Talk:Peja/Archive 3

Requested move 12 August 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: not moved - see closer comment at end. (non-admin closure) Cinderella157 (talk) 23:55, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Peć → Peja – Kosovo has declared its independence in 2008. Previously Kosovo was an autonomous province of Yugoslavia and later a region of Serbia. In this time (1974-89) Albanian, Serbo-Croatian and Turkish were official language (Article 131). Look at the census of 2011: There are 94% Albanians - which means that the people in Peja would more use Peja as Peć. Let me show you reliable English-language sources: (1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (6) - there are many sources (books (published in different years), newspaper articles (NYT)). Certainly there are sources for Peć too. But look here on this result of Peć and Peja. According to WP:AT, WP:COMMONNAME (WP:UCRN): Sometimes, the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. (added ElmedinRKS (talk) 00:08, 13 August 2019 (UTC)) ''When this occurs, we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change is announced. If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match.'' ElmedinRKS (talk) 21:44, 12 August 2019 (UTC) --Relisted. – Ammarpad (talk) 05:56, 20 August 2019 (UTC) --Relisting.  &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 06:17, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment: Less than a year ago, this very request failed with obvious opposition. Has anything changed since October 2018?  O.N.R.  (talk) 22:38, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Did you read my arguments and the „arguments“ of October 2018? Here are different reliable English-language sources (WP:UCRN) and I have looked at WP:COMMONNAME in great depth. ElmedinRKS (talk) 00:02, 13 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment: In order to convince the Wiki community about this move, you will need to show not only that Peja is used by reliable sources (and the examples given are not convincing – travel guides, one memoir, one novel, one single caption in a newspaper article), you need to show that Pejë/Peja has become the most commonly used name. You would have to show that there is a significant shift in usage since the last move request in 2018. I doubt that this is the case. --T*U (talk) 16:52, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I can not understand it. According to WP:COMMONNAME I have to show reliable English-language sources. That is it what I did. The previous RMs are showing how much articles they are for Peć and Peja. And: In year 2007 this book was published. Or this neutral one. ElmedinRKS (talk) 19:37, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The issue here is that for a COMMONNAME to be established the name has to be prevalent in English language sources not simply that some source use the name. The problem is that so far most people aren’t convinced that has been demonstrated.--64.229.166.98 (talk) 17:50, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * ”Some sources”? ElmedinRKS (talk) 17:57, 21 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Support per nomination. Unlike the occasional requests to use the Turkish names instead of the Anglicized Greek names of locations in Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, which is recognized by only a single UN member, this request concerns a location that does not have an English exonym (thus leaving English speakers with either the Serbian name, Peć or the Albanian name, Peja), in an entity which is recognized by 101 UN members, including the entire English-speaking world (List of states with limited recognition). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:18, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The current consensus is that Peć is the most commonly used form in English-language sources. What will be needed to change this consensus, is to convince me and others that this has changed. The proposer has shown a handful of sources that use Peja (by the way, the second and the third are identical, and the first is another edition of the same book). I could easily list any number of similar sources using Peć. Also, most of the given sources for Peja are not even new, so they will have been around when this was discussed last, and before that, and before that... Unless anyone can show that there has been a shift in usage, the current consensus holds. --T*U (talk) 16:24, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment: This article uses Peja and is from 2019. The argument that the books are not new shows that Peja was always been used. (1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (6), (7), (8); definitely Peja is the most commonly used form. ElmedinRKS (talk) 17:56, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Google analysis by Cal : this one is a bit hard because both Pec and Peja will turn up other entities on Google (a Hungarian city also with a Slavic(?) name spelled Pec plus some Czech villages as well as the Pec patriarchate, an athlete with the forename Peja, etc), so some filtering was necessary.
 * English google with "Peć" + Kosovo -Wikipedia : 746,000 results -- some of these refer to the patriarchate but I think many more refer to the city.
 * English google with "Peja" + Kosovo -Wikipedia : 858,000 results note also that some of the sources in both columns here are alternating between Peja and Pec'... but it seems Peja has a slight advantage.
 * English google with "Pejë" +Kosovo -Wikipedia: 538,000 results. . Note that Britannica appears to have recently changed to using Peje by default.
