Talk:Pembrokeshire/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: Ykraps (talk · contribs) 09:33, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Okay, looks like there's plenty to do here. Expect some comments over the next few days. In the meantime it might be a good idea to take a look at WikiProject UK geography/How to write about counties and any Good or Featured county articles, such as Dorset. I'm busy in real life so comments might come sporadically and the review may take a little longer but given the amount of work here, that might suit.--Ykraps (talk) 09:33, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
 * 1) Is it reasonably well written?
 * A. Prose quality:
 * Examples:
 * "Pembrokeshire contains a predominantly coastal park, Pembrokeshire Coast National Park, which includes a 186-mile walking trail, the Pembrokeshire Coast Path" - Why not, "Pembrokeshire Coast National Park is predominantly coastal and includes a 186-mile walking trail, the Pembrokeshire Coast Path"? ✅
 * "Rocks now found in Pembrokeshire were formed more than 290 million years ago; the youngest rocks, from the Carboniferous period, contain the Pembrokeshire Coalfield, the older rocks being Pre-Cambrian. Younger rocks have been lost by subsequent geological processes. The land on which Pembrokeshire is today was established approximately 60 million years ago by a combination of uplift and falling sea levels". – Why not, "The rocks in the county were formed between 600 and 290 million years ago. More recent rock formations were eroded when sea levels rose 80 million years ago, at the end of the Cretaceous Period . Around 60 million years ago, the Pembrokeshire landmass emerged through a combination of uplift and falling sea levels"? ✅
 * B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
 * Lots of missing sections, such as:
 * ✅ Demography - which needs to include population, historical population, ethnicity and religion as a minimum
 * ✅(apart from comparative figures) Economy - Some of the stuff you have in the industry section ought to go here, Principal industries, major employment sectors and what percentage they contribute to the local economy, traditional or former sectors, a comparison of GVA with the rest of the region and the country (England and Wales), employment figures, working population and other related figures if not already mentioned in demography
 * ✅ Politics - which should include some of the stuff in the existing local government section, any Unitary Authorities, MPs, parliamentary constituencies, council make up, tiers of governance etc
 * Religious sites - churches, cathedrals and places of worship of other religions. You can also expand on religions here, beyond what would normally go in the demographics section
 * ✅ A culture section, while not compulsory, would be good. You can add notable people, local cuisine, festivals and other gatherings, museums and art galleries, parks and gardens, any local dialects etc
 * Consider also a Toponymy section.
 * 1) Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
 * A. References to sources:
 * B. ✅ (all, I believe) Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
 * - As a bare minimum, every paragraph should be referenced to a reliable source and there are lots of paragraphs missing citations, including:
 * 5 in Geography section,
 * 1 in History,
 * 2 in Local Government,
 * 4 in Industry,
 * ✅ 1 in Education and Health, and
 * all 3 in Notable people.
 * There may be others and I've yet to verify the claims against the sources or check the sources for reliability.
 * There may be others and I've yet to verify the claims against the sources or check the sources for reliability.


 * C. No original research:
 * 1) Is it broad in its coverage?
 * A. Major aspects:
 * - Nearly every section fails this. Only Transport and Sport, at a quick glance, seem reasonably comprehensive.
 * B. Focused:
 * 1) Is it neutral?
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) Is it stable?
 * No edit wars, etc:
 * 1) Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
 * A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
 * - All the photographs are okay but not sure about the County Council logo or flag. I will need a second opinion here.
 * User:Ritchie333 seems to think copyright is okay so that's good enough for me.
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * See User:Ritchie333's comments below.
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * Following comments below and at [], I am closing this review.--Ykraps (talk) 06:21, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
 * See User:Ritchie333's comments below.
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * Following comments below and at [], I am closing this review.--Ykraps (talk) 06:21, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Image copyrights
Second opinion here ....
 * File:Flag of Pembrokeshire.svg is okay as it is an original piece of work using a logo that does not appear to meet the threshold of originality (see also File:Best Western logo.svg as referenced in that article)
 * File:Pembrokeshire County Council Logo.svg has a fair-use rationale, so that's okay
 * What is File:Welsh speakers in the 2011 census.png doing in the History section?
 * File:Pembroke Power Station-Geograph-3601523-by-David-Medcalf.jpg doesn't look as good as the other photos, I'd remove it
 * A lot of the photos seems to have just been put in the article in random places, without captions that explain why they're there and how the picture benefits the reader's understanding.
 * I don't think File:Sarah Waters2.jpg is a particularly appropriate image as she is not strongly identified with Pembrokeshire. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  17:52, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Geography section

