Talk:Penalty shoot-out (association football)/Archive 1

Merge?
See my comments in Talk:Penalty kick (football) Qwghlm 20:31, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Illegal?
The article says it is illegal to remove the goalie under a situation with a red card. Is it really illegal, or just extremely inadvisable? Could a team theoretically have another player defend the goal for the shootout? I'm an American who is not familiar enough with soccer/football so I don't want to add false information. zellin 03:36, May 26, 2005 (UTC)


 * Zellin,
 * Only the player designated "goalkeeper" can defend the penalty kick. If the current goalkeeper is unwilling to do so, the team must nominate one of the other eligible players to become the goalkeeper. Note that - just like during the match proper - the role of goalkeeper can be swapped to another player.
 * Cheers, --Daveb 12:39, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

So should that part of the article be clarified? zellin 04:36, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Goal Advantage
Could a definition of what Goal Advantage means be added? If there was a separate page for it I'd link to it but I can't find one. JiMternet 20:56, 26 May 2005 (UTC)


 * "Goal Advantage" is not a term used in relation to penalty kicks, I've reworded that particular sentence to make more sense - what it means is that if e.g. the score is 4-2 and there is only one round of kicks left, then as the losing side cannot catch up, the shootout ends and a 'winner' declared. Qwghlm 21:52, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Name
Sorry, but the name of this article is appaling. I'm changing it to "Penalty Shootout" as per Wikipedia naming conventions. --Irishpunktom\talk 23:00, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * Kicks from the penalty mark is the correct name for the procedure, so the title wasn't really that appaling. However, it is true that this is not the commonly used colloquial term and as such a rename isn't out of order considering Wikipedia's focus on colloquial naming. --Daveb 09:29, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I have switched the terms in the opening paragraph to reflect the change of page title. JiMternet 08:44, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

MLS
If MLS shootouts weren't penalty shootouts, what where they? JiMternet 09:47, 29 May 2005 (UTC)


 * They were taken from 35 yards out, and the taker could have as many touches as they can before scoring - there was a time limit of five seconds or something like that. I don't think WP has a page about them currently. Qwghlm 10:16, May 29, 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, they were more akin to ice hockey shootouts than football (soccer) KFTPM. --Daveb 06:09, 30 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Oh...that's something I've never seen. Cool AND wierd.--84.217.3.197 01:16, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Redundancy Removal
I don't thik this was a redundancy - I read it as if they had now introduced an away goals rule in 2005. Anyone know for sure? JiMternet 12:18, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think you're right - Away goals rule says the same, but extra time is still not played - this also says the same. I've rewritten the sentence to make this clear. Qwghlm 12:09, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

Controversy section
Mark272, In answer to your concern expressed in your latest edit's summary line, the POV/quasi-POV statements I referred to were: I note these have been reworded in your latest edit, which has improved the section considerably. --Daveb 12:51, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
 * for their 'lottery' type status
 * Another method introduced to try and settle a tied match in a fairer way was the golden goal rule

Introduction of penalty shootout
Yosef Dagan, who was in charge of foreign affairs at the Israeli Football association, claims he was the man who proposed this method to FIFA circa 1970, following Israel's elimination from the football tournament at Mexico 1968 Olympics by draw of lots, as was the costume in those days. At the same year, a draw was also used to decide the winner of a semifinal in the European championship between Italy and USSR. Can anyone verify that the penalty shootout was in fact introduced in international football as a result of Dagan's proposal?

As far as I know, the first international tournament that authorised penalty shootout was the qualification to Munich 1972 Olympic tournament. Ironically, Israel became one of its first victims as it was eliminated from the Asian qualifying tournament in March 1972 at Rangoon by Thailand... a case of poisoning by its own medicine... --Nitsansh 15:52, 17 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Thats not true. I found several detailed sources includig the german Wikipedia ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfmeter#Geschichte ) that the penalty shooutout was introduced by referee Karl Wald from Bavaria. Maybe someone is able to translate. The story about the israelis introducing the penalty shootout is nonsense. The first time I ever read this was in here, nowhere else. --Baris 20:55, 10 July 2006


 * Karl Wald
 * "Karl Forest from Frankfurt/Main the idea of the penalty shootout. He found 1970 on the Bavarian Verbandtstag in Munich for of it with the utmost care prepared, today internationally valid rule a majority the delegated ones against the resistance of the English federation guidance. The German football federation (DFB) a little later took over the rule out, short after it followed Bavaria the European soccer union (UEFA) and the world union FIFA." I love how the machine translation has translated his name!
 * The Times of Malta certainly believes he invented them.
 * gives interesting quotes:

"Actor Peter Ustinov once described it thus: "A shoot-out is as if a great war is not decided by great tactics developed around a boardroom table, but by a bunch of chosen privates playing Russian Roulette."

