Talk:Peja

Requested move 18 August 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved. By strength of the arguments presented, there is consensus for this name change. – bradv  🍁  19:33, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

– Hi. I have never edited on Wikipedia, so excuse any lack of familiarity with the common practices in place in this community. I take note of the previous arguments against changing the name of this page, which hinge on the claim that Peć is more common in English usage. Some users have used Google results to claim this, however this seems to produce inconclusive results, sometimes skewing to one side, sometimes to another.
 * Peć → Peja
 * Peja → Peja (disambiguation)

In any case, it seems to me there are at least six good reasons to change the page name to Peja.

1) All other major cities in Kosovo are titled by their Albanian names, except Pristina. Gjakova, Ferizaj, Gjilan are in Albanian. Of course, Peć sees more English usage than Đakovica, Uroševac and Gnjilane, which is an argument against this reasoning. However, one should consider the matter of naming consistency across the territory of Kosovo.

2) The municipal government English language website, as well as documents issued from the municipality in English, all call the city either Pejë or Peja, and the Municipality either the Municipality of Pejë or the Municipality of Peja. As the article states, it is about the municipality. Municipal website: https://kk.rks-gov.net/peje/en/ . Example document issued by the municipality https://kk.rks-gov.net/peje/wp-content/uploads/sites/24/2020/08/B05-Njoftim-per-Kontrat-2-1-1-1.pdf . (See p. 2, which refers to the "Municipality of Peja".) I realize some have argued that official names do not constitute common usage. However, since there is no clear consensus, for example in Google results, as to which name is more commonly used in English, it makes more sense to take official names into account, as well as common practice with other Kosovar cities.

3) As many have pointed out, the use of diacritics is not preferred by English speakers. This has the effect that if one searches "Pec" (without the ć), one is referred to a disambiguation page. Same goes for "Pejë", "Peje" or "Peja". Therefore, for English speakers (who presumably do not have access to the letter ć or ë on their keyboards, all possible spellings currently lead to a disambiguation page. This could be confusing to many users, and is clearly not desirable. To avoid this, Peja is the most neutral and easily typed English spelling.

4) For what it's worth, most tourist websites and tourist materials for the city, seem to refer to it as Peja.

5) Some have argued that since the Germany page is not titled Deutschland, and the Belgrade is not titled Beograd, then this page should also not be called Peja, just because it is official. However the first example, Germany, is a native English exonym for the country, and is not comparable to Peć, which is the Serbian name for the city, adopted into English after the Balkan Wars. Prior to this the English name was based on the Turkish name for the city, Ipek. . As for Belgrade, this name has been in English usage and is undisputed, while the case of Peja/Pejë v. Peć is both disputed and there is no clear preference in English usage. Therefore, the argument that official usage (in English language municipal documents, for example) is irrelevant, is strange. Notwithstanding the usage of Pejë/Peja by, as an example, Britannica, because there is no clear English language preference, the official usage of the municipality (which this page is about) should be considered, and would be most neutral.

6) It is used, for example, by the Encyclopædia Britannica, which on the naming convention page , is listed as a sources for "widely accepted names".

– Best regards. Leokr (talk) 14:40, 18 August 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 16:26, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 15:27, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment whatever the consensus is here, it should probably be extended to District of Peć as well to remain consistent.-- Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 21:16, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose This question was discussed in details not that long ago.  Sadkσ  (talk is cheap)  22:32, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per detailed nomination and per convincing references. This request concerns a location that does not have an English exonym (thus leaving English speakers with either the Serbian name, Peć [with a Serbian diacritic, which would only be intuitive to use for a place with a Serbian-speaking population] or the Albanian name, Peja [without a diacritic]), in an Albanian-speaking entity which is recognized by 101 UN members, including the entire English-speaking world (List of states with limited recognition). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:46, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose Google Trends clearly demonstrates that Pec (without the diacritic, including in Serbia) has been most commonly used globally from as far back as 2004, outpacing Peja by a factor of 8 to 1. In the United States, Pec is more commonly used by a factor of 7 to 1.   We have a similar situation in the UK.  If broken down by region, Pec is used more often in all the Western countries. The only country where Peja is used more frequently is Poland (not an English-speaking country).
 * It is important to note that the Peja results are artificially inflated by mentions of the basketball player Peja Stojaković. Otherwise, they would be even lower than they are. There are two villages in the Czech Republic, both with around 300 inhabitants, called Peč and Pec. Given their small size, I doubt they have seriously affected global trends in favour of Pec over the past 16 years. Going by WP:COMMONNAME, this renaming proposal is baseless. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 03:06, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * @Amanuensis Balkanicus. The Google Trends reference is both inconclusive and misleading. Pec (w/o) diacritic leads to thousands of companies and organizations around the world, for example the Pakistani Engineering Coorporation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PEC. Since Google statistics are inconclusive, and do not constitute common use by reputable sources, it is non-productive to reference them here.


 * If you add the diacritic, the results are much lower. But this does not mean it argues for changing the name of the Wikipedia page, since Google results are inconclusive and difficult to interpret. Please reference and see my above arguments instead.


 * Thank you. Leokr (talk) 04:50, 19 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose Per above and WP:COMMONNAME StellarHalo (talk) 05:25, 19 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Support per WP:COMMONNAME. On Google scholar: Peja+Kosovo 2,940 results Peć+Kosovo 1,940 results. But what should be established here is what is the name used in everyday life (what the COMMONNAME policy tries reflect) if you have any sort of activity that is related to this town. In practice, every travel guide, hotel booking service and any other service uses Peja/Pejë for this town. If even Brittanica with its very slow methodology of adaptation to changes in the real world has opted for Pejë (the indefinite form of Peja), I'm sure that wikipedia can finally to Peja (as over 95% of its citizens call their town). Despite !vote attempts to keep a status quo that is far removed from real life, wikipedia has moved to Gjakova (instead of Đakovica), Ferizaj (instead of Uroševac), Gjilan (instead of Gnjilane) for the same reasons. Time to do the same here.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:42, 19 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. Iamawesomeautomatic (talk) 14:52 PM 19 August 2020(UTC)