 * ✅ "Pembrokeshire is a maritime county" - What does that mean? Is it a county on the coast, a county that has been historically involved in a maritime industry such as fishing, or something else?
 * ✅ "The local economy relies heavily on tourism but agriculture is still important" - Do you mean, "...but agriculture is also important", or do you mean that agriculture was the most important historically and is still important today but not as so?
 * "The historic county town, Haverfordwest, is the largest and houses the administrative headquarters" - If it still houses the administrative HQ, then it must surely still be the county town.
 * Okay, I've just seen our Haverfordwest article and it says it is the county town so presumably you mean the town is historic in some way. I think I would be even more inclined to have a settlements section where you can say how it's historic, how old it is, how long it's been the county town etc
 * ✅ Consider a separate Settlements section in which you could say more about Haverfordwest, Pembroke, Pembroke Dock, Milford Haven, Fishguard, Tenby, Saundersfoot, Narberth, Neyland and Newport and St David's.
 * "The county's coastline comprises internationally important seabird breeding sites" - this definitely needs expanding. Who says so? What makes them important? Do the areas have any special status (RAMSAR, SSSI etc)?
 * ✅ A Climate section and climate table is needed.
 * Everything above needs a reference to a reliable source.
 * ✅ "A large estuary and natural harbour at Milford Haven cuts deeply into the coast, formed by the confluence of the Western Cleddau (which goes through Haverfordwest), the Eastern Cleddau and rivers Cresswell" - The sentence is a bit confusing but more importantly, the source used doesn't say that.[] It does say however that tidal water reaches within 10 miles of anywhere in the county due to a large ria, which is just as interesting.
 * ✅ I can't see where this source [] says the stones of Stonehenge came from Mynydd Preseli.
 * ✅ I was going to say Pembrokeshire potatoes can't be that famous because I've never heard of them. Clearly I'm an ignoramus! Here's a source you can use [] but consider putting it in a Culture section.
 * ✅ [][] These sources could be better used; the first talks about 14 nature reserves and internationally important breeding sites, so it can be used to reference the earlier sentence.

Geoloogy section

 * ✅ "Rocks now found in Pembrokeshire were formed more than 290 million years ago; the youngest rocks, from the Carboniferous period, contain the Pembrokeshire Coalfield, the older rocks being Pre-Cambrian" - No mention of Pembrokeshire coalfield in the source.
 * ✅ "...meltwater from which cut the river valleys seen across the county today". Source doesn’t say that. It says the meltwater deepened existing river valleys.
 * ✅ "About 20,000 years ago the Irish Sea ice sheet deposited areas of clays". Source doesn’t say that. It says the area was scraped clean of soil and vegetation by the ice sheet.
 * ✅ [] This source talks about the blue stones from Stonehenge being taken from the Presseli hills but I’m not convinced it’s reliable.
 * ✅ I will have to WP:AGF with regards to the source here, as I can only really see mention of the 1892 quake. I am wondering though whether this information isn’t a bit WP:UNDUE?
 * "Pembrokeshire's diverse range of geological features was a key factor in the establishment of the Pembrokeshire Coast National Park and a number of sites of special scientific interest (SSSIs)". This needs expanding on. If you can find a source, you can give examples of what these geolocical features are. The source mentions wave-cut platforms, for example.