"I always believed that I was right," Wald maintains, pointing to the many exciting penalty shoot-outs that have taken place over the years.
 * Yosef Dagan

was all I could find, a TV listing. On the basis of my research, I'm going to mention Wald and de-emphasise the Dagan claim while leaving it there. --Guinnog 09:28, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Players not taking part
''However, if at the beginning of kicks from the penalty mark one side has more players on the field than the other, then the side with more players shall select an appropriate number of players to not take part. For example, if Team A has 11 players but Team B only has 10, then Team A will choose one player not to take part. Note that it is not allowed to de-select a goalkeeper from having to take part in kicking from the penalty mark: players de-selected cannot play any part in the procedure.'' I'm sure I have seen at least one shootout where one team has had more players and all of them have taken part&mdash;I just don't remember which one :( Does somebody have a source for this fact?  rbonvall 04:04, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * This fact is just plain wrong. Everyone on the side takes their penalty regardless of how many men the opponents have fewer.


 * If this fact is indeed wrong, then someone needs to explain it to John Motson, as during the England-Portugal World Cup match he made a big thing of explaining that, as England were down to ten men, Portugal had to nominate one player who would not participate in the penalty shootout..... ChrisTheDude 11:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It was mentioned again during the BBC commentary on the final, so I think unfortunately it is the anonymous poster above who is wrong..... ChrisTheDude 07:57, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The shootout trivia page linked in the article does have one account of a penalty shootout in the Israeli Cup in which one team was down two men. It specifically says that two men from the other team sat out the penalties, despite the fact that there were more than enough kicks to go through the entire lineup. Pimlottc 13:40, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure the rule's purpose is to prevent a team from taking a red card late in extra time to gain an advantage (i.e. having your #1 kicker against the other team's #11 kicker).71.114.215.237 03:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Team starting penalty shootouts
I'd like to know how it's decided which team kicks the first penalty shootout. After the first kick, the next ones are of course alternating, but either I'm missing something or it's not clear from the article whose the first one is. Thanks. &#x2013; b_jonas 22:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * A coin is tossed to decide who kicks first ChrisTheDude 07:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the clarification. &#x2013; b_jonas 20:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to sound dumb, but...
Why is it that up until the Round of 16 in the World Cup, teams advance based on points, but then they switch to using the penalty kicks to decide? Is it because they need an immediate 'winner?' After reading this article I'm still not quite sure...


 * The first round works on a group system, where each team plays each other team in their group once. It isn't important if there isn't a winner in each individual game, as it is the overall position on the ladder at the end of the round that determines who progresses in the tournament. From group of 16 on the tournament is a knockout tournament, in which the winner of each individual game goes through, hence each game needs a winner. Cheers, --Daveb 07:49, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Which side?
In the England v. Portugal 2006 World Cup quarter-final, I noticed that all the kicks of the shootout were taken using the same goal. I assume this is to ensure fairness in case of a slight difference between the goals (just as the teams switch sides between halves). Is this part of the official procedure? Pimlottc 23:53, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I know this also happened at the second Australia v Uruguay qualification game, from a video on YouTube filmed from the crowd near the goal. I guess it is also to save the refs walking from one end of the pitch to the other.  I expect it would be official.  -- Chuq 01:04, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Chuq,
 * Yes, all kicks are taken at the same end. The referee has sole and absolute authority to determine which end will be used. --Daveb 13:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * So are you saying that while it's standard practice to use the same goal, it's not actually specified in the rules? Pimlottc 15:19, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Err, when I played football, back in the day, winning a flip of the coin allowed you to choose either wheter to shoot first, or to choose the goal to be kicked into. Does this help?--Irishpunktom\talk 15:42, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's specified.See page 53 in the PDF file. --D&#39;Olivier 21:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that the end used can be changed midway through a penalty shootout. I remember one international match a couple of years ago where many players were missing from the spot due to the poor quality of the pitch. In this case however the ref seemed powerless to do anything about it such as changing to the other end despite players from both sides complaining.

Who takes kicks?
Does each team decide for themselves who takes the kicks? I assume the captains give the referee the names and order for their teams before the kicks begin. Is that in fact what happens? or do they choose as they go? What about additional kickers after the initial 5? When are they chosen?
 * Choose as they go. You can only take one penalty, (Well, until the rest of the team have gone but I'm not sure that this has ever happened) and most teams will have their preferred Penalty takers, but, there is no arbitary list, and the Referee only notes the kickers as they come up to take the kick. The Goalkeeper, however, can only be the keeper in the goal when the final whistle was blown. --Irishpunktom\talk 15:45, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's happened many times Pimlottc 18:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Clarify World Cup Final Shootout
The article stresses several times a shootout doesn't actually "win" a game but only progresses to the next level in a competition.

What about a World Cup final shootout?


 * Well, evidently in this case kicks from the penalty spot are used to determine the winner of the World Cup. There could perhaps be some rewording to clarify this I suppose. I should think if you were being careful with your statements about such a situation you'd make sure to say that the match was tied but the tournament was settled by penalties, as in other matches in which a penalty shootout is employed to determine who comes out on top. 86.136.7.8 00:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Or you can think of "tournament winner" as being the next level after "final". In other words, if a team wins normally, by scoring goals, they have both won the match and progressed to the winner of the tournament level. Carcharoth 15:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Table
I think it would make more sense to fuse the Euro and Copa América columns into a generic continental championship one. -- Dissident (Talk) 23:58, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Before doing that, why not actually have a list here of all the penalty shootouts from the World Cup, European Champs and Copa America. That would be more informative than the table. There are only 41 after all (excluding the 2006 ones). Carcharoth 16:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Red cards or injuries during penalty shootouts
Can anyone clarify what happens with regards to red cards and injuries during penalty shootouts?