 * English google with "Peje" (no umlaut) +Kosovo -Wikipedia: 308,000 results -- this form is preferred in many Latin alphabets without the umlaut e, and is also used by Albanians when typing with non-Albanian keyboards.
 * to be fair I then searched Pec with no accent +Kosovo -Wikipedia... for 1,180,000 results. Some of these do refer to other entities but scrolling through I'd say the vast majority refer to the town in Kosovo.

So none of this shows what has become more common but we can gather (a) that Anglophones dislike the versions with accented letters, and (b) there appears to be a statistical tie if you add these forms together -- i.e. the Albanian name's variants have 1.704 million, the Serbian name's variants have 1.926 million (there is certainly some double counting for Pec/Peć and Peje/Pejë which helps the Pec side more because Peja does not get double counted .... buuuuut I don't think this changes the fact that the Albanian versus Serbian forms have a sort of parity online).

Google N-grams is unreliable for "Pec" here [[because a look through the sources it includes in Pec include cookbooks, some cases where it is apparently used an acronym like in chemistry and nanotechnology it seems, bodybuilding books (you know, pectorals) and so forth. With other forms, Peja and Peje are clearly dominant as you can see here, and although Peja Stojakovic is included in the Peja sources, the difference is way too huge for that to matter, and Peja actually had the upper hand before he was born (the same cannot be said for other places called Pec). Furthermore, the dominance of Peja/e is only growing and has steadily increased from 1996 till present -- but, even before '96, in English, it appears Peja had the upper hand (likely not because of any favoritism toward Albanian names, but instead perhaps because no one wanted to write that accented c -- the Pejë form similarly was beaten out by Peja). The vast majority of the sources of all of these remaining strings have to do with Kosovo. However, one thing I did find is that although we have a huge weight in favor of the Pej(a/e) variants, when we are talking about the Patriarchate, the situation is the reverse and very much favors the Serbian form.

I don't think COMMONNAME is clear here -- we have more of a Gdansk Danzig situation. So instead I suggest (1) Use Peja -- definite form -- Anglophones seem to prefer this -- for the city since the end of Serbian administration, (2) Pec for periods when under Serbian administration, (3) Ipek in history sections when discussing the Ottoman period and finally (4) Pec for all Orthodox Christian institutions in and of the city (Peja for Muslim/Catholic ones). Cheers, --Calthinus (talk) 21:28, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
 * That seems pretty reasonable. As you noted, the stalemate by the number of search results isn't of use here, so having this sort of balance reaches an good conclusion. Calling the city as per the time-frame of the context proves logical to me. ArbDardh (talk) 22:29, 24 August 2019 (UTC)ArbDardh
 * SPEEDYCLOSE Everybody here agree that the renaming proposal is not grounded in WP:COMMONNAME or any other wikipedia policy. The consensus for the existing title remains. If nobody managed to present valid reasons to change consensus reached for Peć for 13 days, this discussion should be (not so speedy actually) closed.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:56, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Speak for yourself Anti. I dont support this.--Calthinus (talk) 01:10, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Are you sure that “everybody“ does? I do not think so. ! ElmedinRKS (talk) 02:38, 25 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose - aparently there were no new significant changes since the last consensus. Another thing I already pointed out in other similar RfM´s for cities in Kosovo, and I will repeat again and it is valid for all RfM´s from around the world, is the invalidity of the argument that X or Y % of "locals" use the name more. Certainly over 90% of Venetians call their city "Venezia" but that is absolutelly irrelevant for English Wikipedia. Each language Wikipedia should use the titles for their articles in the most used name in the corresponding lnaguage. So, returning to our issue here, what matters is how English-language publications majoritarily refer. The title must be the one most recognisable to English-speaking readers. There are three options for cases of foreign places, one is a proper English word when it exists (exemple Belgrade for Beograd), second option is a native name, and third option is the adoption of the name in some language which has influenced English-language enough to be adopted instead of the native language. In our case here, English language has not come up with an original form of name for the city, but instead has adopted the Serbian version as Serbian has been culturally domminant in the region. Kosovo-Albanians should focus that the city is properly written in Albanian in Albanian Wikipedia, and allow all other Wikipedias in other languages to see by themselves what name they use in their language most commonly to identify the city and use that version as title. But demanding other language Wikipedias to addopt the Albanian name of the city just because majority of population now is Albanian, is unreasonable. Besides, it is overwelmingly commun to see either right at the lede, or in a section at the begining, the mention of the other names of the city, its etimology, etc. FkpCascais (talk) 17:51, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Long time no see Cascais. As for ... what Anglophones actually use is not what you think. Google NGrams shows how much Anglophones hate having to type accented Peć, while the dominance of Peja is steadily increasing. []. --Calthinus (talk) 18:50, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this ElmedinRKS (talk) 19:16, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, what can I say Calthinus, if it comes out that Peja is now more used in English and is demonstrably predominant, then I would support it. Just don´t want to hear anymore the "we locals call it this way" argument. FkpCascais (talk) 23:29, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