History

 * Although at first glance this section looks well reference, the page numbering needs to be more targeted. A single reference with multiple page numbers or a reference for a single small sentence covering five pages is not really sufficient for a good article.
 * ✅ A more even spread is needed. Half of the section takes us to the 13th century, a couple of paragraphs take us to the 18th century then there is a couple of sentences dealing with the rest of the county’s history.
 * ✅ "The Laws in Wales Act 1535 divided the county into hundreds, which followed with some modifications the boundaries of the cantrefs, ancient jurisdictions which went back to before the Norman conquest" - Needs a reference.
 * ✅ "The GENUKI web pages on Pembrokeshire include a list of the parishes within each hundred" - This simply isn't necessary in the main text.
 * ✅ [] - This source doesn't say anything about 1536.
 * ✅ "In 1649 the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland began when its forces sailed from Milford Haven" - Giving the date of this as 13 August will at least make it easier to find the reference in the source.[]

Flag
✅ *If you decide on a culture section, this is something that can go in it. ✅ *Not sure what this reference is supposed to be citing.[]
 * Try and find something to say about who designed it, that it was chosen from entries to a competition in 2006 etc.
 * Look for a better source such as a newspaper article; this [] doesn't look reliable.

Local Government

 * ✅ This section ought to be entitled "Politics" and should include: Parliamentary constituencies, most recent election results, MPs, Local government structure, councillors, and the like.
 * ✅ Focuses too much on the 1974 local government reform and very little else.
 * ✅ "There are 80 local Communities (the successors to civil parishes) in the county which have their own councils" - needs a source.
 * ✅ "See the foot of this page for a list of Communities" - If you want to add the communities as a footnote, fine, but I don't think this sentence should be in the main body of text.

, That should do for a start. If I see significant work being done, I'm prepared to keep this open and add further comments as we go. If no progress is made within 7 days, I will close this as a fail. If you think this is beginning to look like too much work (and there's more to come), you might want to consider withdrawing the nomination and opening up a WP:Peer review.--Ykraps (talk) 20:37, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Response by nominator
Thanks and  for your detailed comments. As there is quite a lot to do, and I don't think I could do it in 7 days, I think should withdraw the nomination, work on the article, and then re-nominate it. I hadn't realised there was so much that needed doing. Do you know: Thanks very much for your hard work; I'll do my best to justify your efforts.  Tony Holkham   (Talk)  22:54, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * (a) how I withdraw the nomination,
 * (b) whether I can re-nominate or must someone else do it,
 * (c) does a specific time have to elapse before re-nomination and finally
 * (d) will this GA page remain so I can use your comments to work on to improve the article?

Update November 2016
I have made a start. I'm not sure how long it's going to take! But well worth doing.  Tony Holkham   (Talk)  00:18, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Education
❌ Use this source [] to add a couple of sentences about exam results in Pembrokeshire.--Ykraps (talk) 13:30, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Geography
✅ Use this [] to say what percentage of the county is common land and how that compares to Wales as a whole.--Ykraps (talk) 13:15, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

There’s almost enough info here [] for a separate article. Section 6 is particularly useful. Use 6.1 to provide and reference information about the county’s geographical landforms and its geology Use section 6.2 to reference and provide more information regarding the county’s most westerly position, mild oceanic climate, local wildlife, the islands, inlets and estuaries, areas of saltmarsh, local flora, farmland in lowland areas, areas of woodland, heathland, ridges and slopes. Use 6.3 to reference Pembrokeshire’s internationally important coast, marine and lowland heathland habitats. Say also in what respect it’s nationally important. Say that 6% of the county has SSSI status.

Basically, if you summarise section 6, you’ve got a pretty comprehensive geography/geology section.--Ykraps (talk) 13:17, 2 December 2016 (UTC)