Firstly the goalkeeper and deselection (if there are an uneven number of players). This article says that it is not allowed to deselect the goalkeeper. I think technically this should be that you are not allowed to deselect the person nominated to be the goalkeeper. I'm wondering if the goalkeeper at the end of normal time has to be the goalkeeper in the penalty shootout, or whether a team with less players than the other team could deselect the goalkeeper and then nominate someone else to be the goalkeeper (it would silly of course, but this hypothetical scenario helps clarify what the rules are saying).

Which brings me on to red cards and injuries. It is unlikely (though not impossible) that a player may be injured or otherwise have to leave (sudden illness, red card, etc.). If this is the case, does the other team then have to go through the deselection process to even up the numbers again? And what if it is the goalkeeper who is injured or red-carded? Does that team then have to nominate one of the players on the field to take over the role of goalkeeper?

And do the yellow cards from the normal game carry through to here, allowing a second yellow to become a red card? I would guess that referees would try not to show cards, but sometimes they might be forced to by, say, violent conduct or distracting of the opponent. What happens if the red card or injury is given/happens just as that person is about to take a penalty kick? (Imagine if Michael Owen's knee had given way as he was about to take the winning penalty kick, or the penalty kicker starts arguing with the referee and is sent off before he takes the kick). Carcharoth 15:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * In the extremely unlikely circumstance that a player suddenly became unable to take a kick once the shoot-out had started, then I guess yes, the other team would have to deselect a player. In the case of it being due to injury, I don't think a substitute could be brought on, even if the team had not used all their subs during the game itself, given that play has technically ended..... ChrisTheDude 08:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It's interesting, but I once saw a match in the championship game of one of the lower divisions in the US where the game was played on a really hot day and all of the players had become dehydrated. One of the players strode up to the spot and promptly suffered from terrible cramps.  The trainers worked on him for quite some time (more than five minutes if memory serves), while presumably the referee was trying to figure out with his assistants what the hell to do.  He was eventually declared unfit to take the kick and another player was selected to take his place.  He ended up missing the kick and the other team ended up winning the shootout with their next shot, but I imagine that if they had come to the end of the first go around of players, the team with one extra man would have had to select one of their players not to shoot and bring the order back around to both teams #1 kickers.  Hope this helps.  I can assure you I was quite curious about what was going to happen myself.  Grant.alpaugh 09:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Can a player who has taken a penalty in normal time (90 + Extra Time) be included in the initial five for the penalty shootout? Or can he take a penalty kick only after the remaining 10 players have taken their kicks?


 * No, he can still be included. Only if you've taken a penalty in the penalty shootout must you wait for the other 10 (or less, depending on if you had a send off etc.) players. Killfest2 08:05, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * This is just a confusion of terms; penalty kicks don't have any relevelance to "kicks from the penalty mark" in the shootout, they are seperate things governed by seperate rules. Avoiding vague terms like "penalties" will help to avoid confusion. Pimlottc 14:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Alternatives section
''In another proposed alternative, the penalty shootout would remain, but would never be the final act of the game. Instead it could come before extra time and still only function as a tie-breaker if the former would prove to be indecisive. That way, the team that lost the penalty shootout would still be able to make up for the loss during normal field play.'' - I've never ever heard this (truly bizarre) idea discussed, this definitely needs a citation..... --ChrisTheDude 08:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I have heard this before. Don't think it ever got off the drawing board though. The idea is that the team that loses is encouraged to attack and try and win. Unfortunately, it also encourages the team that won the pre-match shootout to play for a draw! So that is probably why it never got any further. I've also heard proposals to replace penalty-shoot-outs, the best one being to remove two players (one from each team) every 10 minutes until a goal is scored. Or have one player (from the centre circle) against keeper and one defender. The main problem with these is that at the end of extra time, all the players are very tired. It would be nice to have something in this article (sourced, obviously) on the "other" proposals. Carcharoth 09:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh. The "remove players at progressive intervals" is already in the article. Carcharoth 09:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I can just picture some non-league game going to 80 minutes of "extra extra time", with each side left with three half-dead players trying to run the length of the entire pitch.....--ChrisTheDude 09:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * OK. Maybe allow extra substitutions during extra-time? A bit disadvantage of extra-time is that you see players cramping up, passing the ball around, and just generally running the clock down until penalties. Not all the time, but quite a lot of the time. In the World Cup at least, with those big squads of 23(?) players, you could effectively have a half-hour replay match with lots and lots of substitutions (say 5) after normal play. That should be enough fresh legs to see some attacking play to win the game. I thnk they already allow the three substitutes to be drawn from any of the other players in the squad, rather than having to nominate three outfield substitutes before the match starts. Carcharoth 12:36, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You're quite correct, all 12 players not in the starting line-up are available as subs these days.... ChrisTheDude 12:42, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