*Oppose The proposal to move this has been rejected in the past. The argument behind this application is political, rather than a significant increase in the use of "Peja" in online literature. Both sides can argue for the name as both Serbian and Albanian are official languages in Kosovo. The fact that just because there is an Albanian majority does not warrant an immediate change in the name. Since the previous attempt to change the name of the article, I have not seen a significant shift in the use of "Peja" in online literature. Debating the names of towns/cities in the Balkans is an ongoing trend and I have seen it happen recently in the Skopje page when there was a push to have "Üsküp" utilised in text. For the sake of keeping the peace, this proposal should be rejected. ThreatMatrix (talk) 13:46, 27 August 2019 (UTC) The editor has been blocked as a sock of.
 * Hello TryDeletingMe. Long time, no see. Wait for a SPI. I will file one soon time permitting. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:00, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I see you are synonymous with edit warring and that you have taken the liberty of removing traces of it off your talk page. VJ-Yugo, Osourdounmou and Donaldduck13, it seems your witch-hunt is never ending. ThreatMatrix (talk) 08:07, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * : Mutual accusations about editor conduct has nothing to do in this RfC unless substanciated. Please WP:REDACT. --T*U (talk) 11:00, 28 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I read your comments and I need to have sth clarified. You are proposing to have Peja, Pec and Ipek used throughout the article based on the historical context and I fully support this. What should the article name be according to you? The current one or the proposed one? Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:07, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Having also looked at the previous requests for a name change, I think it should be changed to Peja. Peć seems as if it is falling out of usage in preference to Peja, as per Calthinus's helpful Ngram (i.e. a change would be reasonable to keep up with the times). ArbDardh (talk) 22:22, 28 August 2019 (UTC)ArbDardh
 * My bad I didn't specify this, I kind of implied it. For any time when Serbia has control of it, it is Pec', Ottomans Ipek, and any other time Peja. The city is not under Serbian control at present, so the name should be Peja. Of course, this is global-policy-wise reinforced by Google's evidence of the large preference for Peja at the expense of "annoying" accented forms. If Serbia were to reconquer it, we would again be in a period of Serbian control. I.e. formally, name of article adheres to the same time period scheming used within the article, whereby it refers to the present moment. Differing use within the article's sections according to what part of history is being discussed is unchanged regardless of the article name. Cheers. --Calthinus (talk) 22:33, 28 August 2019 (UTC) Removing my vote on what the page name itself should be -- per 's evidence, going further in depth, it seems Peja surpasses Pec in results only in 2017 [], still too early to say that this will last, page name should probably wait. --Calthinus (talk) 06:03, 1 September 2019 (UTC) Unstricken per later investigation revealing that Google scholar was not restricted to English docs.--Calthinus (talk) 16:07, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Peja+kosovo returns 15 pages since 2019. Peć+Kosovo returns 10 pages since 2019. ElmedinRKS (talk) 11:08, 1 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your answers guys. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:46, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: I made a quick "advanced search" of GoogleScholar. For works published in English during the 2018-2019 period (because the last RM on this talk page was made in 2018), "Peja Kosovo" returns 38 pages of results while "Peć Kosovo" returns 17 . Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:22, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * weak support mostly per reasoning by Cal google analysis. Cal convinced me that Peja is more popular in the current era than Peć. It is only natural that accented C is getting out of use among all those using US/EN Keyboards (but that is just my opinion). Also, I 'd like to note that the argument of "what locals say" is of some value. The reason is locals most commonly have an opinion about the various terms in English language. So if their city/town/village is world-known, their opinion would be insignificant, but if their village is grossly unknown, their opinion (usually expressed on how local authorities describe themselves in English) is of some value. Cinadon36 06:36, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose It is clear that if the Serbian diacritic is removed from the name, Pec is more commonly used than Peja. I would support renaming the article to Pec, much as we have Pristina and not Priština or Prishtina. 