Talk:Pemberton, Greater Manchester

Size of Pemberton
It seems the expanse of Pemberton has been somewhat exaggerated here. As far as I know (as a resident of Orrell), Orrell, Billinge and Winstanley are not considered to be part of Pemberton. I don’t believe Newtown (home of the JJB stadium) is either. I don’t know whether Goose Green, Worsley Mesnes, and Smithy Brook are, but I’m doubtful. Lamberhead Green is in Pemberton I think, and possibly Kitt Green. I know nothing of Pemberton’s historic borders, but to refer to ‘Pemberton’ now is not to refer to any of the places listed in this article. Comments welcome. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.33.128.77 (talk • contribs).


 * To the unsigned, above. All the information given is from published informed sources, (Including your local government authorities). This leads to the conclusion that your comments, about your local area, are at least as uninformed as the above analysis admits. Generic Character 09:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree Pemberton does seem to be exaggerated. Despite Orrell and Pemberton being essentially one continuous residential area the area mentioned above are not considered areas of Pemberton. Additionally Pemberton


 * Pemberton is a large district. Look on 'old maps' and see where it covers. Anywhere west of the River Douglas at Newtown is Pemberton. Lamberhead Green is in Orrell.


 * Facts, which are added to an article, should be as accurate as possible. Pemberton is separated from 'Wigan' by the River Douglas, which forms a 'border'. Wigan does not only consist of a 'town centre'. It is not separated from Wigan 'town centre' by the River Douglas.

Article intro

 * I consider this to be a suitable opening to the Pemberton article ....

Pemberton is an area and residential suburb in the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan, Greater Manchester[1], England. Covering 1157 hectares, it contains several smaller settlements within it's boundaries [2]. It is contiguous to Wigan, being separated from it by the River Douglas. Pemberton is part of the Wigan Urban Area.

Cited link [2] contains the same information regarding the smaller settlements making up Pemberton, and lists them. Pemberton cannot be 'contiguous' to Wigan AND two miles from it. 80.192.242.187 21:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.

Size of Pemberton (2)
The People who are questioning the size of Pemberton are right to do so. Worsley Mesnes, Goose Green and Hawkley Hall are NOT in Pemberton, this page is completely wrong. The cited references are to do with Parish boundaries not actual place bounderies which are completely different. Also it needs to be noted that some of the cited references link to genealogy sites which is specifically to do with the past, some of the descriptions are over 150 years old and are no longer valid for this actual page which is to do with the present. Heading from Bryn, upon passing the motorway sliproad roundabout, you immediately enter Goose Green NOT Pemberton and just to recap, Goose Green is NOT in Pemberton.

Apparently, you're in Billinge and Winstanley just past the motorway island and are not in Goose Green until you get to Clapgate Lane. According to Man2, it says so on the road sign but I've not seen it myself. That part of Billinge and Winstanley is called Marus Bridge. When you're in Goose Green, you're in a part of Pemberton, whether you like it or not. It says so on any deeds drafted from the Land Registry in Lytham. Going the way you say, you aren't in Wigan till you get over the River Douglas. 80.192.242.187 22:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC) JemmyH. PS. start to read books and get to know your area.

Can you link to any deeds drafted from the Land Registry in Lytham? if so then cite your references. The main landmarks after passing the motorway slip road roundabout are The Wheatlea Park, Total Fitness and the Shell Petrol station, these are all addressed as Goose Green. Goose Green is not part of Billinge and Winstanley and it is not part of Pemberton. To say that Goose Green doesn't start until Clapgate Lane is sheer stupidity. I'm not bothered about if Wigan starts after you get over the River Douglas, I am stating that Goose Green, Worsley Mesnes and Hawkley Hall are NOT in PEMBERTON. This article is very wrong.

PS. I've read your book on politeness, great read!!!

Is Pemberton part of Wigan?
Answer to message on Jhamez talk page ...... There has NEVER been any argument that Pemberton is 'part of' the Borough of Wigan. The Local Government board (now the Boundaries Commission) ruled on the inclusion of Pemberton, into the Wigan 'County Borough', on the 21st April, 1904. Pemberton is, nowadays, in the Metropolitan Borough of Wigan (along with many other towns). It is also in the Wigan 'Postal Area' (along with many other towns, some of which are not in Wigan Borough). 'Council Areas' do not form 'places'. Places are sometimes split between administrative bodies (councils) but the places are still within the same 'place boundaries'. The Council have nothing to do with it, neither do the Royal Mail, or the National Statistics Office. Wigan has small settlements within it, so has Pemberton. Pemberton has 'marked boundaries' and is separated from Wigan by these boundaries. 80.193.161.89 09:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.