What is really needed is a way to discourage draws in knock-out competitions (they are already discourageed in leagues by the points system). Say a draw happens and a side wins a penalty shootout to progress. Apart from in the final, you can have "punishments for the next match" for the side that wins with a penalty shootout. For example - they have to win their next game, and if the game is drawn they are out. That might encourage the side they face to play for a draw, but the "draw and you are out" penalty then passes on to them! So all sides are encouraged to play for a win. Hmm. Can I patent/copyright this idea. It seems to have some potential! The problem being when two sides meet who are "out if you draw" - so sadly it looks like this won't work. Carcharoth 09:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

How about this for a way to do tiebreaks: during the extra time sessions, or in additional extra time sessions, continue playing as normal. However, expand the goal size by 1 or 2 meters. If nobody scores, expand the goal size again. This technique has the advantages of (1) not changing the nature of the game, just making it easier to score in overtime, and (2) encouraging more aggressive play, as the more aggressive team will have the greatest opportunity to take advantage of the improved scoring chance. The main disadvantage is the special equipment that would be necessary, but at professional and world cup levels, that should not be a major issue. jmauldin68 12 July 2006

Insufficient context template added
How come? ChrisTheDude 13:56, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I wasn't clear either. I took it down as part of my rewrite. --Guinnog 09:13, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm new.
Tried to revert Vandalism, accidentally deleted formatting. Let me take a another look. Foster2008 22:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

PSO? PEN? abbreviations
What's with using the abbreviation PSO? I have always seen either PEN used, or just AET and the score. --anskas 15:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I noticed that this abbreviation had been used extensively in the 2006 World Cup article, but I'd certainly never seen it before. In UK reports the standard usage is certainly of the style "Gillingham 1-1 Manchester United (AET, Gillingham won 4-3 on pens)" - ChrisTheDude 08:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. Shall we change the article? - anskas 16:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know what the normal convention is, but I assume the reason PSO is used on the World Cup article here is to avoid confusion between penalty kicks and penalty shootouts. Pimlottc 20:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, it would seem that PSO is used elsewhere on wikipedia, and on some websites, notably here. So I guess we just leave it. - anskas 23:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Introduction into the FA Cup
The article currently states "In the FA Cup penalty kicks have been used to decide the winner since 1995 (after a drawn replay and extra time)" but I have the NotW Annual 1992 which states that the shoot-out had first been used in the FA Cup in the previous season i.e. 1991–92 ChrisTheDude 08:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The statement says they were used to decide the winner - ie used in the final, whereas your annual only states they were used in the championship, not to decide the final. JiMternet 09:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Distance
What is the distance the penalty shot is taken from? Is it always 12 yards? Or is it different depending on the League and rules? timothykhoo 08:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The penalty spot is always 12 yards from the goal on a full-sized adult pitch, this is defined in the Laws of the Game ChrisTheDude 08:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, perhaps this should be included in the article then? timothykhoo 10:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)`
 * It already says "Each kick is taken from the penalty mark", I've wikilinked this rather then bog down this article with description ChrisTheDude 10:09, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

the highest-scoring shoot-out in history
I believe the following statement: 'On June 20 2007 at the Under 21 European Championships in the Netherlands, the highest-scoring shoot-out in history was recorded, with the Netherlands defeating England in the first semi-final 13-12.' To be incorrect. See: http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/penalties.html#high

Origins of P.S.
It seems that the first penalty shootout took place in the most famous Spanish summer friendly tournament, Ramon de Carranza, held in Cadiz, in its 8th edition (1962). It was a proposal from a local journalist named Rafael Ballester: Spanish wikipedia Pikulin 19:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Requested move
Penalty shootout (football) → Penalty shootout (association football)- The move would be in-line with the recent moving of the page Football (soccer) to Association football.--Lucy-marie (talk) 11:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Football is an ambiguous word when talking about sport. Other sports by the same name may have their own versions of penalty shoot outs. To avoid ambiguity and to stay iniline with recent other moves for association fotball this article should be moved appropriatly.}}--Lucy-marie (talk) 13:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.