23 editor (talk) 15:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment Pec is a wrong spelling because the ć is missing here. Pristina is actuall a neutral diction of Prishtina (Albanian) and Priština (Serbian). Did you see Calthinus results? 858,000 results for Peja while Peć has 764,000 results. Also Ktrimi991 researched on Google scholar and he got 17 pages of result and for Peja 38. And do not forget my given reliable English-language sources. --ElmedinRKS (talk) 16:39, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
 * To be entirely fair 23 editor is proposing removing the ć, so the comparison would be to "Pec" -- which does have more on its own than Peja. When you add the different forms for the Albanian and Serbian forms together it is very hard to distinguish which has more for raw Google since many, possibly a majority of results will use both the Albanian and Serbian forms. --Calthinus (talk) 16:55, 30 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Support  per nomination. According of Calthinus google analysis Peja is the most common name and more popular in English-language sources. Also Ktrimi991 convinced me that Peja Kosovo returns 38 pages and Peć only 17. --MarcRKS (talk) 19:43, 31 August 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:E5:AF0B:B409:A5A9:6582:36B2:F1BF (talk)
 * I do not want to assume bad faith but MarcRKS had made only one edit (that back in 2017) before commenting here. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:29, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment That could be true but he is active in de:wp (too) and knows the discussions about Kosovo local names. ElmedinRKS (talk) 20:05, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I have reformatted to show that this is not part of the discussion just above it. It would still be interesting to know how became aware of this discussion, given their total list of one edit before commenting here. --T*U (talk) 08:25, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * It's true, I only have one edit, however I'd like to highlight that I'm following almost all discussions about Kosovo articles. I simply thought that now it's time to share my opinion, after reading all comments above wisely. Personally, I'm more active in the German Wikipedia (see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:MarcRKS), but I'm thinking about starting in the English Wikipedia as well. MarcRKS (talk) 11:37, 31 August 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.233.40.126 (talk)


 * Oppose A search with Google Scholar shows "Peć+Kosovo" returns ~4500 hits, while "Peja+Kosovo" only ~2600 hits . While it's true that Peja is gaining on "Peć", it's nowhere near close for a page move yet. I also note that no one here has convincingly demonstrated that "Peja" is more common". Khirurg (talk) 00:12, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * But your search with Google Scholar is not only in English. I also saw a source in German (last one). [[User:ElmedinRKS|ElmedinRKS] (talk) 11:13, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * This appears correct. I've manually reset the search to English. Pec is still in the lede, but the difference is much less. [|Peja+Kosovo: 2,000 results]; [|Peć+kosovo: 2,500 results]. However -- if we restrict it to more recent years, Peja begins to win. If its only 2009 (first year after independence) onward, we have Peja+Kosovo with 1,610 results [], and Peć+Kosovo with 1,310 results[]. Restrict to the last 5 years, and Peja+Kosovo leads with 1,090 results[], whereas Peć+kosovo has 748 results []. I'm unstriking my vote after seeing this.--Calthinus (talk) 16:07, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant. To make the case for a page move, it is necessary to show that one form of the name is clearly more common than the current name. This has not been demonstrated here. Restricting searches to the last 5 years is not how this is done. Khirurg (talk) 18:58, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * However, restricting searches to the last eleven years, i.e. 2009 onward is meaningful. Because it is all sources that were likely composed and published after the major February 2008 change in status (Serbian autonomy -> independent) followed by recognition by the vast majority of the political West (including all natively Anglophone countries) as well as a good chunk of the rest.