 * Oppose, not again with this nonsense. A unsuccessful move request was closed exactly a year ago. It is not hard to see why. Google Books results for "Pec+Kosovo": 13,000, for "Peja+Kosovo": 6,000 , for "Peje+Kosovo": 2000 . Likely the reason for this is that the town's main claim to fame is the Patriarchate of Pec, which will likely never be referred to as the Patriarchate of Peja for obvious reasons. Contra Maleschreiber, many place names in kosovo have not been moved from their Serbian spelling (Mitrovica, Pristina, Gracanica, Podujevo, Orahovac, Glogovac, Suva Reka, Podujevo, etc.). The argument "this is what the inhabitants call it" is not policy based. It only matters what reliable English language sources call it. In this case, it is very unlikely the name will ever change, due to the Patriarchate. Also, the OP, only has 5 contribs , all starting August 18, though the account was created in 2017. Almost certainly a sleeper account of one of the many banned users in this topic area. Needs looking into. Khirurg (talk) 16:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi . Did you have an argument against this? I did see the move request from 2019, but I did not feel that the closing reasoning was very thought out, so I wanted to bring this up for discussion again. As for my account history, I made this account in 2017 to add a custom font to my Wikipedia layout, to experiment with the UI. Although I have not contributed, I do not see what the problem is. My arguments for the move are sincere and written in a civil tone. It is impertinent to show such a lack of good faith in the argument's of others. I hope that whoever closes this request will consider whether the opposition brings any new and/or convincing argument to light, and that opponents are reviewing the case somewhat impartially. We are not trying to find out which English name for the city is more palatable for Serbs or Albanians, but what will be more useful and intuitive for English speakers.
 * Best regards. Leokr (talk) 16:47 PM 19 August 2020(UTC)
 * How about you cut the bs and tell us the name of your previous account? Khirurg (talk) 00:27, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Khirurg, we don't have to take this kind of tone. Leokr will reply to you. ArbDardh (talk) 01:06, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Kind of a weird answer. How are you so sure? Are you him? Khirurg (talk) 03:57, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I think I can assure you I'm not! No, I just think it's logical enough to assume they would. I don't see why not. My main point was to not start using phrases such as bs. We don't need them to sort this debate out. ArbDardh (talk) 11:45, 21 August 2020 (UTC)ArbDardh
 * I can see that has edited their opposition to include arguments about placenames in Kosovo that use Serbian forms. I will address these. As far as Gračanica goes, it is a majority Serb community, so it makes sense that the Serbian version of the name is still more common in English. Along with Podujevo/Podujeva, Orahovac/Rahovec, Glogovac/Gllogoc and Suva Reka/Suhareka, Gračanica are very rural, small and (for most English speakers interested in the region) irrelevant. As far as major towns go, the only one with a non-Albanian form common in English is, as you mention, Pristina. However, this usage is highly established and also used in official English language documents in Kosovo. Meanwhile, Mitrovica, as you probably know, is spelled the same in both Serbian and Albanian.
 * As far as the Google results go, these arguments are very stale. The results are inconclusive, and the geographic naming conventions policy refers to common usage by reputable/widely accepted sources, not any sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names).
 * I also am concerned about the tone of your replies. You rudely asked about my account history, as if it has any bearing on the arguments, yet I answered. If you do not believe my reason for creating a Wikipedia account in 2017, then that is your prerogative, but please do not attack other users such as in this way.
 * I must say the seemingly ethnic fault lines and political interest in the two sides of this discussion makes me feel distraught. I would have hoped for a more constructive discussion.
 * Kind regards, Leokr (talk) 12:29, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * any editor is welcome in wikipedia regardless of the number of their edits and if anyone suspects you to be any other editor, they can report you. But they can't casually link you to other editors (WP:ASPERSION) outside the context of an actual report.--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:54, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Support - I have yet to come across a convincing argument why it should remain as Peć. On the basis of the inconclusive Google results, as proposes, our main priority should indeed be finding the most convenient, reasonable name. Therefore, coupled with the recent changes of Đakovica to Gjakova, Gnjilane to Gjilan, and others as mentioned, it only seems logical to change Peć as as well. Although Peć may not be falling out of use, this is not to say it is still the most fitting. User:ArbDardh (talk) 17:05, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per ArbDardh's rationale. N.Hoxha (talk) 20:18, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Side comment: if you remove the results that are about the Patriarchate of Peć, the gap in modern use between Peja/Pejë and Peć/Pec increases even more. That's a very normal phenomenon and should not be politicized as sadly happens usually. Name use reflects the conditions of its time. Wikipedia should at the very least be as close to the movement of time as Brittanica, a tertiary source which has minimal input from outside editors. --Maleschreiber (talk) 22:19, 19 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Support - honestly, uses of "Pec" and "Peja" in English are both inflated by things like "check out my pec muscles" and "I hated Peja when he played in Sacramento". So the proposer's rationale holds. Red   Slash  03:05, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose Per arguments given by Amanuensis Balkanicus. --Soundwaweserb (talk) 10:42, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose per previous arguments and discussions. You shouldn't change name of the city just because its name is traditionally Serbian. — Вукан Ц (talk) 10:52, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Side comment this account !voted here in its 12th edit just 10 minutes after another account that is not particularly active in English wikipedia. It's obvious what is happening and will keep happening but these accounts should know that "its name is traditionally Serbian" is not an argument or policy in wikipedia and with such actions they're only showing how necessary it is for the whole community to be involved in order to stop these attempts and allow the community to decide freely.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:04, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * What's even more obvious is that the account that started this move request has all of 10 contribs, all from August 18. But that doesn't seem to bother you. Khirurg (talk) 00:34, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * No, it doesn't bother me because one editor who starts a move discussion, can't influence its result. You can file a report at SPI if you have any suspicions about a returning editor. Massive off-wiki canvassing and campaigning on the other hand undermine community decision making.--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:54, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, except if the socking was on the other side, you wouldn't be saying that. And if you think there is "massive off wiki canvassing", you should file a report at WP:ANI instead of railing about conspiracies on the talkpage. Khirurg (talk) 02:14, 22 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Support I see no reason why this city should be called Peć. If Peja is an official name of the city then we must respect that. Mikola22 (talk) 12:32, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose Per Sadko. --FriedrickMILBarbarossa (talk) 13:50, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * "per Sadko" refers to the comment "This question was discussed in details not that long ago". Neither is an argument of course, nor is 2018 when this was last discussed with almost no actual debate, "not that long ago". The 30 edits of the above account in all of 2020 in English wikipedia require no further analysis.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:00, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * What requires "no further analysis" are the total 10 contribs from the OP . Khirurg (talk) 00:34, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It is. Stop bashing other editors. Arguments were laid out during that debate and nothing signifacnt has changes in all this time. The idea here is to achieve the wanted result through agressive pushing and team-tagging, while putting labels on editors who are opposed and accusing them of the similiar sort of behaviour. Means and instruments should be chosen in RL and on Wiki both. Not to mention that the editor you want to bash and label is an admin and a senior editor who trumps anything you have done during your stay on the project. x  Sadkσ  (talk is cheap)  15:19, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This is the English wikipedia, not the Serbian wikipedia/wikiquote - and whether someone is an admin there is irrelevant to our discussion or their editing here. Arguments still have to be presented and be judged based on their content which is very lacking from those who !oppose the move. The canvass issues are self-explanatory, any comment is redundant. Other editors can judge the depth of the discussion of the previous Talk:Peć/Archive_2 move request. What stands out among the few who participated is that someone even argued in 2018 that it shouldn't be moved because it had already been discussed in 2015. It highlights that the response "we've discussed it before" is not an argument, but a deflection from the burden of having an argument.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:39, 20 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose This name appears more often in sources. (WP:COMMONNAME) Тhe trend of simultaneous pressure on Balkan topics and nationalist WP:POVPUSH is very worrying. It is important to discuss politely and respect policies. (WP:NOTDEM) The most recognizable events and sites in the city are associated with the name Peć. Most importantly, World Heritage Site: Patriarchal Monastery of Peć.--WEBDuB (talk) 15:53, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * (8 March 1999: The Serbian Run District Court in Peja convicted the following for "hostile activity" and "terrorism"). Information from Council for the Defence of Human Rights and Freedoms - PHDN Mikola22 (talk) 19:07, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * A lot of the opposition to this move seems to come from Serbs or those who make a lot of edits about Serbian topics. I too, like @WEBDuB, am worried about POV pushing. A lot of the opposition of this move also speak very respectlessly and little consideration for nuance in argument when addressing their opponents in opinion. I take note of the use of the word "non-sense", as an example. It is important to consider all arguments, as I did with the arguments from previous requests before I made this request. I addressed the concerns of those who worried English common use would be harmed, for example. Meanwhile, the opposition seems stuck on that line of argument, and seem unable to address any of the reasons from myself and other supporters have pertinently provided. They then claim we are nationalists for giving clear and new reasons. This is an unacceptably low level of discourse by the opposition. I sincerely hope that some of you will be able to formulate some good reasons of opposition, when I have given six good reasons in support, without reference to the inconclusive Google data (which both sides claim), and without appeal to national interest, but to the best interest of the English-language Wikipedia user.