 * Weak Oppose. While the suggested title isn't a bad one, I'm not convinced of the need for the move - this is surely the vastly most common meaning of the term, simply due to the popularity of (association) football. The only other sport that calls itself 'football' and uses it, according to the penalty shootout page, is Gaelic football, and until someone writes Penalty shootout (Gaelic football) I can't really see the need for disambiguation. Terraxos (talk) 03:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose Penalty shoot-outs are not a factor in other codes of football therefore there is no reason to move the page ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose No need. --John (talk) 08:22, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose - no need. We need to consider accessibility as well as perfect nomenclature. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - Surly perfect nomencalture increases accesability. Redirects can be used from previous pages to increase accessability.--Lucy-marie (talk) 12:21, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - then perhaps you should concern yourself with whether shootout should be shoot out or shoot-out... The Rambling Man (talk) 15:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - the word shoot out is not ambiguos depending on how it is spelt, that is more semantical. Football however is ambiguous due to the variety of codes.--Lucy-marie (talk) 11:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Regardless, there seems scant support for your proposal. Common sense prevails over pedantry. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - All I am doing is initaing the disucussion and giving the reasoning as to why I have bought this discusssion. I have no plans to go ahead with this proposal unless there is support for this as no policies and guidelines are being breeched.--Lucy-marie (talk) 12:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Then dare I suggest we all go and do something more constructive like building the encyclopaedia now? The Rambling Man (talk) 12:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - Fair enough, I welcome as much discussion on topics as posible.--Lucy-marie (talk) 15:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion
Football is a very ambiguous term within itself. I am mainly proposing this move to move away form the use of the term football in the title of the article. The use of the term is gradually being phased out and article ames are being standardised, such as movig football (soccer) to Asociation football and Formation (football) to Formation association football.--Lucy-marie (talk) 14:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Consensus was to oppose the requested move. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Coppa Italia 1958 to 1960s shootouts
The RSSSF suggests some form of shootout was used in the Coppa Italia from as early as 1959: Repeat 1st round: - Mestrina(C)                - Treviso(C)                  2-2 (4-5 pen)
 * 1959

In subsequent years it looks like lots were drawn for the first round and shootouts only from the second round: 1st round (9 september 1962): Lucchese Libertas(B)       - Mantova(A)                  1-1aet. (*) Triestina(B)               - AC Torino(A)                1-1aet. (*) (*) Lucchese en Torino qualify after drawing of lots.
 * 1963

3th round (5-9 december 1962): -- FC Bologna(A)              - AC Torino(A)                2-2aet (5-6 pen) Hellas Verona(B)           - Lucchese Libertas(B)        1-1aet (7-6 pen)

1st round (9 september 1963): - Alessandria(B)             - Lanerossi Vicenza(A)        1-1aet. (*) (*) Alessandria qualify after drawing of lots. 2nd round (13 nov t/m 11 dec 1963): --- Alessandria(B)             - FC Genoa'93(A)              0-0aet. (3-4 pen) Padova(B)                  - SPAL Ferrara(A)             2-2aet. (4-6 pen) 3th round (12 april t/m 13 may 1964): - FC Genoa'93(A)             - AC Torino(A)                1-1 (5-6 pen) Semi-finals (10/14 june 1964): -- AS Roma(A)                 - Fiorentina Firenze(A)       1-1aet (7-6 pen)
 * 1964

Some results have no aet score, just a shootout score: (This is possibly just bad data. Note also the apparent lack of extra time in the 13 may 1964 game above) 1st round: -- Como(B)                    - Pro Partia Busto Arsizio(B) 5-2 pen
 * 1961

2nd round: -- Sampdoria Genova(A)        - Prato(B)                    7-6 pen.

Semi-finals: Fiorentina Firenze(A)      - Juventus Torino(A)          3-1 Lazio Roma(A)              - Torino(A)                   1-1 (6-5 pen) 3/4 Position: - Juventus Torino(A)         - Torino(A)                   2-2 (5-4 pen)

I am surprised that amid talk of the 1968 Olympics and 1970 Bavarian FA this has not been mentioned. The scores in these shootouts look odd: lots of 7-6 and 6-5 results and nothing like, say, 3-1.

This one can't have been sudden death: Semi-finals (9 june 1965): -- AS Roma(A)                 - Inter Milano(A)             2-2aet. (6-8 pen)
 * 1965

Then there is this beauty: Quarter-finals: --- Atalanta Bergamo(A)        - Juventus Torino(A)          2-2 (6-6 pen) (*) (*) Juventus qualify after drawing of lots.
 * 1960

Can anyone shed further light? --jnestorius(talk) 14:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Similarly for the Swiss regional Youth Cup from 1959 on; the 1966 result suggests replay shootouts rather than sudden-death:

Final round [Oct 14-15 at Breite Stadion in Schaffhausen] Zürich-Land		1-1 Zürich-Stadt	[5-4 pen] Bern-Süd		3-2 Nordwestschweiz Third place match Nordwestschweiz		3-3 Zürich-Stadt	[4-4 pen and 4-3 pen] Final Bern-Süd		1-1 Zürich-Land		[3-3 pen and 4-3 pen]


 * And a new antedating: Yugoslav Cup, 1952:

1/16 Finals: Kvarner Rijeka(x)          - Proleter Osijek(x)          0-0aet (4-3 pen)
 * jnestorius(talk) 11:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

De-archive
User:Lucy-marie archived this talk page shortly after unilaterally moving the article in the face of a consensus not to do so. I have moved some recent sections back out of the archive. --jnestorius(talk) 15:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I added a champions league section about recent finals (2000-present) and last years semi between liverpool and chelsea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.193.76 (talk) 15:25, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Refactor statistics
I would really like to move the statistics section off to its own page. Does anybody have an opinion on this? jnestorius(talk) 20:38, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Done. See List of national football teams by penalty shootout record

