Talk:Penitent thief

Question
Is the Southern California city San Dimas named for him?--Rockero420 21:18, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I think so... AnonMoos 05:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Why does Wiki’ assume readers are Christians? Many people in the world are, many more aren’t - suggestions: change dates based on thr Gregorian calender as BCE or CE at Common or Christian Era - even 2 of the other 3 major Peoples of the Book, the third are the B’ahi, not sure what calendar they use, use either a corrected ir uncorrected fot Solar Year Lunar calendar. Current data based on conremporary documents say the person called, in Aramaic, Yeshuah bar Yossef, was born in 4 CE and, based on the Christian Bible, died 30-33 years later, placing the Biblical trio’s deaths at @34-38 CE. (Given Roman Empire judicial practice, it is unlikely they’d only fo 3 at a time or on a hill, the Romans used to love lining both sides of a road with 100+ opponents of the State (not thieves, another reason for placing references to all faiths as According to -name of faith- or NOF’s traditions or beliefs - establish 1 standard for all)) Please keep a universal encyclopedia religion-neutral, its easy, just assume the person reading is of a different ine and knows a little of the one under discussion. Please take this under consideration and my partial changes as a model. -30- SHRDLU SHRDLU SHRDLU (talk) 07:24, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Google is your friend
"The only churches dedicated to St. Dismas are..." Burschik 14:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Several prison chapels are dedicated to St Dismas.Saxophobia 01:35, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * There was a priest decades ago in St. Louis, they called him "The Hoodlum Priest" (I saw a movie about him late one night) who set up a ministry to criminals called "Dismas House". It's a very common theme associated with Dismas. Fan-1967 17:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

His name is Dismas in English
Google results:
 * "St Dimas" 229 hits
 * "Saint Dimas" 94 hits


 * "St Dismas" 21,700 hits
 * "Saint Dismas" 2,100 hits

There's no comparison. Fan-1967 21:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

"Dimas" is the Spanish equivalent. Searches limited to Spanish for "San Dimas" result in over 356,000 hits.

Thief or rebel?
Can we have a reference please for the assertion that the "thieves" were rebels? Strong's dictionary online gives brigand, robber for leistoi, wih no mention of rebel. The argument for a political motive must come from the mode of execution. Some brigands doubtless had both motives, as with modern terrorist movements like the IRA, UDF and ETA. What was the typical Roman punishment for simple robbery by non-Romans? Execution or sending to the mines/galleys?

--JamesWim (talk) 13:42, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

The entire article needs references. There are statements throughout, such as the observation that Dismas may have been as violent as Barabbas, that appear to be the editor's opinion. Robert A.West (Talk) 22:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Rabbi Chiam Macoby’s Revolution in Judea and other popular (as opposed to academic) controversial works written at the end of his life and academic works from his younger days as well) point out that rebels, revolutionaries, protesters, majoor threats to the status quo and those followers rounded up at the time - think of the police riot in Chicago in 1969 for a modern example) rounded up at the same time were the kinds of folks the Romans used to love to crucifiy and oft leave rotting along roadsides to keep the population in check. Beyond that, possibly references in surviving. works, starting with documents from the Jerusalam Talmud, one ascribed to a Rabbi Yeshuah, and often attributed to Christianity’s central figure without evidence, surviving Roman contemporary records and Flavius Josephus’s dense histories of the time (keeping in mind he lived a guestimated 70 years later, was a Roman citizen, not an easy position for a Jewish guy born in the military “protectorate” called by its conquerers “Palestine”. He was witness and almost journalist to “The Jewish War”, the revolt led by messiah (term applied to religious/political/military/philosophical etc. leader, NOT eschatological figure/Roman Grk. Christos, Lat.Christ) Shimon bar Kochba, at Massada - his account of that incident proven excellent by larchaeology started in the 1950s by Ygdal Yadin, so his knowledge of Yeshuah’s life and death would have come a few decades before the writing of the 4 cannonical, and several apocryphal and pseudopigraphical Gospels (the former, like Thomas (English name) considered to be good enough, but we like the other 4 better, the latter, like the 5th Book of Maccabees considered biblical in tone but historical nonsense, fiction ir faity tale); pre-Paul of Tarsus and the actual New Testament’s canonization. I DON’T know how much of his work survives - would probably be the first written history by a well-known writer, and all of the commentary, debate, research, etc. over the last @2,000 years - there are still regular debates on the order of “Was Jesus an Essene” to “Were the Essenes ‘Essene” current opinion is no to the former and yes to the latter.l, would be the best places to hunt - the ones I know mainly from the mouths of teachers and Hersh Schenk’s popular magazine Biblical Archaeology Review all say protesters who raised problems, leaders and thise rounded up. Sorry box makes editing a problem but you get the idea SHRDLU SHRDLU SHRDLU (talk) 08:35, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Thief or rebel
I have added references from the Saints under title: Theological Signifance of Saint Dismas, on his main site. I hope this helps. MacOfJesus (talk) 09:27, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Also source material at the reqest towards the end of the main page.MacOfJesus (talk) 18:55, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I think, on reflection, that Saint Dismas was the only Saint Canonised directly by Jesus: "This day though shall be with me in Paladise".