--Calthinus (talk) 19:02, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * But Calthinus showed that Peja+kosovo have 2,000 and Peć+kosovo 2,500 hits. The difference is not so much. In this case Peć is definitely not more common. ElmedinRKS (talk) 19:08, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Actually, Peć is slightly more common. And even if it wasn't, for the page to move, you have to make the case that "Peja" is more common. You haven't (because it isn't). You want to move the page, the burden of proof is on you. Basically, nothing has changed since the last failed move request from last year. Khirurg (talk) 19:23, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * In my opinion is it not justified to say that Peć is more common with 2,500 hits than Peja with 2,000. I showed some English-language sources after WP:UCRN rules and other users did a really good research. Sorry, but the last mentioned point is wrong. ElmedinRKS (talk) 20:43, 1 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Support, Your arguments and sources have convinced me. --Gomaza (talk) 03:07, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Support Calthinus' and ArbDardh's proposal to move the article to "Peja" and use Peja/Peć/Ipek throughout the article based on the historical context. The Ngram results show that Peja is more used in books that Peć, though the results are not of much help in this case as they are for books before 2009. Raw GoogleBooks reaults (without Ngram) are not useful at all as they contain many Albanian and Serbian books, and in many cases "Pec" refers to things very different from the subject of this article. GoogleScholar results for academic articles published since 2018 (the last RM discussion on this talk page took place in 2018) show an obvious preference for "Peja". GoogleScholar results for English sources for all years ("No specified year" option) too back "Peja". Sth bad is that this discussion has become another matter of dispute between Balkan editors (from a small number of Balkan countries that have problems with each other) with small amounts of input from editors of another background and worldview. While 13 editors have "voted" here (the nominator and myself included; 8 support vs 5 oppose), only 5 are not from the Balkans (4 support vs 1 oppose) . Editors from places outside the Balkans should be more encouraged to participate in such stuff. The name of the article is a small thing though, the body of the article is the part that needs the most of work. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:37, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Calthinus has done very extensive and valuable research into the common name, and concluded it's a complete wash. Sources are neck-and-neck. As such, something akin to WP:RETAIN kicks in - we should not arbitrarily switch from one equally-used variant to another equally-used variant, we should stick with the way it is. I would probably support a move to Pec without diacritics, as the research also shows English sources prefer wihtout, but that page is currently a disambiguation (as, indeed, is Peja) so that's a sideshow. Overall, there is no good reason to move and it would represent a breach of WP:NPOV to switch from the version used by one ethnicity to the version used by a different ethnicity, when both are equally common in English. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 08:37, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment - I can't find where Calthinus expressing this conclusion of his you are mentioning, but I can point to his claim that "the dominance of Peja is steadily increasing" in English.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  19:08, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
 * They say it several times, for example "the Albanian versus Serbian forms have a sort of parity online". The research by Calthinus is very useful, and demonstrates clearly why at this point no move should be made. Thanks &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 12:09, 10 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose per arguments provided by Amakuru, obviously it's not a good reason to move & it would represent a clear breach of WP:NPOV .Alexikoua (talk) 21:56, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Curious, would you care to explain the rationale of why "Peja" (Albanian) is, but "Peć" (Serbian) is not?--Calthinus (talk) 16:24, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
 * If the article had always been called Peja, that would be fine. But given that it is currently titled Peć, and neither title enjoys common name status over the other in English, it would be clearly POV to switch from one to the other as this RM recommends. We should not be taking sides in ethnic disputes. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 12:06, 10 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Support per nomination by @ElmedinRKS and additional reasons outlined by @Calthinus, @ArbDardh and @Ktrimi991. Long overdue change. Peja has been gaining traction for some time now in the English speaking world over Pec.Resnjari (talk) 10:40, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Support per rational given by ElmedinRKS, Calthinus, ArbDardh and Ktrimi991, with respecting Peja/Peć/Ipek throughout the article based on the historical context per Calthinus' and ArbDardh's proposal. However, these polls are pointless and ridicules, given that they boil down to who has more currently involved editors in terms of their ethnic identity, which then boils down to how many of them is aware of this poll. This needs to be decided within neutral as possible environment - it should go step-by-step, all the way to arbitration.