So what is a rouge?
In "Alternatives", a "rouge" is mentioned, but it is not explained what this is.--Roentgenium111 (talk) 22:55, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It was explained at the link Sheffield Rules but I've summarised in the article. jnestorius(talk) 23:45, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

FA CUP Penalties
Quote: "Until 1991, any number of replays were permitted, with a record of five" I know this to be incorrect. 23rd January, 4th Rnd, Chelsea 0 Wrexham 0. 26th January 4th Rnd Replay Wrexham 1 Chelsea 1 aet. Toss of coin decided venue for next replay. Wrexham won and elected to play at home. Hence: 1st February 4th Rnd second replay Wrexham 1 Chelsea 2. For the first time in history it was decided to use penalties to settle the outcome of this match if needed in the second replay. I went to all 3 matches and remember this historic match very well. IIRC it was due to a cold winter, fixture congestion and some form of industrial action making travel difficult. But I am sure penalties were used before 1991. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.217.66.135 (talk) 19:11, 26 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I take it the year in question is 1982. It's an interesting factoid if true, and worth mentioning in the article. If you have any citable source for this -- e.g. a newspaper cutting -- that would help. A match programme would not be sufficient.
 * On the broader question, your example does not disprove the statement that any number of replays were permitted; it was explicitly an exception, and there were many instances of a second or third replay in subsequent seasons. jnestorius(talk) 09:14, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Sources for year of introduction
It is frustratingly difficult to find evidence for occasions where penalties were provided for but not actually needed. Google News archive only gets you so far; someone with better access to online newspaper archives might be able to verify more. For European club finals, the changeover was presumably between 1974, when the EC final went to a replay, and 1980, when the CWC final went to penalties. It's also striking that in Euro 76 the teams were able to agree between themselves to use penalties rather than a replay; I can't imagine FIFA allowing the converse these days! jnestorius(talk) 09:14, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Rebound/Saved/Goal?
Does anyone know what the correct procedure is for this penalty shoot-out situation? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNC-gvoZEFM

Should this actually be a goal, as it has at that point rebounded off the keeper, and it appears at this point the kick should be over. there is nothing in the current article that actually covers it. Auto98uk (talk) 15:29, 10 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The ref was right, the keeper was foolish. The Madrid Rule paragraph is relevant; bouncing off the keeper and/or woodwork does not mean the kick is "over". Although the initial kick must be taken forwards, the ball's subsequent direction of movement is immaterial. The Madrid Rule is in fact part of Law 14 (for the penalty kick) rather than specific to the shootout; the shootout rules use Law 14 by default but obviously override much of it (where other players stand, etc). In Law 14, deciding when a penalty kick is "over" becomes relevant only in the rare case that the penalty is the last kick of the half. Obviously the funny incident in the youtube clip is far less likely in ordinary play. The final get-out clause is that the ref decides when a penalty kick is over. The match apparently (yahoo.fr) was in the 2010 Coupe du Trône eighth-finals; FAR Rabat keeper was Khalid Askri.  Maghreb Fez kicker's name is Mohamed Ali Benaamar according to this fansite, though I don't know which player on Wikipedia's team roster that corresponds to. jnestorius(talk) 18:52, 10 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply & clarification Auto98uk (talk) 13:55, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Origin
What is the difference between the early variants used in several domestic competitions and minor tournaments and the modern shoot-out that is credited to Yosef Dragen? According to this article in the Grenchner Tagblatt from today, the Uhrencup 1962 already had the form that each team had five penalties, but after they were still tied, they had eventually to continue until RC Brugeois scored one more than AC Como and won the penalty shoot-out with 11-10. -- Firefox13 (talk) 09:21, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, in the talk archives I found that the Coppa Italia and the Swiss Youth Cup had slight differences. Do we know anything about the Yugoslav Cup? It seems to me (and this is the claim of the article) that the Uhrencup was the first tournament that used the modern variant. Any other opinions? -- Firefox13 (talk) 10:03, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I did some investigations and found that in the first few years, the Uhrencup also only used a variant of the modern shoot-out, i.e. one player of each team had to execute all 5 penalties. Therefore, they don't seem to be the first tournament that used the modern variant, as has been claimed. -- Firefox13 (talk) 08:11, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Not moved) Mike Cline (talk) 14:10, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Penalty shoot-out (association football) → Penalty shootout (association football) – Should be moved as per number of Google and few more search. shootout is more commonly than shoot-out, and even shoot out is more than the one with the -. – HonorTheKing (talk) 13:35, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. &#9733;&#9734; DUCK IS JAMMMY &#9734;&#9733; 18:33, 21 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment. Looking at this ngram shows that the hyphenated version is more than twice as popular in books. Jenks24 (talk) 04:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I have opinion on this one way or the other, I just wanted to point out that the Ngram above makes no distinction between shootouts in football and in other sports. Sir Sputnik (talk) 06:14, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is a fair point. Jenks24 (talk) 07:18, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Grammatically, "shoot-out" is more correct than "shootout". – PeeJay 19:27, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: WP:HYPHEN recommends to "Consult a good dictionary". Relating to soccer, it's acceptable both with and without a hyphen: it's shoot-out in Concise Oxford and Merriam-Webster's Collegiate, whereas it's shootout in American Heritage and Canadian Oxford. Also, note that the article was moved on 2011-06-02 with the justification "Penalty shoot-out is FIFA Official term". SSR (talk) 06:52, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