MacOfJesus (talk) 11:38, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

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Request for references
I have put in sources / references where requested. These are meant for the ones I'v placed in, under: Theological Signifance on the article page. No quotations from copyright material. When I get the hang of the numbering process I will be more precise.

MacOfJesus (talk) 14:21, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The article says that Dismas wasn't named until the 12th Century, then later says the Gospel of Nicodemus calls him Dismas. That was written in the 4th century, according to its Wiki article.Rakovsky (talk) 01:02, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

The references given are from the evidence of the early Saints. If you believe that the Saints are in deep relationship with God, then their evidence is valuable. If you study the writings of Saint Augustine, Saint Athanasius, Venerable Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich, Maria Valtorta, Saint Paul, you will see there is something extra special here, that indicates their relationship with God. The Saint references given all agree on the article page, both the modern and the new, (That is why they seem to run together), and also to avoid quoting from copyright material. Saint Paul's letters (some) speak of what is yet to come! Only part of the evidence of Saint Dismas is History. The article page could not exist on history alone. His name would have to be substituted with "?" The references given (the books) are easily available today. If you need help, leave a note here or on my talk page. The Confessions (St. Augustine) would be a good beginning point. Once I saw this for myself I was "hooked", Patrology, is the usual name of the study. Saint Faustina claimed that "Mercy was/is the greatest attribute of God". Her spiritual director, Fr. Michael, did'nt believe until he found it in the writings of Saint Augustine, himself professor of Patrology.

MacOfJesus (talk) 09:03, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Please look at List of names for the Biblical nameless. MacOfJesus (talk) 12:14, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Citation Request
At the reference to the quotation from Saint Thomas Aquinas in the Article page an entry appears saying (Citation Request / Needed). The reference can be viewed in the books and periodicals in the references cited at the end of the Article page, or in the original writings of Saint Thomas Aquinas. (Sorry I'm not very familiar with the correct method in implying connection to references, at the end of the article page. I'm more familiar with pen and paper.).

The references from the Saints in the Article page are all evidenced in the books and periodicles in the reference section of the article page, hence citation is not needed as it is already there.

I was concerned not to quote from copyright material.

MacOfJesus (talk) 23:45, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

I have attempted to do this, as best I can. I hope it is OK.

MacOfJesus (talk) 00:41, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, I have put MacOfJesus' references into footnote form, as best I could; it could use a bit more work, but not from me. Belegdal (talk) 20:22, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Shared Feast Day
His feast day is shared with Our Lady's, Annunciation. So His feast day is seldom referred to as it is so overshadowed, and seldom celebrated.

MacOfJesus (talk) 10:16, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Mormon's view
I'm not Mormon, nor have read anything official about the their views on this. However, according to a few unconnected Mormons that I've talked to have claimed that "paradise" means "spirit world." Their definition of "spirit world" is pretty much the after life. To them the "be with me" section just means that they will both be in the "spirit world," not necessarily with Jesus. Their conclusion was that the thief was going to be in the Mormon's version of purgatory (I don't remember what they called it). To them, it was impossible that Jesus meant heaven, because they hadn't been baptized (a requirement for salvation in the Mormon religion).

If someone wants to follow up on all that uncertainty, go right ahead. Maybe this information is already contained elsewhere in Wikipedia. I haven't looked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.189.179.179 (talk) 04:58, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Proposed Page move
This should really move to Thief on the cross per WP:RS, the "Dismas" only describes one churches view and the saint box can be moved down into that church's section. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:28, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