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  18:52, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't really agree with the last comment -- some things are not perfect, and maybe some editors vote predictably by ethnicity but others don't (we have one Greek that voted on the Albanian "side" here; if everyone's a cookie cutter nationalist you would expect Greeks to always help out Serbs where Albanians are concerned; also on grounds of my own ethnicity one might expect me to support the Serbian name of a historic Serbian holy site here but I don't). Maybe some people's opinions are influenced in part by their background, and it would be better to have more editors who are less connected to the Balkans !voting, but I don't think they should be discounted just because of that, if that's what you're implying. --Calthinus (talk) 22:55, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Don't take that too personal (actually, at all), but that's exactly what I meant, you understood my message perfectly correctly, and I absolutely understand both your point and reaction as well, which is completely in accordance with Wikipedia's customary line. However, it is enough for one editor to vote (emotionally) according to his or her ethnic background, and we can no longer call this project an encyclopedia - and, unfortunately, as long as that's the state of affairs, Wikipedia alone will continue to consider itself an unreliable source of information and references.-- ౪ Santa ౪ 99°  01:47, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Its the nature of the wiki beast, it is what it is.Resnjari (talk) 14:46, 11 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose I oppose the move. Nothing significant has changed since last year/voting. Calthinus showed us that the variant Pec is still used slightly more frequently. Term Peja began to be used more often, but still not so much that we could move to it. Acamicamacaraca (talk) 07:58, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Actually it has. Last year's nomination for a pagemove was poorly done with the initial reason given that the municipal website uses that form. No other evidence was provided that is in line with Wikipedia decorum for such proposed pagemoves. A little later a poor attempt was done as the discussion followed. The inexperience of the nominator is evident in that thread. As even you yourself state, Peja now is more used then the form Pec. Whether change happens now or in the not to distant future, the future trajectory in English sources is for Peja and not Pec.Resnjari (talk) 01:34, 11 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose Peć is still very much in use. Some institutions of culture related to Peć (including those of Serbian Orthodox Church) use the original name of the city. This change would only cause more mess and more renaming and more trouble would come from it. Search engines also show another story. I think that renaming on a larger scale should take place only after the politicians come up with some sort of mutual agreement, which will not likely happen soon. I agree that this way of voting will not give us good results on the long run and this example could only damage Wikipedia further. Sadko (talk) 11:06, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Indeed they do -- and I'd rather keep them so on Wikipedia whatever we decide here -- but we can't state this without also acknowledging that SOC is a rather political institution and perhaps not the best thing to base decisions here on. It's pretty widely acknowledged by RS to also be a political actor. From its own page here, cited there too -- . [| Predictably, its theological stance is that Kosovo recognition as a "sin"]. Well His Holiness Irinej is in his rights to have that as his policy, and really I do feel for religious Serbs who feel like their holy sites are being ripped from them, but perhaps we shouldn't refer to such an institution as a source for our own decisions on a global encyclopedia.--Calthinus (talk) 13:57, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * That is only partially true. You are making a generalisation, which is rather ignorant in my book. The way SOC external affairs/comments work largely depends on views of the current patriarch and the most influential bishops. I could give you a number of examples for this - and we do not need to go centuries deep in the past. What is your point with the quote about the role of the church during Ottoman times? It's nothing new that they support/ed monarchists; church leaders accross the Globe belive in the sort of society in which "God is on heaven, king is on earth". P.S: An interesting piece of information for you: so called people's kitchens, mostly managed by SOC, feed not only poor Serbs all over the territory of Kosovo but also Albanians and a number of other groups. And just for the record - I am not a member of SOC and have no plans to be. Sadko (talk) 20:18, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Both of you have veered off topic. This is a pagemove for an inhabited place, not for a pagemove for the name of a diocese or the Patriarchate of Pec. What the Serb Orthodox Church calls this inhabited place has no dominate bearing on proceedings here. Otherwise one can start bringing other religious institutions into the mix like the Muslim Muftiship of the town which uses the form Peja etc. In contention is whether there has been an overall shift from Pec toward Peja in English sources. In the nomination, the evidence represented shows there has been. Is that a wide enough margin to change the name at this point in time will be something for the admin to decide.Resnjari (talk) 01:25, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The point was missed here. Some SOC communities have some autonomy, for all I know some might differ on gays or whether "blood" is necessary to defend Kosovo. But I would be astonished if a single one seriously disputed the stance that the (a) all of Kosovo is Serbian and (b) the SOC is a Serbian national institution since at least the 19th century, meaning its view is not a reference for us.