1986 France v Brazil shoot-out.
I think the entry on this is wrong. In my opinion the ref was wrong to allow Bellone's penalty according to how the rules were at the time. www.home.roadrunner.com/~david.oshea/FIFA_LOTG_1986_e.pdf

I believe the rules on penalty-kicks taken after HT/FT (which I presume also applied to shoot-outs) were changed, not clarified, in 1987. signed Willlenzie Willlenzie (talk) 00:59, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Removal of dubious paragraph
Following Ron Vlaar's penalty in a shootout during the Netherlands - Argentina game at the World Cup, and the following media coverage which often quoted this article led me to the removal of a paragraph in the procedure section. My reasoning is as follows:

1. according to the laws of the game, penalty kicks and kicks from the penalty mark are two different procedures

2. the section in question is a "summary of the procedure" as "specified in ... Procedures to Determine the Winner of a Match or home-and-away (pp. 54–56) and Additional instructions and guidelines for referees (p. 130)"

3. however, as opposed to the other points on the list, neither of these sources contains the removed information or any information relevant to it

4. the one source (the other one is dead) linked to the deleted paragraph specifically covers penalty kicks and not kicks from the penalty mark

Although it does indeed seem (almost obviously so, let's be honest) that the deleted information applies in real life football, these are the facts. It's not in any of the sources for the kicks from the penalty spot procedure, and the reference that was provided does not support it as a part of a penalty shootout either. Hence the deletion. 89.176.87.169 (talk) 10:11, 11 July 2014 (UTC)


 * For the benefit of posterity, the edit in question was this one, which I have reverted. The correct procedure for dealing with references to webpages which are no longer accessible is described at WP:LINKROT. I have added an archived version of the missing reference, which makes clear the point in question. The fact that a strict reading of LOTG does not answer the question is therefore moot; a separate WP:RELIABLE source does so. I have however merged the two items into a single reference, since the point is proven by reading both together rather than by reading either on its own. jnestorius(talk) 14:22, 11 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I would direct you to points 3 and 4 of my post - it has nothing to do with a dead link. Even when the sources presented are read together, they do not provide the information from the deleted paragraph in a context relevant to this particular section. The two documents about kicks from the penalty mark do not contain the information in question, just as one of the sources used for the paragraph does not support its use for kicks from the penalty mark (IFAB ruling). And while the other reference which you linked to from an archive does mention this, it only does so when commenting about the changes in the aforementioned IFAB ruling (which, as stated previously, have nothing to do with a penalty shootout), and additionally I would question the usefulness of a "Corsham Referee Newsletter" as a source in light of neither official FIFA document supporting its conclusions. I have no wish to get into an edit war and but anyone who looks at the references can clearly see this. Out of the four sources, three simply do not support the inclusion of this paragraph for the procedure of a penalty shootout, and the fourth, the newsletter, only infers this from one of those three sources published by FIFA. 89.176.87.169 (talk) 23:32, 11 July 2014 (UTC)