 * Best regards. Leokr (talk) 16:42, 20 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose per above what Khirurg, Sadko and others said. Peervalaa (talk) 09:39, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose poor arguments provided and google hits are overwhelmingly against this.Alexikoua (talk) 22:40, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Support I think we should be careful not to overlook the arguments because of some people reacting emotionally. So far I cannot see a single argument against the move, other than "it has historically been so" and google hits. Both have already been refuted quite convincingly by senior users in the current discussion.Uniacademic (talk) 12:24, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
 * That is not true, actually, and your comment is just empty vote without any proper argument. -- Ąnαșταη ( ταlκ ) 19:51, 27 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Support per WP:COMMONNAME. Bes-ART Talk  22:41, 22 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose How many times do we need to have the same discussion? Just look at the arguments presented in the previous debates. Google hits isn't a reliable indicator that one name is more common than another. --Aca (talk) 10:33, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , I don't think that's a valid reason to oppose the move. The discussion has been brought up again because, simply, the issue isn't exactly finished, and I think did bring up some new points in his argument. It's too easy to not give these a go just because it's "the same discussion". ArbDardh (talk) 11:13, 23 August 2020 (UTC)ArbDardh


 * Oppose - There is no English language name of Peć. The English language sources predominantly use the original Slavic name - Peć, the name Slavs gave to this place when they populated the area in 6th century. The Albanian language neologism Peja/Pejë entered the sources for the first time about 100 years ago. It is important to bear in mind that this place is subject of larger attention of English language sources mostly because of two related topics: the Patriarchate of Peć and NATO bombing of Yugoslavia and because of that more or less, all English sources use the original - Peć version when they refer to Peć. The Albanian language neologism is a recent phenomenon, also pushed in English language general sources published by Kosovo/Albanian institutions within the campaign of Albanisation of names. Still, it is far from prevailing in English language specialized sources, and I doubt it will ever prevail having in mind the above-presented arguments. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:57, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * A neologism is a newly constructed term, Peja is just the name Albanians use for this settlement since the Middle Ages. When and how it was written (you're also wrong about that - but it's unrelated to our discussion) is a factor independent of the language itself. I think that you need to familiarize yourself with wikpedia's WP:COMMONNAME. The editor who started the discussion makes a very good case about current use in bibliography, including the most reputable encyclopedia in the 20th and 21st centuries, Brittanica. You're not disproving his arguments by putting forward a fringe narrative about "Albanisation of names".--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:19, 23 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Support I was a bit unsure, but after following the discussion for a weak, I am now entirely convinced that the move is the right thing to do. While GB search does not lead to a clear conclusion over which name is the most likely to suit readers that seek to get information, other things should be taken into account. This is a (small) settlement in a small Balkan country, so most people are likely to search info on it due to being its citizens who live in English-speaking countries (they are almost all Albanians) or due to being tourists (who tend to seek info in line with names used in official capacity by the country and used by local people). Most of them will come to search the city on Wikipedia due to real life reasons, not because they will make a prior search on GoogleBooks or GoogleScholar. So it is beyond any reasonable doubt that "Peja" is more suitable than "Peć" is. "Peja" is the only name that is in line with all the five criteria described by WP:COMMONNAME. Unlike "Peć", "Peja" follows the rationale of the Consistency criterion, ie "The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles" -- indeed, all major Kosovo cities have been moved to their "Albanian" names, as opposed to keeping the "Serbian" names. The last, but most meaningful argument, is that if we remove all !votes from the usual Balkan accounts that keep opposing each other here or there, the non-Balkan !votes are 4 vs 1 in support of the move. And they seem to be native English speakers. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:20, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note to the closing editor As we know, in such cases consensus is determined by the way how arguments stand against Wiki policies, not just by counting !votes. Such Balkan discussions have for years been damaged by canvassing etc. The most recent case: other editors have expressed concerns about canvassing, as lately is every discussion perceived as a "voting process", certain editors on srwiki who rarely edit on enwiki, appear and !vote the same way. Some of them have made blind reverts too here or there without any tp participation etc. Of course this does not mean that editors from srwiki or sqwiki are not welcome to participate here and give their opinion, but in any case the consensus building process should not be held hostage to blind "votes" by any side. As a matter of fact, only four editors (Ortizesp, Iamawesomeautomatic, StellarHalo, Red Slash and Roman Spinner) that have participated in this discussion so far, are not Balkan-focused. More input from non-Balkan editors would be welcome. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:20, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * And the same work also for certain editors from sq wiki who from time to time invite offwiki other albanian editors in order to use wikipedia as their political propaganda tool. Therefor this attempts of changing commonname of articles into albanian ones with attempts to present those as english. Not going to pass this time... -- Ąnαșταη ( ταlκ ) 19:51, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * User:Cinderella157 actually makes a good point, maybe the best argument so far in a very long list of such Kosovo RM discussions throughout the years. WP:NCPLACE says that : one solution is to follow English usage where it can be determined, and to adopt the name used by the linguistic majority where English usage is indecisive. In this case, English results are obviously indecisive. GB search does not lead to a clear conclusion. There are several untrue claims: that "Peja" was not used during the war by English-language sources (check online, it was used), the settlement is mostly known due to the Patriarchate (it is not, the very majority of online sources that mention the settlement do not even mention the Patriarchate), and that Peja/Pec are both equal in official terms (not so, English-speaking countries --including the US, the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand-- recognize as offical the documents of the government of Kosovo, that for ethnic reasons prefers and uses the Albanian name Peja). Ktrimi991 (talk) 11:08, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Support move of the disambiguation page regardless of the choice of name for the city. If the city is not moved as well, Peja should redirect to it as a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT. Neutral on the move of the city beyond that point. