Talk:Penal law (British)

New article on Irish Penal Laws?
How about we incorporate the Irish section into a new article on the Irish Penal Laws? El Gringo 21:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * its large enough - go ahead ClemMcGann 19:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Repeal
While credit should be given to Daniel O'Connell for the repeal of these laws, the French influence needs to be mentioned. After the French Revolution, refugees "for crown and altar" fled France and were welcomed in England. Masses were said in some of the great houses, and at least one army barracks, when doing so was actually illegal! ClemMcGann 23:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Clarendon Code?
"Five of them became known as the Clarendon Code, after Edward Hyde, 1st Earl of Clarendon, though he was not their author, nor did he fully approve of them." Would it be unreasonable to suggest to that these be specified, or (better yet) discussed? ThaddeusFrye 04:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I came across a section on the Clarendon Code in the Act of Uniformity wikipedia article, so I've basically pasted that section into this article, since "Clarendon Code" redirects here. I should note however that this page originally stated that there were 5 acts in the CC, whereas the Act of Uniformity article stated that there were just four.  Perhaps there's some disagreement on this point?  ThaddeusFrye 06:50, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

penal as identical to criminal law
my understanding being that 'penal law' would refer to the body of law that specifically governs in situations related to the prison/within criminal justice system, rather then 'criminal law' in general which deals with any transgression against the law. 'penal law' would suggest that it pertains to the rights of prisoners, or the rights of people within the 'penal system', which are different then those of people in the conventional 'civil system' (which seems true, as they are imprisoned, which under any other circumstance would be a violation of their 'inalienable rights'), and that the system by which decisions are made and punishments determined for people within the 'penal system' would likewise be different: (although if this principle were taken and extended it could arrive at a 'bill of prisoner's rights' which, in application, would be 'cruel and unusual' by conventional standards) this is not stated in the article, but i have no knowledge of 'penal codes' or 'penal law' and am simply addressing what i think is confusing usage. -- (sio6627) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.230.224.27 (talk) 16:54, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Moved here
I hereby move the introductory text to talk, as we already have a reference to the criminal law article on the top of the article.

"In the most general sense, penal is the body of laws that are enforced by the State in its own name and impose penalties for their violation, as opposed to civil law that seeks to redress private wrongs.  This usage is synonymous with criminal law and is covered in that article. "In some jurisdictions, such as Canada, penal law is distinct from criminal law even if it encompasses this last field. This is a result of federalism: only the federal Parliament has the legislative power to enact criminal law statutes, yet provinces can also attach penal dispositions to their non-criminal statutes so they will be respected."

Str1977 (talk) 19:48, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Note silence
Numerous Penal laws were produced by Elizabeth in the 16th century, which are not mentioned clearly here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.181.10.165 (talk) 13:30, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
 * See the laws of 1552, 1558 and 1570 and the like. The laws mentioned in the current version are mostly those directed at non-conformist Protestants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.181.10.165 (talk) 13:39, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely not
The current article about laws concerning English dissenters from the established church is not  remotely  the word's  in any form of English. American and British Google Books produces no results whatsoever for this meaning of "penal law" within the first 100 returns. It is completely foreign to Black's Law Dictionary (US); it completely foreign to the Oxford Dictionary of Law; it is a secondary historical sense in the OED.

This page has utterly no business being here. Moved. — Llywelyn II   14:00, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Note that the above does not prejudice future moves, if there's a better namespace for this: penal law (English), penal laws (English), Penal Laws (UK), the penal laws, or even (if it proves to be the primary topic) Penal Laws as a proper name. But in any form of English, lower-case penal law refers to general penal laws and not these specific ones. — Llywelyn II   14:17, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Edit: Jeez, what a mess. Penal Laws should probably either merge this page and the Irish treatment or be a dab page between the two. — Llywelyn II   14:19, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 10 January 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus. See little general agreement and good opposing reasons to keep the present title for now. As is usual with a no consensus outcome, there is no prejudice toward a new effort by editors to attempt to garner consensus to find the highest and best title for this article if its present title isn't. Happy Publishing! (closed by page mover)  Paine Ellsworth   put'r there 20:45, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Penal law (British) → Penal laws – This article deals, apparently, with penal laws in England (though it has a section on the same, later laws in Ireland, and a section on Great Britain).

In that sense then, this should be renamed Penal laws (England). Although all the laws, no matter where the locality, were British. Logically speaking then, the articles referring to the penal laws of this period should be directed to this one.

However, Penal laws should be the article name and the article Penal Laws (Ireland) be merged (and redirected) here. Penal laws and Penal Laws are currently redirects to Penal Laws (Ireland), with no option to investigate the other British penal laws of the period. The caveat is that there is a link at the top of the (Ireland) page which suggests that to investigate English penal laws, you should go to the Penal laws (British) page, which is inconsistent and inaccurate in and of itself.

I'm hoping a more knowledgeable editor can fix up my proposal with regard to syntax and placement etc. Thanks in advance. 75.177.79.101 (talk) 02:50, 10 January 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. bd2412  T 18:07, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for helping out. I should note that, as I was considering the mess of jumps, I had developed the idea further. So here is my final proposal:

...as "penal law/laws" are very generic and can refer to many things, perhaps British penal laws would be the best place. That is currently simply a redirect to the page Penal law (British), which starts with the intro, "In English history, penal law..." This is inconsistent.

In summary then: Redirects to British penal laws:
 * Penal Laws (Ireland) and variations (eg Penal Law (Ireland) etc
 * Penal law (England) and variants
 * Irish penal laws and variants
 * Penal laws (Scotland) and variants
 * Scottish penal laws etc
 * English penal laws etc

Redirects to a disambiguation page: 75.177.79.101 (talk) 04:59, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Penal law (possibly)
 * Penal laws (definitely)


 * I've fixed it up, putting it as a requested move since you apparently want the page moved (but also a merge) Galobtter (pingó mió) 11:06, 10 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Support Rreagan007 (talk) 17:04, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose the main proposal. Most countries, present and past, have or had defined penal laws or codes.  The generic terms are covered by the article Criminal code.  Nation-specific articles need to be disambiguated by the nation.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:24, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The concept of laws that are penal (i.e. criminal) is unambiguous, and there is no single country with a monopoly over the idea. bd2412  T 19:37, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose – other countries have "penal" law. Proposed title is ambiguous.  CookieMonster755 ✉  01:47, 28 January 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move to a more specific title
I suggest a move to a more specific title, e.g Penal laws (British religion) or Penal laws (religious conformity)

Penal laws against the Welsh 1401–2 and Penal Laws against Irish Catholics are very different laws and there should be more clarity on the scope of this particular page. Titus Gold (talk) 16:50, 23 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The Welsh penal laws are very different, but there is clear congruity between the British and Irish laws, and I just proposed an RM for the Irish article that would actually bring it in conformity with this one. I suggest we see how the arguments develop on that one, before moving to an RM for this article. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 17:30, 23 March 2023 (UTC)