 * You seem to be trying to base the article solely on LOTG document: that is a WP:PRIMARY source and Wikipedia favours secondary sources. The "Corsham Referee Newsletter" is written by Julian Carosi, a senior FA referee and editor of the Referees' Association magazine. On what basis do you assert that Carosi "only infers this from one of those three sources"? It seems more likely to me that Carosi had talked with people involved in drafting the IFAB rules. In short, Wikipedia ought to rely on what knowledgeable authorities have said about the primary source rather than trying to interpret that source ourselves from first principles.
 * If you are interested in primary sources, here is some of the history of LOTG on shootouts:
 * 1970: "the practice of drawing lots ... be discontinued, and be replaced by the taking of penalty kicks [sic] subject to the following conditions: ... 10. Unless stated to the contrary herein, the conditions of Law XIV [penalty kicks] will apply, in the taking of these kicks."
 * 1972: add "The FA Board decisions 7, 8, and 9 [when does a penalty kick end] shall be interpreted by analogy".
 * 1973: replace "penalty kicks" with "kicks from the penalty spot"; replace "the conditions of Law XIV" with "the conditions of Laws 5 [referees] and 14"; replace "FA Board decisions 7, 8, and 9" with "relevant paragraphs of the Board decisions in relation to Law XIV"
 * 1998: LOTG completely rewritten; laws renumbered and decisions merged with the laws.
 * Current:"Unless otherwise stated, the relevant Laws of the Game and International F.A. Board Decisions apply when kicks from the penalty mark are being taken."
 * In short, the reason for vaguely saying "relevant Laws of the Game" rather than specifying the penalty-kick law is not that that law no longer applies, but rather that other laws (e.g. yellow and red cards) also apply. jnestorius(talk) 11:46, 13 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I have nothing against including the passage, if it is indeed backed up properly and relevantly. Which I just don't agree it is - Carosi makes his argument based on previous rules regarding penalty kicks, not the current shootout rules used for the rest of the list. My basis for this assertion being that this is literally the only information we can extract from the newsletter without trying to come up with something that "seems more likely".
 * Right now the procedure in the article is laid out exactly as it is described in the up to date regulations, with the exception of this single point - which is sourced by the words of an authority, yes, but one citing an obsolete (1986 ruling) and irrelevant (PK x shotoout) document, hence my questioning its inclusion when contrasted with the other sources.
 * Even if we were to take the "relevant Laws apply" formula and attempt to use penalty kick procedures for a shootout, there is nothing to support this particular point either, as the relevant law (p. 45 LOTG) states nothing of the sort. There is no interpretation on my part, these are fairly straightforward facts: the article in its current form simply does not represent the current state of penalty procedure as laid out in the rules, because it includes a point not supported by these rules or relevant documents.89.176.87.169 (talk) 09:13, 14 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Carosi was writing in 2006, not 1986. Are you arguing that he was wrong in 2006 or that what he said in 2006 is obsolete in 2014? jnestorius(talk) 10:39, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
 * He is quoting the 1987 documents, to which my above complaints (not current & not pertaining to shootouts) apply. 89.176.87.169 (talk) 18:23, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * So you're saying he's wrong? Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but unless you have an external source to back you up, it's just your opinion. jnestorius(talk) 08:28, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I am only saying the extremely obvious: that a reference using obsolete and irrelevant information to the topic at hand should not be used to source an article about the current state of that topic. I am fairly sure that is not "just my opinion" but rather wikipedia policy. 89.176.87.169 (talk) 05:45, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Longest penalty shoot-out
I believe the entry on this is wrong. Quote: "The current world record for the longest penalty shoot-out in a first class match is 48 penalties during the 2008-2009 Greek Cup Final when Olympiakos Piraeus beat AEK Athens 15-14[47]" During this match each side took 17 penalties and 34 in total of which 5 penalties were missed. 

I think the longest penalty shoot-out and highest score in a penalty shoot out in a first class match was set in the 1988 Argentine Championship, when Argeninos Juniors beat Racing Club 20-19 after 44 penalties. Prsna1 (talk) 00:52, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Procedure
Para 10 of "Procedure" reads "The team that scores the most successful kicks at the end of the shoot-out will be winner of the match. If, for any reason, the referee didn't blow the whistle or calls something out and the opposition player kicks the ball, the turn of the opposition will not count, meaning that the turn will be skipped with no do over.". What (if anything) does the second sentence mean? If it does mean anything, it should be clarified and probably placed in a separate paragraph.Newburyjohn (talk) 09:50, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Removed the offending text.--Newburyjohn (talk) 23:03, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

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Some notes
It is to clarify that the authority of the referee remains in force during the procedure until that moment when he leaves the field of play.

Because only those players are allowed to take part who had finished the match before (therefore a player who has been substituted or sent off is not allowed to take part anymore), a team can't catch up on after the finish of the match, if it had not made use of (maximum mumber of) substitution before; only an injured goalkeeper could be substituted in that case. But also players who had not been on the field of play at the end of the match but who had the permission to play are allowed to take part (a player who had given notice of depature to the referee before, or an injured player who had already left the field of play).

Second coin toss partly determines which team will take the first kick because winner of coin toss is allowed to choose if the team decides to start or not (in contrast, winner of coin toss at start of the match can only decide which goal it will attack in the first half of the match).

Theoretically, a shoot-out could be continuated although the number of players is lower than seven, and the shoot-out could keep moving until both teams have only one player (in contrast, a match is to abandone when the number of players of one team decreases under seven).

If a team has to reduce its number of players (because opponent team is in minority) and its goalkeeper is be sidelined due to an injury laws of the game allow that the withdrawn player can remove.

Regarding history there has been a "special shoot-out" in Austria's First League 1979/80: When a match finished with a tie the shoot out followed immideately, but result of this procedure did only count for a separate ranking, called "bonus ranking". Result of the match (one point for each team) was unconcerned. Highest result was a 12-13 (without goals of the match), and 33 shots were necessary. It occured on April 4th, 1980, Sturm Graz vs. Linzer ASK (1:1 after the full time).

Regarding 1976, when as well Germany as Czechoslovakia decided to take the shoot-out, there the reasons for that were, that players of both teams were needed by their clubs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.225.15.186 (talk) 12:21, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Dear Sir: I am not sure, but there is nothing sayed about above-mentioned players. Mr. Hackett's info may be concern all players who were substituted or dismissed ones. If a team is in minor due to an injury (and there was no further substitution possible) the other team has to reduce. Let's wait; maybe there are other users (maybe Mr. Hackett himself) who can explain. Nice regards. --213.225.15.186 (talk) 15:17, 25 November 2016 (UTC).
 * "players who had not been on the field of play at the end of the match but who had the permission to play are allowed to take part" -- Incorrect. See Keith Hackett's discussion in You Are The Ref: No. 368, question 2.

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