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:50, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per proposer's rationale, and I agree with the good analyzis that user:Cinderella157 reported below by pointing out the relevant Wikipedia policies. – Βατο (talk) 22:11, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Support While GB results for both names are close to each other, people search info offline also. In that regard, names used by local people and official institutions tends to be preferred. Hence, one is more likely to come and search on Wikipedia "Peja" rather than "Pec". Also, readers can mistake Kosovo's Pec for places in Czechia and Hungary, and Peja can prevent that from happening. Better to avoid misleading our readers. Sadsadas (talk) 23:42, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose per Khirurg, Sadko, and specially per Antidiskriminator. Common name is not official name, and that is not relevan as both name are official, but the one established in history and contemporary sources combined is onlY one that matters. Therefor having in mind that historical presence of the name Peć is overwhelming, it is obvious that commonname, the most important part we follow is not changed from Peć. Maybe in one point in history it may be so, but for now it is not. -- Ąnαșταη ( ταlκ ) 19:51, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * put forward some very good arguments which are based on the way policy functions, unlike the comment of the above account who is not an active editor in English wikipedia and basically made the same unsubstantiated (in terms of policy, use of the names in bibliography) argument in 3 different move discussions (within 4 minutes) in Kosovo-related     articles.  by the majoriAnother one of those instances which other editors have already noticed about participation in this move discussion.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:27, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It would be nice not to lie and mislead. I opened account in 2013, unlike most of support editors, including you. Many users cited google hits, from books and search, all of those are google hits. The question of sources are more important then number of hits, as most of the books mentioned are published by either RoK or in Albanian language. So please, stop with false misrepresentation of users whose comments fail your WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Also, stop WP:STAKING other users and their edits, that is rude and false representation. -- Ąnαșταη ( ταlκ ) 08:42, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * It has been clarified but I'll say it again: both names are not equally co-official. As everywhere in Europe where minority languages exist, Serbian is used as official within the context of the minority rights of the Serb community in the few villages it is found. But it is not the official language used in the municipal services or any other context. The name used in almost all services of this town is Peja because that is the name which over 90% its population use to refer to their hometown.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:53, 27 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Peć was known historically and traditionally by that name (Peć). If we have to change Peć into Peja or anything else, then we gotta make sure the city is widely known as such. Right now, this isn't the case in the English world. Also, Google results and historical sources do not confirm that indeed Peja is the WP:COMMONNAME. (Maybe in the future it will, but not yet!). Also to those arguments above about official name being Peja, I shall remind them that this is not how Wikipedia works. Per WP:COMMONMNAME: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used." and yet Peja doesn't meet these criteria. I recommend that Peć's case is treated carefully also due to the politically complicated situation in Kosovo and the sensitive ethnic relations between Serbs and Albanians of the country Peć it is located to, which for us the Wiki editors is one more reason to stick with Wikipedia's rules and general practices for renaming city articles. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 23:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The town has actually been historically known by the Ottoman Turkish name Ipek because for most of its history, it has been an Ottoman town which actually developed in the Ottoman era. Peć is the name of a small settlement on top of which the town developed. Now, neither this, nor a political argument about "sensitive ethnic relations" affect how titles are decided in wikipedia. It's surprising that anyone would even refer to "sensitive ethnic relations between Albanians and Serbs" in order to argue for the Serbian-variant of the name of a town, where 90%+ are Albanians and there are very few Serbs who actually live there.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose See WP:COMMONNAME. Just look Serbian Patriarchate of Peć, 14 centry. And before that, you can see older sources in book of Konstantin Jireček - "History of Serbs I" (1911),  where is Peć, not Peja. Also i agree with Maleschreiber, Peć was known historically and traditionally by that name (Peć). --MareBG (talk) 11:20, 29 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Strong support - buckle up, here's come a revelation to every single participant in this debate so far - debate that will never end, and it shouldn't until we all go to TP of relevant policies, and resolve the issue of bilingual geo naming, vis-a-vis title choice, by setting an additional or new one - the town has one, and one "official" name only! It is written Peja in Albanian, and Peć in Serbo-Croatian. I assume that in Kosovo, at this time, Albanian is the only official language, with Serbian being language of Serbian minority, and how is this regulated in country's constitution and laws I do not know, but
 *  (* Revised entry:)  So, nothing has changed in that regard in at least last five hundred years, while the official languages of Kosovo since independence remain both Albanian and Serbian, which means that nothing has changed in that department neither, so I assume it's mandated that at least in places with significant Serb population bilingual documents, signs, etc. are used.
 * I noticed that nobody actually talks about the problem in these terms - one official name, two official languages, nothing has changed since independence, except that 90-95% of the population speaks Albanian, and that this fact, together with Kosovo now being independent state, reflect in reality as Albanian eventually gained primacy over Serbian, and until we get an option of writing bilingual titles in the project we should respect this last point. (End of revised entry) 
 * Further, Google is of no relevance, unless you set search engine to custom date threshold at 2006-present (or whatever is the year of Kosovo independence), so that result show which language version of the town's name is used since that particular year. Reason for this is that Kosovo was part of the South Slavic world, as part of various Yugoslav states, for nearly hundred years, with Serbo-Croatian language vs. Albanian in clear advantage and with nearly 15 million speakers vs. little over 1 million Albanian speakers.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  19:30, 28 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Support per 's useful analysis. --Calthinus (talk) 07:07, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * could you move your comments to the main discussion, so that all !support/!oppose are in the same section?--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:26, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
 * gotta run feel free to move mine. --Calthinus (talk) 18:32, 29 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Support per nominator and --Ernies73 (talk) 11:48, 1 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Strong Support — Peja is the official most neutral name of the city, we have to respect that.--Lorik17 (talk) 23:20, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * This is not the argument. This means nothing, its most neutral for you, but for anyone else its not, so this comment doesn't mean anthing else but a !vote. -- Ąnαșταη ( ταlκ ) 16:47, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * could you move your comment to the proper move discussion?--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:21, 8 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I opposed it before and nothing has changed, so why not. This is not a large or important place. It isn't Kiev. But it has significance in history mainly under the Serbian name, as attested by UNESCO. For some Basque places, we use double nams (e.g., Ayala/Aiara) and ugly as it is I wouldn't oppose it here. Problem is, it would get way out of hand in the Balkans. Srnec (talk) 13:06, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Arbitrary break
Comment by closer of previous move request My close explicitly stated that there was no prejudice to a further RM but with the implied condition that it should not simply be a rehash of what has occurred before. Unfortunately, it largely is.