--Calthinus (talk) 06:33, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Even if it was devoid of its political elements, a religious institution like SOC doesn't determine a name of a place. That was the jist of my comment. I see where your coming from as well and i agree.Resnjari (talk) 14:45, 11 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Support. I wanted to close this request as "moved" but I realized that I could reasonably be considered "involved" and I just don't want that drama. But the idea of calling a city by its modern name is well established, and since (let's be real) neither name sees any real usage in English, we should go by the common name of the people who actually run the city. Peja. Red   Slash  06:00, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This city has a history of some importance and in the history books it is always Peć. Srnec (talk) 02:44, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment: Well, Istanbul has a history of some importance too. Should we move it to Byzántion or  Constantinopolis? Peja was govern a long time by the Ottoman Empire. In that time they definitely does not use Peć or Peja but Ipek. ElmedinRKS (talk) 04:24, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
 * That's an erroneous suggestion by @Srnec. The settlement was part of the Ottoman state for around 500 years. It was known as Ipek and history books reflect that reality. Its Slavic name was used in an official capacity for much less than that., if historic names are the way to go, i'm also all for renaming this article and others by their former Turkish forms in the region. Ipek sounds fine too.Resnjari (talk) 12:49, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Serbian history of Pec: 1180-1455 and 1912 to 2008, in all those 381 yeard are less than the 457 years of Ottoman/Turkish history. As they say Kosovo je srce Turkije.--Calthinus (talk) 14:20, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Spot on ! lol Resnjari (talk) 14:44, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Do not forget that the albanians got an autonomous status between 1974 and 1989. 1991 was the first Declaration of Independence and after the War Kosovo was under internation control, which made Peja a little bit more popular as before. ElmedinRKS (talk) 17:35, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I never said anything about who ruled the city when or about official names. And as a matter of fact, we do have an article at Constantinople. Srnec (talk) 18:26, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Before trying to go full stand-up you forgot to mention several centuries of Slavic dwelling (mostly future Serbs, by fundamental logics and later archeological findings) on the territory of modern day Peć. That is some solid 500 years for you, or more. cheers Sadko (talk) 12:39, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
 * This was a joke for Resnjs consumption but you're right and its a fair point. Alas aside from likely Montenegrin objections to that logic^, we don't know what pagan Slavs called it. And we dont know the exact details of Albanian presence. The Tito era Serbian view as reproduced by Madgearu was that Albanians were there from around 1100 or so (alongside Serbs). The Albanian view of course has always been autochtony (again alongside "the Slavs"). And another reality that neither Serbian nor Albanian historiographies will easily admit is that the whole of Kosovo was a nest of Romance speakers in the Dark Ages who only assimilated slowly.--Calthinus (talk) 13:26, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
 * @Sadko, the Ottoman period is also some 500 years where that culture greatly impacted the town through Islamic monuments and other architecture, not to mention that for a large part of that time the town's population was overwhelmingly Muslim. And to @Srnec's point, yep that's why the the ancient period divided into Byzantium, the Orthodox era and even Ottoman era into Constantinople and the modern Turkish era is Istanbul. Are you saying we should divide this article into separate pages then, say into Pec for the Slavic era and Ipek for the Ottoman era with Peja for the modern?Resnjari (talk) 16:59, 16 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Support: The name should be in Albanian language. The Kosovo government refers to the city as Peja.Sadsadas (talk) 10:01, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment: They do not. Kosovo have two official languages, Albanian and Serbian. But that is not important here. ElmedinRKS (talk) 17:35, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Interesting then that your nomination talks about a name change. Srnec (talk) 18:26, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