 * 'marked boundaries' 'place boundaries'. What does that mean? Who keeps a record of these boundaries? What sources can confirm them? What is significant is that in 1904 the Pemberton parish was transferred to Wigan County Borough, retaining its own boundaries and not incorporated at that stage into the larger Wigan parish (although as you say, it was part of the borough). However, in 1920 the parish was abolished and the area absorbed into the Wigan parish. These are two different events and I would agree that in 1904 Pemberton was not part of Wigan (although part of the borough), but from 1920 it is. MRSC • Talk 13:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Boundaries. Boundaries relate to different things. There are boundaries outlining your house from the house next door. There are boundaries outlining your street/road from the next street/road. Pemberton is called Pemberton, is it not? Could you stand in one place and say "I am now stood in Pemberton"? Yes, of course you could, because Pemberton exists. Now, if you walked towards Wigan from that spot, crossed the River Douglas and said "I am now stood in Pemberton", you would be wrong, because you would be stood in Wigan. The boundaries that separate Pemberton and Wigan exist. Think about it, they must do for one place to be called Pemberton and the other Wigan. The 'Boundary Commission' only changes 'local government/administrative boundaries', not the boundaries of places. Pemberton was 'included' in the 1904 creation of Wigan County Borough for a purpose. That purpose was local government (council). Parish of Wigan contained many other places that weren't even in the Wigan County Borough, not only Pemberton and Wigan. OK, Parish. Meaning? Parish is the lowest level of local government, so Pemberton was in 'Wigan County Borough', much higher than 'Parish'. BUT, Pemberton is still a place, called Pemberton, with boundaries which outline where it is and all it's integral settlements are within those boundaries. The boundaries are listed in the Land Registry and are citeable in land law. 80.193.161.89 19:10, 30 March 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.


 * Can you find some sources that state that it is within the remit of HM Land Registry to decide the boundaries of places and, more importantly, a specific citation for the boundaries of Pemberton that you allude to? MRSC • Talk 19:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You said (above) "...... and includes smaller localities such as Pemberton, Greater Manchester,...". However, Pemberton is a much 'bigger' place than Wigan. 'Wigan' includes smaller localities such as Swinley, Beech Hill, Springfield, Marylebourne, Scholes and Poolstock. Pemberton also includes smaller localities such as Worsley Mesnes, Goose Green, Worsley Hall, Norley Hall, Marsh Green and Kitt Green. Then there's 'Winstanley', next to Pemberton, which contains Highfield. The population figure for these places 'together', which the borough council call 'Wigan North and Wigan South' is 73,184 (official) [].


 * Here ...... [] ....... is a link to show you ALL the townships which the 'Parish of Wigan' covers. As you can see, there are a number of places included which are not in either the 'County Borough of Wigan' or the 'Metropolitan Borough of Wigan'. WIGAN is included in the Wigan Parish. If 'everywhere' was Wigan, there would be no need to list all the other places, just Wigan! 80.193.161.89 12:00, 31 March 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.


 * JemmyH look when the source was published, 1911, Wigan changed in 1920. This has been explained.Man2 12:45, 31 March 2007 (UTC)Man2


 * I'm sorry, these sources do not state that it is within the remit of HM Land Registry to decide the boundaries of places and, more importantly, do not contain a specific citation for the boundaries of Pemberton that you have alluded to. MRSC • Talk 13:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Now, looking at the map provided by Jhamez, (and, presumably, accepted as a 'reliable source') the town of Wigan is clearly outlined, separate from Pemberton, and Pemberton is clearly outlined, separate from Wigan. The map also shows Hindley, Upholland and Billinge as being in Wigan Parish. Wigan is also in the same parish as the aforementioned, here is a link to show the Wigan outline ... []. There has still been NO sources provided that states Pemberton is 'in' Wigan, but many to show that it is in Wigan 'Metropolitan Borough', 'Parish' etc.. 80.193.161.89 20:01, 5 April 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.
 * Contributed by Jhamez .... 'In 1920, the Pemberton parish was abolished and its former area was used to enlarge the Wigan parish, making the area of the parish and county borough identical.' With this link ...... [].


 * You're going over old turf again. These are sources of historic origin that you have provided; please find a sorce that states it is within the remit of HM Land Registry to decide the boundaries of places and, more importantly, find a specific citation for the boundaries of Pemberton that you have alluded to.


 * I've added more sources to the article - I searched for material that tried to back up your statements, but merely found the contrary, and so I had to add them regardless. I'm afraid that more of this kind of contention is frankly unhelpful to the project.


 * I must also add that you are currently blocked for persuing distruptive editting; please spend some time thinking about your contributions to Wikipedia and the way you approach adding content talk pages. Further distruption could see a block placed upon your IP. This is also inline with the comments I've left on your talk page. Jhamez84 21:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

-- Although Pemberton is not actually part of the 'town' of Wigan, it has been within the Wigan 'Parish' far longer than from 1920, which is stated in the text. Please consult http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=41379&strquery=wigan%20parish for confirmation of this. I believe the joining of Pemberton and Wigan was purely an administrative matter concerning the 'county borough' and that the Pemberton council was 'dissolved' rather than 'abolished' as said here. Colin.

Picture of 'Carnegie Library'
Is this not something of a misnomer, as that building's function has not been a library for over a decade now? (sevendaughters 08:07, 15 July 2009 (UTC))

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