My understanding of the issue herein is that, the official name of the place has changed since independence of Kosovo and that the name of the article should reflect this, with various arguments being made for and against the move.

The guidance to consider in determining the appropriate article title is: WP:AT, WP:COMMONNAME as part of WP:AT, WP:OFFICIALNAMES, WP:NCPLACE and WP:NAMECHANGES. The most pertinant guidance from these are as follows: As there has been a change of the official name, from WP:NAMECHANGES: ... we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change. From WP:COMMONNAME: Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) .... Considering WP:COMMONNAME more closely, it is not sufficient that the sources are written in English but they are also independent - this precludes authors with ethnic ties to the region. Also, inherent in the phrase "a significant majority", there must be a sufficient corpus of sources meeting the criteria for such a determination to be made. Where there is not a sufficient corpus to assert a common English name, the guidance is to defer to the official name - see WP:NCPLACE etc.

In considering the evidence, a simple google search is of limited value. It does not discern whether a "hit" meets the criteria or even if the "hit" is on-topic versus other uses. Google books is more likely to return "reliable" sources but simple gross counts donot resolve whether all of the criteria are being met. In my close of the previous RM I made reference to the observation by : ... (let's be real) neither name sees any real usage in English .... While this comment hits the nail on the head, it was not sufficiently developed (with enough weight) to carry the move. Scanning the evidence from Google Scholar (at the time) indicated that a large proportion of the hits had strong national/ethnic ties to the locallity and should be excluded on the basis of independence (ie, they were not sufficiently at arms length from the subject).

Most recently, I have looked at the evidence from google books but limited the search by time to either the last 10 or last 20 years: "Pec+Kosovo" (last 10 - 1910) (last 20 - 5920), "Peja+Kosovo" (last 10 - 2810), (last 20 - 5010). Limiting the search by date is consistent with WP:NAMECHANGES. These raw numbers may be a little misleading though. Scanning through the pages for each search, they quickly run out of hits - after about five pages for each of the 10 year searches and 10 (for Peja) to 15 (for Pec) for the 20 year searches. There is then the matter of determining if all of the hits meet the criteria (independent, reliable English-language sources) and are relevant to the subject (ie not a false hit). The raw data suggests that "Pec" does not meet the criteria of a "significant majority" to be the WP:COMMONNAME. The results also indicate that either name is not all that "common". Both observations tend toward adopting the official name in this case. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 02:44, 25 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Addendum: WP:NCPLACE (at general guidelines) states: When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This will often be a local name, or one of them; but not always. If the place does not exist anymore, or the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used. If neither of these English names exist, the modern official name (in articles dealing with the present) or the modern local historical name (in articles dealing with a specific period) should be used. At WP:WIAN (a following section) it is also suggested to consult [current] disinterested, authoritative reference works such as Encyclopædia Britannica (already cited by the OP). There are other sources suggested, though access will be an issue.  Out of interest, I consulted Google Maps, which gives the Latinised name as "Peja". Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 10:53, 27 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Isn't it the case that onus for the name change is on the proposed new name? In other words, for the move to occur, the new name would have to be the "significant majority", and if both names are roughly equally common (as appears to be the case here), the current name stays per status quo? Khirurg (talk) 04:36, 27 August 2020 (UTC)