 * There are 94 % Albanians - which means that the people in Peja would more use Peja as Peć does not mean The Kosovo government refers to the city as Peja. ElmedinRKS (talk) 18:45, 13 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Support for the arguments made above, we have to accept the reality that the city's official name is Peja (in Albanian) and not Peć (in Serbian). BalkanianActuality (talk), 16 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Actually both names are official (since Kosovo has two official languages). --T*U (talk) 13:17, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Maybe with official name he means the most common name in English-language sources. ElmedinRKS (talk) 21:47, 16 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose. This is the case of WP:COMMONNAME, and as far as I can see there is no evidence that "Peja" is the most common form in English. Google search is used here as an argument, but as usual, Google is controversial. As I already explained at Talk:Opolje, Google often shows high number of "results", but the real number of results can only be found out if one goes to the last page of the results. So, if we search for "Peć" Kosovo -wikipedia, there are 39 pages of results, while searching for "Peja" Kosovo -wikipedia returns 36 pages of results. Similarly, Google books search returns 31 pages for Peć and 30 pages for Peja. Although this is English language search, Google returns many results in Albanian, Serbian and other languages, but this is the best we can get from Google.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  19:25, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Support. When BBC and Reuters use Peja and never Peć online, I think it's fair enough.--Roy17 (talk) 00:25, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
 * You mean like never-never ?  Vanjagenije  (talk)  17:56, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Annotation: Pec is a wrong spelling. ElmedinRKS (talk) 23:03, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The BBC alternates between both forms this decade .Resnjari (talk) 20:16, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Reuters (in its search results) is in the never-never catagory when it specifically refers to the town, and not organisations like the Patriarchate. Instead Reuters uses Peja for the town .Resnjari (talk) 20:16, 21 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment. IMO, in doubtful cases, we should use the official name, local or otherwise. See for example North Macedonia (I haven't the energy to locate the WP:RM in the page archives) and several closed discussions on Talk:Eswatini (formerly Swaziland). I feel unqualified to have an opinion on this RM.
 * Meanwhile, 'Pec' for 'Peć' is just plain wrong. 'c' and 'ć' are different letters, pronounced differently. It's like saying that English 'was' and 'wash' are the same word. Narky Blert (talk) 23:28, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Closer comment: This is a case where the official name has changed. Comments have considered whether the name change is used sufficiently commonly for the name of the article to be renamed. There is no arguement (that I can see) that questions how the town is known locally (within Kosovo) now, in consequence of Kosovo's independence. Arguements centre on guidance at WP:COMMONNAME: Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent [emphasis added], reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the five criteria listed above. Germany (v Deutschland) and Belgrade (v Beograd) are examples. They also centre on WP:NAMECHANGES, where weight should be given to more recent sources. Istanbul v Constantinople) is an example where the common name persisted well after the official name change. Official names, though not a guideline, is pertinant to the discussion. Naming conventions (geographic names) is a context specific guideline.

There has been a body of evidence presented with searches from n-grams, Google search and Google scholar. I do not doubt the good faith in doing so but the analysis offerred with same is not clear. It is not simply a matter that the sources are "English language" but are they "independant" - ie are the authors, though writing in English, writing from an ethnic "bias" or, are they writing on the subject "at arms length"? I am not convinced that the analysis has sufficiently considered the criteria of independance.

In considering the evidence, the distinction between Peć and Pec has been noted. I also note Peja v Pejë. It is valid to observe that native English speakers are less concerned with usage of diacritics. Cadiz v Cádiz is an example. The significance was noted in the close of a previous move discussion. Consequently, evidence and analysis should not ignore this.

observes that neither name sees any real usage in English. This is a comment that appears to have particular merit. However, it has not been developed sufficiently to give it significant weight.

There is no consensus arising from the discussion. Further, I do not believe that a consensus will be arrived at by simply relisting the request. However, consideration of the observations herein may assist in focussing the discussion and facilitate a consensus - one way or the other. This close is therefore without prejudice to a further request. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:55, 25 September 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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 * MajlindaKOS.jpg

Change the name to Peja
The user who keeps changing the name back to the less used Serbian version shows strong political influence and refuses to follow the policies of Wikipedia of not spreading false news towards helping propaganda. Searching Peja + Kosovo in google and google scholar shows more results than the Serbian version. All the documents released from the country of Kosovo in the English version refer to it as Peja, which brings down the argument that Peja is referred otherwise on English. Please change the name back to Peja and stop with this stupid political propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.22.59.2 (talk) 13:25, 18 August 2020 (UTC)