * 3) As far as I know, those are two unconnected facts. IZSF is the federation of Persian zurkaneh, but it has no standing over the akhara of India. Bangladesh is in third place for pehlwani, is it not? What does that have to do with pahlavani? Anyway, wrestlers of different styles do compete professionally. A Swedish shwingen wrestler might go up against a Greco-Roman wrestler, or even an Indian pehlwan. This does not make them the same style.
 * 4) I am not so knowledgeable about the Afghan style which is actually called pahlawani. Since most of the country's population today is of Middle Eastern rather than Indian stock, I would guess that it's more similar to Persian pahlavani. I don't know if it's different enough to warrant a separate article, but if not, then it should be combined with whichever style it is more similar to, or has a closer historical connection with. A comparison could be made with the articles for the shamshir, kilij, talwar, and pulwar which also share a common origin but have separate articles.
 * 5) They are similar but not the same. The similarities (such as the use of meels) are due to the Mughal influence beginning only in the 17th century. And even with the similarity, the two styles are still different enough that separate articles would be entirely possible. You yourself aknowledged this when you said there could be sections for specific aspects of Indian and Persian wrestling. I think in such a case, having to constantly mention the country in question is rather inconvenient, especially when it could be easily resolved by having separate articles. Morinae (talk) 12:31, 6 October 2013 (UTC)


 * having similar practices is because of living together in ancient era or it just turn to Mughal empire needs more discussion in references, but I think it is not the case. Indeed in one hand practices are very similar, on the other hand, they have several unique specifications. For example, dietary regimen is important in Indian version but there is nothing about food in Persian version. The rhythm and song and music is important in Persian version and it is not exist in Indian version. According to this facts we have two options: 1- We have a main article that is about this practice in general and common things. Plus, elaborating Persian and Indian specifications in that article or separate articles. 2- Suppose they are totally different and no need to be in same article. If final decision is 2, I will move text, templates, and some links to other languages from here to Pahlavani article. But what is benefit of that? Both pahlavani and pehlwani are almost unknown practices to world. If it is presented as a practice that is popular in many countries, no lie it indeed is, we can be hopeful that it is more presented to the world. IZSF never claimed it is for Persians or Muslim version of this sport. In reverse, it focus on internationalization of this old sport. I am not sure they are dreaming or not, but they compare pahlavani with judo, traditional Japanese sport that was the first Asian sport that included in Olympic games.Monfie (talk) 12:45, 7 October 2013 (UTC)


 * As I said before, Indians and Persians are not the same race nor have they "lived together in the ancient era". If this is some original research of yours, it contradicts conventional history. India's indigenous Dravidian peoples, who first practiced malla-yuddha, have nothing to do with the Irani people. Contrary to stereotypes, India, Bangladesh and Pakistan are not part of the Middle Eastern cultural sphere. The Taj Mahal is not an example of Indian architecture. Hindi/Urdu words like bazaar (market) and shah (king) are not originally Indian. Even the so-called "Indian clubs" are not Indian. All these things were brought through the Persianate influence of the 17th-century Mughals, and in some cases through 13th century Muslim conquerors. They are not evidence of some common origin of the Indian and Iranian people. This is not simply an opinion of mine, it is accepted as historical fact in any written source, including the citations given in this and other articles.
 * If the "Indians" you refer to are the Indo-Aryans, then you would also have to look for similarities among other Indo-Europeans. Is German wrestling a link to a common Central Asian past as well? Even if you are trying to use the Aryan connection to support your theory, you still fail to address India's pre-Aryan inhabitants who first practiced the Indian form of wrestling. Even looking at the Indo-Aryans, your idea makes no sense. If pehlwani and pahlavani are connected in remote antiquity, their similarity should date back to ancient times. It does not. Pehlwani absolutely did not exist prior to the Mughal invasion. The word simply did not exist. But indigenous malla-yuddha was recorded. It was recorded in the medieval Malla Purana. It was mentioned in the ancient Hindu epics. And in case you're wondering, malla-yuddha is a Sanskrit word, from an Aryan language. Surely if these Aryans had been practicing the same art as the Persians and Parthians, they would have called it pehlwani in ancient times.
 * Putting historical inaccuracies aside, I think the articles should remain separate simply because they are different arts. That is the "benefit" in itself. The wikipedia is meant to be an encyclopedia, not a place to promote, popularize or give more exposure to subject matter. I understand your point of view on this. The silat article was split into pencak silat and silat Melayu for no reason other than nationalism. Pahlavani is traditionally practiced in several Middle Eastern countries despite variant spellings and minor differences in their practices. It would make perfect sense to merge, for example, Afghan pahlawani (which currently has no article here) with pahlavani. But pehlwani is not one of these. As a sourced sentence in the article says, pehlwani is a synthesis of malla-yuddha and pahlavani. Pehlwani does not have the link to Sufism, the emphasis on music, the whirling dervish spinning, none of these components which pahalavani and every single one of its Middle Eastern variants has. Pehlwani's dietary regimen and its monotonous emphasis on individual techniques and their linkage all point to its predecessor, malla-yuddha. This is not a case of small differences between two disciplines of a single system; this is a mark of being from an entirely different family tree despite one being influnced by another. That is the reason why, in my opinion, the articles should not be merged. Morinae (talk) 16:32, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

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