 * , I believe you are possibly conflating two quite separate matters. "Significant majority" is quoted from WP:COMMONNAME, within WP:AT.  WP:AT places no such onus. Please quote the relevant section if you disagree.  However, when closing a move discussion, a closer may find there is "no consensus" (ie no clear outcome for either name per WP:NOCON), the status quo will be maintained.  I would also link WP:NOTDEM and WP:NCH.  Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 10:09, 27 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment -
 * Peć is also official name. The sovereignty of Kosovo is disputed, with more than half of countries with about 3/4 of world population having position that it belongs to Serbia. For them the official name is Peć.
 * Besides, I think this argument presented at this RfM also somewhat nail on the head - I contend that the current name is better known to people in general for precisely two reasons, the first is the notability of such establishments as the Patriarch of Peć which far outweighs fixed English titles using the alternative title such as the short-lived League of Peja. The second (and in my mind clinching argument) is that Peć was widely used when the town came to prominence among today's English-speaking community which was during the NATO conflict of 1999: see link. Since then, reference to Peja has featured in no major headlines, only minor[5], and even then there is mention of it being called Peć. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:20, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * gave a good overview of the arguments and I agree with them. Peć is not an equally official name, it is co-official in the context of existing Serb communities (~2%) and their right to receive public services also in their language in the 3 villages they live in. But that is not an argument against the use of the official name of the municipality. In many municipalities throughout Europe, a toponym related to linguistic minorities is also recognized as co-official in the context of minority rights - but that doesn't mean that it is actually used as an official language to any meaningful extent which would justify article titles to be changed in wikipedia. The Patriarchate of Peć is an unrelated article. I don't know how many people who are not interested in Serbian Orthodoxy search for it, but it is irrelevant to this move discussion.
 * What you're basically saying is that because China doesn't recognize Kosovo, wikipedia shouldn't change the title of a small town in Europe, which almost all Chinese people have never even heard of. Fortunately for wikipedia, our guidelines for article titles don't include the geopolitical decisions of China as a criterion.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:28, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You misinterpreted what I wrote. I pointed to more than half of countries with about 3/4 of world population in the context of determining what is the official name. Peć is official name per legislative of Serbia and for all other countries who do not recognize Kosovo as an independent state. Having in mind that it is also one of the official names for Kosovo government, it would be a violation of WP:NPOV to proclaim Peja/Pejë as official.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:04, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia in most of those countries you are referring to its illegal, so I don't see whats your point. However, this is Wikipedia-English and as such you need to refer to those countries which have the English language as the primary language... and I'm afraid that the vast majority of the English speaking countries do recognize Kosova as an independent and self-governed country. Anyway, the Move was not based on these arguments but on other objective arguments. Bes-ART Talk  12:15, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Hello . I just want to point out that the much more famous Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople is not grounds for calling the Wikipedia page of Istanbul "Constantinople". In just the same way the name of the patriarchate is not really grounds for not moving this page, since this page is about the municipality and city. Best regards. Leokr (talk) 13:59, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This is wrong on many levels and its not relevant argument for this discussion. -- Ąnαșταη ( ταlκ ) 19:51, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Hello . I disagree that what I write is wrong. The Wikipedia page discussed herein is about the municipality and city, not the patriarchate. And the Wikipedia page for Istanbul is the same, while the page for the patriarchate is called "Constantinople". However, I do agree with you that it does not pertain to this discussion, and I only brought it up because of s argument about the patriarchate, which (in my opinion) has no bearing on this discussion. Regards, Leokr (talk) 07:33, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * What's wrong here is the massive off-wiki canvassing and the community will deal with that after these discussions are over.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:27, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I have seen multiple accusations of off-site canvassing thrown around this and other Balkans-related move discussions. Could you provide any evidence of off-site canvassings of significant scale having taken place that is more than just users from Balkans participating in discussions and disputes in Balkans-related articles? StellarHalo (talk) 21:41, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * When the same accounts with very few edits in English wikipedia appear in the same discussions to put forward the same opinion, that is something which - in my opinion - requires much closer attention. There are accounts in these discussions which have logged in, voted in all of them and then logged out with no edits ever since. The same has happened in a recent AfD which I filed. Admins chose to relist the AfD and relist one of the move discussions in order to get a clearer view. It is sort of a solution, but my opinion since the beginning is that we need massive community participation by established editors in order to get a result that reflects a real discussion in the community. Regardless of the result - it has to be decided by the quality of arguments put forward by the community, not by !votes.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:04, 27 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Actually the account with "very few edits in English wikipedia" is the initiator of the move request,, who had no contribs at all prior to initiationg this request. But you're dishonestly pretending not to see that. It's always a conspiracy when you don't "win" isn't it? Khirurg (talk) 00:37, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi . I don't why you are insinuating that I am doing something wrong. The first sentence in the move request literally says "I have never edited on Wikipedia". As far as I can ascertain, there is no rule against people who have never edited requesting a move. I have not hidden my inexperience, but I have tried to read previous arguments in previous requested moves, as well as the naming conventions policies.
 * Meanwhile, most of the opposition to the move makes no reference to these policies, besides WP:COMMONNAME, which it has been argued by many users does not really apply in this case, among which is, who writes that "The raw data suggests that "Pec" does not meet the criteria of a "significant majority" to be the WP:COMMONNAME. The results also indicate that either name is not all that "common". Both observations tend toward adopting the official name in this case."
 * In general, I am disappointed with the tone in some of the discussion here, which from some users have been harsh and antagonistic, and filled with bad faith accusations. Some could benefit from reading this article, Principle of charity. Regards, Leokr (talk) 07:33, 28 August 2020 (UTC).


 * One editor who starts a move discussion and has few edits, doesn't influence its decisions unlike multiple accounts with few edits which place the same !oppose in three very different discussions. There's no guideline against the former regardless of edit count. There are multiple policies that affect the latter. It's telling that has been active in this discussion, but many of the accounts with few edits who !oppose the move: logged in, !voted and since then have no edits, neither in this discussion, nor anywhere else. It's no surprise that the support/oppose ratio is <1 between Balkan editors, but the same ratio between non-Balkan editors is 4 to 1. All of these !votes should be discarded by the closing admin - or at the very least, this should be relisted so that actual editors have the chance to engage in a discussion about how policy functions.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * There is plenty of discussion. If you are WP:IDHT pretending not to notice]], that's on you. And there are just as many !votes on the !support side, but again that doesn't seem to bother you. Khirurg (talk) 05:02, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