Page moved to Penitent thief. This seems to be the consensus that developed at the end. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:06, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Saint Dismas → Thief on the cross – Relisted Mike Cline (talk) 17:43, 10 November 2011 (UTC) or possibly Good thief per WP:RS WP:NPOV and Google Scholar usage. The section dealing with the later name is notable, but tail is wagging the dog given that the names Dismas/Titus/Zoatham/Rach vary in different traditions and are apocryphal, that Dismas content is limited to 1 church only and that that church's paragraph says "The Catholic Church never formally canonized Saint Dismas." (unsourced but could easily be sourced). In ictu oculi (talk) 02:36, 22 October 2011 (UTC) Relisted Mike Cline (talk) 17:43, 10 November 2011 (UTC) please continue and weigh in on this discussion relative a specific move to Good thief Thanks --Mike Cline (talk) 17:43, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:Commonname. The name is certainly apocryphal, but it is the most common name. Flamarande (talk) 17:49, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Evidence that this is the common name? Andrewa (talk) 19:34, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support . The article gives four different traditional names, all of which would be unknown to the vast majority of Christians, while the person himself is extremely well known, it would be hard to attend any Easter celebration without hearing the story from Luke 23. The current name gives undue weight to the Roman Catholic tradition, and this despite the fact that many Roman Catholics wouldn't know the name either. Andrewa (talk) 20:17, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Vote changed to alternative proposal see below. Andrewa (talk) 04:37, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. The current name is not the most common name (per Google Scholar, for example), it is dubious (he was never canonized) and, of course, apocryphal. "Good thief" is probably better than "Thief on the cross" (as it distinguishes this person from Gestas, but both are better than "Saint Dismas". StAnselm (talk) 00:01, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Move to Dismas. "Saint Dismas" sounds inappropriately Catholic. Just plain "Dismas" is certainly more common. I get 752 post-1980 Google Book hits for "Saint Dismas," compared to 1,720 for "Dismas" without "Saint." Kauffner (talk) 01:36, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
 *  Support Good thief  as per Admin Mike Cline direction to comment on St Anselm's preferred move to Good thief, given that it distinguishes from the other thief on the third cross. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:09, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose: (ec) Which thief on the cross? The good, the bad, or the one Galba provided with a fairer and higher cross, because the murderous embezzler was a Roman citizen? Dismas seems the simplest form of the name, although hardly anybody venerated in the first millennium was "canonized." Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:05, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: Interesting point. Thief on the cross could mean either, while good thief good apply to Robin Hood. Good thief on the cross is awkward but arguably best in terms of WP:AT. And the arguments for moving this article seem to apply equally to Gestas. No change of vote as yet but considering. Andrewa (talk) 04:18, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm, this is difficult. We all agree the article should be moved - but where? Now I'm leaning towards Good thief on the cross. StAnselm (talk) 04:24, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Just another idea: Is there any interest in merging this article with the stubby but comprehensive (i.e. there isn't much to write but what is there is well covered) article at Gestas, and naming the result thieves at the cross or thieves on the cross or similar? Andrewa (talk) 04:30, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I could go with any of the above St Anselm/AndrewA proposals. I guess (don't know) that the Gestas stub may have the same core problem as this - 4 diff apocryphal names in 4 diff religious traditions... In ictu oculi (talk) 04:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And Zoathan and Chammata sound the coolest. StAnselm (talk) 04:38, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Move to Penitent thief: Upon further reflection, that's my vote now. Lest we think there will be a confusion with Robin Hood. And it has 50,000 Google Books results. And for Gestas, of course, Impenitent thief is much better than Bad thief. But I think the two articles should have complementary titles, so I won't post a move request at Gestas just yet. StAnselm (talk) 04:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. Unambiguous and widely recognisable. Andrewa (talk) 04:38, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. Ditto. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:41, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Prayer of Saint Dismas
May I have a consensus to place this prayer in the Article page. It is well known. Prayer to Saint Dismas Glorious Saint Dismas, you alone of all the great Penitent Saints were directly canonized by Christ Himself; you were assured of a place in Heaven with Him "this day" because of the sincere confession of your sins to Him in the tribunal of Calvary and your true sorrow for them as you hung beside Him in that open confessional; you who by the direct sword thrust of your love and repentance did open the Heart of Jesus in mercy and forgiveness even before the centurion's spear tore it asunder; you whose face was closer to that of Jesus in His last agony, to offer Him a word of comfort, closer even than that of His Beloved Mother, Mary; you who knew so well how to pray, teach me the words to say to Him to gain pardon and the grace of perseverance; and you who are so close to Him now in Heaven, as you were during His last moments on earth, pray to Him for me that I shall never again desert Him, but that at the close of my life I may hear from Him the words He addressed to you: "This day thou shalt be with Me in Paradise." Amen. MacOfJesus (talk) 16:47, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Source:www.catholic-forum.com Prayer to Saint Dismas......

Also in popular devotions... MacOfJesus (talk) 19:00, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Teller
I looked this up. And apparently using his given name first is preferred. See WP:MOSBIO. Dismas |(talk) 23:12, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Ummm, helllooOO! I already fixed it back before you came back along. What was supposedly "left to fix"? 174.23.128.98 (talk) 23:51, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Religious neutrality in Wikiland.
Due to my error, this got stuck under “question “ and I cannot seem to move it, my apologies. SHRDLU x3 SHRDLU SHRDLU SHRDLU (talk) 08:41, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:46, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Saint Dismas.jpg

Only person who was saved after death
It is debatable if the repentant thief is the only one who Jesus says was saved after death. Because, Christ also tells the repentant tax collector: "Today salvation has come to this house." Salvation would mean the same as being saved after death. Note that he does not tell even the apostles/disciples the same. To them he says: "John was the best among you, but John does not compare to one who is least in the kingdom of heaven." (Implying that John, after death, is also not in heaven.)

So, it can be said that the repentant tax collector also found Paradise.

Friday Morning Song
The song, "It was on a Friday Morning" was from the POV of the impenitent thief, not the penitent one. BTW, the citation says nothing about the thief; it only says that Sydney Carter wrote the controversial song. (Which was controversial not for the line "It's God they should have crucified," but rather for "To hell with Jehovah.") 173.185.126.0 (talk) 23:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)