NOTE TO CLOSING ADMIN: This request is opened by users third edit of the never used account. Most of the Support users opened their account within days and one month to each other, at the end of 2019, during the Wiki Academy Kosovo event. The dates of duration of event lined with our "new neutral users" appearances on Wikipedia. It is obvious that Republic of Kosovo is using new editors again, as we have witnessed several times in the past years they already did, as their national agenda pov pushers and fighters. We already know that they educate new users to use English Wikipedia as pro-Albanian propaganda advocacy tool, and that is strictly forbidden by WP:ARBMAC. Therefor this coordinated list of renaming of established article name with attempt to rename them to Albanian language, that should be presented as new "commonname". And this is happening on at least 4 articles at the moment. Admins should be well aware that those requests are very much disputable, and therefor, consensus reached is actually not consensus, but organised and paid political advocacy. -- Ąnαșταη ( ταlκ ) 08:42, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * What a strange, bad faith comment. Please, if you have any evidence of your accusations, provide it. Otherwise, your comment should be disregarded. Accusing and slandering others without evidence is against the rules. WP:No personal attacks and WP:Civility. Leokr (talk) 17:02, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks like and  might be onto something. I guess appealing to r/Kosovo doesn't count as canvassing, does it?  Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 18:47, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * In any case, they are only discussing how to change the page name through the rules of Wikipedia after an apparent edit war. No one in the thread is asking anyone to vote or do anything. Canvassing according Wikipedia is "notification done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way, and is considered inappropriate. This is because it compromises the normal consensus decision-making process, and therefore is generally considered disruptive behavior." In the reddit thread in question there was no attempt by anyone to influence any discussion, especially since the move request occurred after the reddit thread was posted.
 * Of course, if the closing admin deems the reddit thread sufficient to ignore the discussion and arguments, that is their prerogative. In my personal opinion there is no canvassing in play, since no comment is saying that people should vote on anything or influence any discussion, especially since there was no requested move when the thread was made.
 * On the other hand, we have editors accusing other editors of being basically paid operatives of states, as well as other editors writing in a disparaging and uncivil tone throughout the discussion. Leokr (talk) 20:29, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * One editor has been strictly warned for making WP:ASPERSIONs. admin oversight is necessary because you keep putting forward ASPERSIONs about other editors. Would anyone who is engaged paid advocacy and/or off-wiki coordination really do that on the central Kosovo discussion of reddit of all places? Really? You can't link any editor to any such activity and yet you put forward egregious accusations.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:09, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Who said anything about paid advocacy? Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 20:13, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * wrote "Most of the Support users opened their account within days and one month to each other, at the end of 2019, during the Wiki Academy Kosovo event. The dates of duration of event lined with our "new neutral users" appearances on Wikipedia. It is obvious that Republic of Kosovo is using new editors again, as we have witnessed several times in the past years they already did, as their national agenda pov pushers and fighters. We already know that they educate new users to use English Wikipedia as pro-Albanian propaganda advocacy tool, and that is strictly forbidden by WP:ARBMAC." Leokr (talk) 20:29, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * And/or off-wiki coordination - you can't link any specific editor to any form of off-wiki activity unless you have evidence. Since you obviously don't, what you're currently engaging in is an WP:ASPERSION.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:26, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not accusing anyone on en.wiki of anything. But the genesis of this move discussion (and, by extension, the other move discussions) appears to have been on Reddit, which is off-wiki activity by definition. Whether anyone from r/Kosovo has coordinated with any of the move proponents on en.wiki and vice versa is unclear and remains to be seen. The idea that bringing something like this up on a subreddit where hate speech and perjoratives such as Shkije are commonly used and that it wouldn't be interpreted as some kind of political call-to-action is laughable. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 20:37, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * That discussion was opened on the same day (I can't tell if it was before or after) - but that doesn't affect our discussion because not a single new editor has !supported this move - and the nominator is an old account despite the few edits. In fact, all of the !votes that involve new editors or editors with very few edits are !oppose ones. In fact, there's a large gap between Balkan and non-Balkan editors in favor of !support. In fact, the only discussion which has been closed by an admin as a case which was affected by canvassing recently was Articles for deletion/Destruction of books in post-independence Croatia which I filed and thankfully what very likely contituted heavy canvassing was recognized. So, what you're putting forward without being able to connect it to a single editor is an WP:ASPERSION. Because you can't put forward that something "remains to be seen" when you have nothing to back it up and you can name no account that has supported this move which can be categorized as a new !vote-only account. --Maleschreiber (talk) 21:02, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Offwiki canvassing is off-wiki canvassing, period. No amount of complicated explications can alter the fact. And it is not hard to imagine your reaction is the same canvassing had been done on the Serbian side - you and your friends would be screaming bloody murder. Khirurg (talk) 05:50, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, off-wiki canvassing is what it is and that reddit thread is not off-wiki canvassing, but a public reddit thread which you can't connect to any editor of wikipedia and you won't find a single account that fits the category of off-wiki canvassing in this discussion. The WP:ASPERSIONs started from accusations of paid advocacy and a secret "WikiAcademy Kosovo" and they've devolved to "oh look, someone has created a public reddit thread". At the end day, there's not a single !support that could have been the result of canvassing. New accounts have only !opposed the vote. If that occurs, accuse that account openly and stick a notification that Wikipedia is not a democracy at the head of the proper move discussion.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:54, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Well it would have pretty hilarious if whoever posted that was dumb enough to use their Wikipedia username. But even though it doesn't appear to have been very successful off-wiki canvassing (although it seems that every single active Albanian wikipedia editor has !voted here), it still very much is off-wiki canvassing. But I forget I am dealing with the guy who was recently trying to convince the world that a Serbian Orthodox church is actually |not a Serbian Orthodox Church. Khirurg (talk) 22:49, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[[Image:Bogorodica_Ljeviska1.jpg|thumb|right|250px|It sure looks like a Serbian Orthodox church, it sounds like a Serbian Orthodox church, but believe it or not, according to some Wikipedia users, this is actually NOT a Serbian Orthodox Church.]]
 * There's not even a hint that anyone from wikipedia posted that thread - don't put that forward as a generic WP:ASPERSION. There are no new editors who were drawn to this discussion to !support it. The total tally between Balkan editors was ca. 0.8-to-1 when it was relisted, but between non-Balkan editors, most had !supported the move. I don't think that ethnicity of editors matters, arguments matter - wikipedia is not a democracy. Side comment: A structure which has been used as a Byzantine church for 500+ years, as a Serbian Orthodox Church for ~150 years, as an Ottoman mosque for ~300 years and as a museum for the last 70 years, is not a Serbian Orthodox Church despite claims by the organization which wants to gain the property. It is a cultural monument that "belongs" to everybody regardless of religion and nationality.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:21, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * That count of yours about non Balkan users, numbers, votes etc, its not true, actually. Its misrepresentation and gaming the system in the end. You should not count for yourself, as that is not true, but leave someone unrelated to conclude in the end. Also, your comment about Bogorodica Ljeviška. Well, its Serbian Orthodox Church, despite IDONTLIKEIT. And there are so many sources to prove it. Cannot believe in your comment. But that is not the subject of this request. --16:47, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * @Maleschreiber: You may think this type of POV sophistry is clever, but all it does is damage your credibility. It's also pretty funny of you trying to creatively re-define what off-wiki canvassing is, what with all 9 of your months editing here.Khirurg (talk) 00:37, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * One hundred years ago, there was a minaret and other para-structures which marked this as a mosque. Then for a time it was redesigned again as a church and in the 1950s, the interior was again redesigned as a museological space. It has a complex history which is reflected in its architecture. In our era (postmodernity), complexity is accepted for what it is. In previous eras, complexity was thrown aside in favor of simplistic narratives. Those eras are behind us.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:37, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The only "complexity" I see is in your elaborate sophistry to try to convince the world not to believe our lying eyes. Khirurg (talk) 04:13, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * ( Comment inserted subsequently ) If that reddit post is all we have then it's safe to say that there is no evidence of off-wiki canvasing. As for Maleschreiber's credibility as an editor, it's even safer to say that he came through to the other side of these sustained personal attacks with his credibility unscathed, his demeanor exemplary, and, most importantly, his arguments cogent and well-reasoned.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  15:32, 13 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Another note Anastan has been warned by an admin for the aspersions they made on move discussions . The admin made a good summary of the situation while referring to Anastan: "As you know, you yourself were once named in an SPI and were blocked one week for apparent meatpuppetry. Ironically, that SPI involved another user that worked with you in the same Wikipedia workshop. Your charge about new editors who worked together at Wiki Academy Kosovo has some common elements with that". It seems that Anastan is accusing others of things he got blocked for in the past (off-Wiki coordination with srwiki academy editors). Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:55, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I suggest that accusations and replies to accusations come to an end. Several AfDs on the Yugoslavia topic were recently closed without much regard for the number of !votes. It happened so as it is well-known that partisan !votes are a real thing. One thing in this context is meanigful. Apart from one, all the "non-Balkan editors" (editors who are not focused on the Balkans) who have !voted here have supported the move. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:12, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not true. Khirurg (talk) 22:01, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
 * 100% not true.  Sadkσ  (talk is cheap)  17:14, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the situation has changed since I made my post above. Now the non-Balkan editors are 9 vs 3 in support of the move. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:42, 17 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose and change to Pec. The current spelling is the least commonly used in English sources whereas "Pec" (without the diacritic) has historically been by far the most common. Although all three are currently used, Pec is still predominant. Bermicourt (talk) 07:43, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per op and wp:commonnameblindlynx (talk) 18:57, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong support: It's refreshing to see a non Balkans topic editor like make a dispassionate, compelling and grounded page move case based on wiki guidelines and so on in the often fraught and toxic Balkan topics area.Resnjari (talk) 20:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per reasonably argued nomination. BD2412  T 01:33, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Support because neither name is common in English, google maps uses the Albanian romanisation, its the official name, more reliable sources over the last 10 years use it if you critically analyse the sources over the last 10 years. --Investigatory (talk) 09:22, 17 September 2020 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ottoman Empire
A portion of text was added to the aforementioned section that claims that during the 15th and 16th century, the region of Peja and Suhogërla had a majority population of Orthodox Albanians according to the Ottoman defter. I have removed this text for a number of reasons. The text does not specifically mention the city of Peja itself. Secondly, the text is WP:EXTRAORDINARY in that it conflicts with other opinions of demographic history of the city and region. Ottoman narratives state that Peja had a Muslim majority population by the 16th century due to Islamization and colonization. According to the Serbian narrative, Serbians represented the majority population of the region of Peja in the 16th century. In reality, the Ottoman narrative ranks highest as the defter didn't recognize ones nationality, rather their religion. Hence, the one sourced text that pushes an Albanian nationalist narrative is extraordinary and its presence will only serve the purpose of creating an edit war, given that it conflicts with other narratives. I would be inclined to suggest putting the Ottoman narrative in to discuss the demographic history of the city of Peja itself. ElderZamzam (talk) 00:42, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
 * You can add modern RS material as much as anybody, but don't remove or blank material from entire sections if you won't add RS material to replace it. The theory that Albanians made up a small insignificant minority in medieval Kosovo is long since outdated. Albanian anthroponomy has been found throughout medieval Kosovo, so the assertion that 16th century Metohija had a total of 30 villages with Albanians makes your source quite...bizarre.Alltan (talk) 17:05, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Link rot
Hi @Botushali, what do you mean by "not cited" properly? You can't even currently read the source, so how would you know its not citing content correctly? --Azor (talk). 17:55, 27 April 2024 (UTC)


 * What is the claim sourced to? Tell me the actual name of the source, the author's first and last name, the publication year, the ISBN, the page number etc etc that makes this claim. Your WP:HOUND behaviour is getting disruptive; you re-added something that has no real source. Botushali (talk) 17:59, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Botushali, please read WP:Link rot carefully. The entire point with link rot is that you can't identify it, unless deeper research is done. That alone is NOT enough to just remove a citation and its content. Bring back the content and its citation and let editors work on identifying it. --Azor (talk). 18:18, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * No - the issue here is that it was not even cited properly in the first place, so it is of no use. Usually, dead links are still useful because they will contain the name of the source and its author at the very least even though the link doesn't work, but that's not the case here. There is no information available regarding the citation, so we have no reason to believe that it hasn't been made up. You're saying I am removing a citation, but there is no actual citation to begin with. Botushali (talk) 18:28, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Look at past versions of this article. The link and content has stayed there a very long time. You do not remove content and dead links with or without the name of the source/author. If you do not wish to help identify the source, you leave it be and let others do it. --Azor (talk). 18:59, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * We cannot leave unsourced information on the article - it is technically unsourced, as no source is cited. Botushali (talk) 19:04, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

The citation was originally added on 9 Sep 2009. At the time, it included identifying information in addition to the url: La civilisation Serbe au moyen age, Paris 1920, p.15 I did a search, and that book is available at the Internet Archive. I don't read French so can't tell if it supports the associated content. Hope that helps. Schazjmd  (talk)  21:00, 27 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Much appreciated! Considering it’s from 1920, WP:AGEMATTERS is definitely applicable here. Botushali (talk) 21:30, 27 April 2024 (UTC)